Why do I only seem to see bolt rifles at precision shooting matches?

[BenY 2013]

Ok first off I will say that I may be totally misinformed, because I have yet to got to a precision shooting match. But I have seen tons of pictures of these matches and noticed that I only seem to see bolt guns in these pictures. Now I will also say I'm not hating on either system. I am a die hard bolt gun fan and just built my 1st AR and have to say I am loving it so far.

I'm just curious why I don't seem more semi-auto rifles at these matches? Is there a bolt gun only rule? Is one easier to shoot that another?

Not trying to start a "which is better" internet war. I am just honestly wanting to know why? Thanks guys!

Ben

 

[JimBianchi]

I'm a new guy here, but I know this one (I think)

Dollar for dollar and pound for pound, a great bolt action gun will out shoot a semi auto all day.

The bolt action being a closed system for the duration of the firing cycle, allows for more consistent and tighter tolerances than a semi auto. The nature of the semi auto has the bolt opening during the cycle and it must open to operate, this mean the bolt and chamber must have more "play" than semi auto to allow for consistent chambering. My best custom AR with a rainer ultra match Wylde chamber SDM 20in barrel will shoot .44 MOA if I do my part. Just in the gun I have about $1500 (built it myself). I shot a Mossberg MVP with match ammo and got a .45 MOA group. Bone stock, $500 gun. With a professional tune, the sky's the limit. (Both guns wore my Vortex Viper 6-24x50) A local shop here has a used benchrest 223 (I they wanted $900) that does .40 MOA for sale (using off the shelf match ammo, hand loads will really ring that one out), big honking beast at 15lbs, but it does one thing really well.

I know over on rimfire central they have several semi auto guns shooting incredible groups (1/4 inch at 50m and better) and there is talk of one pro shooters who seems to be transitioning to a full blown custom semi auto 22. But 22LR is a not really the same boat as center fire long range.

I think you could get close with a great semi auto, but at the top end competitions, bolts will always rule.

 

[nashlaw]

Never been to a match, but my brother has and he says that on some stages the gassers rule.

 

[PKT1106]

I think it depends on what the match calls for. If you are talking straight-up benchrest groups, bolt action every time. If you're talking tactical steel course with different positions, it may not matter as much.

 

[diverdon]

Other things being equal it is easier to shoot a bolt gun well. Semi auto's require a disciplined follow through that (especially in larger calibers) can lead to missed shots.

 

[cal50]

Because they work well.

(own both / like both)

 

[ArmyJerry]

different tools for different jobs

 

[sib1948]

Bolt guns rule in the Precision arena. That's why. Bring your semi and you'll learn her weaknesses. Besides when you run out of ammo, you can use a good long 16-18 lb rifle as a club...

 

[proneshooter]

I know over on rimfire central they have several semi auto guns shooting incredible groups (1/4 inch at 50m and better)

1/4" at 50 meters is hardly impressive. Whatever semi auto that is has a long way to go to hang with the Anschutzs, Grunigs and Bleikers of the world (all world class rimfire bolt guns).

 

[Captain Kirk]

When I started shooting matches many years ago I was one of the few running a gas gun (GAP AR10), I didn't feel I had any disadvantage using a gas gun over a bolt gun, and there were a few advantages. You need to be on top of your game when running a semi auto in a stressful match environment, they are far less forgiving than a bolt gun. I didn't notice this as much in training or practice, but when the clock was running and the pace increased, poor fundamentals or any inconsistency in form really shows up on target.

The way matches are ran now are quite different, there is far more positional and improvised shooting positions using baracades, dog houses, sumulated roof tops, and far less prone shooting than matches of years past. Many of these stages require "bolt back' during transitions or movement, this is not a issue with a bolt gun but it poses a big issue with a gas gun. The bolt back rule is pretty common now, it is a safety precaution that makes sense, it allows the RO to know the condition of your firearm at all times, visually and often times audibly as required.

What advantages one may have with a gas gun (not breaking position for running the bolt, mag capacity) is getting overshadowed by the newer rules of bolt back policies. These are a few reasons I choose to pick the bolt guns for match use over the gassers, others may have different reasons. As far as accuracy, most matches don't require less than 1 moa to be competitive (target size) which most AR platforms are more than capable of. Bolt guns do have a accuracy advantage, but I think there is more to it than just that, at least there is in my decision and experience.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

The way matches are ran now are quite different, there is far more positional and improvised shooting positions using baracades, dog houses, sumulated roof tops, and far less prone shooting than matches of years past. Many of these stages require "bolt back' during transitions or movement, this is not a issue with a bolt gun but it poses a big issue with a gas gun. The bolt back rule is pretty common now, it is a safety precaution that makes sense, it allows the RO to know the condition of your firearm at all times, visually and often times audibly as required.

What advantages one may have with a gas gun (not breaking position for running the bolt, mag capacity) is getting overshadowed by the newer rules of bolt back policies. These are a few reasons I choose to pick the bolt guns for match use over the gassers, others may have different reasons. As far as accuracy, most matches don't require less than 1 moa to be competitive (target size) which most AR platforms are more than capable of. Bolt guns do have a accuracy advantage, but I think there is more to it than just that, at least there is in my decision and experience.

This^ that and stages that have a very limited round count make running a gasser not as much fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Michael Courtney]

I've seen a few semi autos here and there at F-Class and long range precision rifle competitions where bolt guns tend to dominate. Guys with skill who take the time to understand their guns well and reload for them are usually in the middle of the pack score wise.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

A lot of people over-estimate how important the slight accuracy advantage you can get from a bolt gun actually matters.

As far as PRS and Tactical matches go: it's because the rules and course of fire are designed with bolt guns in mind. Kirk already hit the nail on the head; locking the bolt to the rear on a semi-auto is a three handed affair that will eat up time.

It might be different if you could flip the rifle to safe and go from there.

From a technical perspective; it's easier to make a bolt gun work in any caliber. Gas guns have to worry about port pressures that will affect operation. There are not a whole lot of companies doing large frame ARs in 6mm and 6.5mm.

 

[The Gump]

The recoil impulse is easier to manage with a bolt.

Semi's are finiky when they get dirty. I shot the grind this weekend. 3 stuck cases on the last 3 stages of the match.

It's easy to get carried away with the trigger and take shots you shouldn't have.

The distance from the center line of the bore to the center line of the scope is greater as well as the center line of the bore to the trigger is greater. This exaggerates any unintentional movements in cant.

 

[branson1369]

We see both at our matches and they both do well. The bolt back during transition is a limiting factor at some matches. We do not have that rule at Woodys and design stages so it is not necessary. Once stage completed we have them drop magazine and show clear similar to IDPA/USPSA/3G

With top shelf AR10's out there especially in 6/6.5 calibers they cane audibly hold there own in a tactical long range match

 

[MarinePMI]

I think Branson hit on it; "precision shooting match" can mean long range match or tactical long range match. Each type has a course of fire that is tailored for each (in my experience). Here we have both, and from my limited experience, the gassers rule the tactical matches and the bolts rule the long range ones.

Tactical matches are all about weird shooting positions and timed engagements. The long range matches are geared just for that;long range steel, with extra points for "heart shots". Shooting from an old dentist's chair at a 450yd target isn't that big a deal with a bolt gun. But make it 15 secs to get off 5 rds, and having to break position each time to cycle the bolt...gassers have the advantage, no doubt. That being said, when we start hitting 750-800yds, the gassers start running into issues. Is it strictly accuracy related? I'm unsure. This is just what I recall.

Horse for courses and all that...

JMTCW...

 

[TWANGnBANG]

I was going to say that I saw a lot of gas guns at Woody's August DMM match (fantastic match format and support, BTW). A friends who does well there said that for a while, guys running heavily braked 556 AR15s were at the top because they'd make up for precision with volume of fire, and the tactic worked.

That said, the best shooter that I saw at the event was running a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun, but he cleaned every stage. If I heard him right, he said he was getting 3150fps with his setup.

 

[SWRichmond]

I don't see any except the odd semi at F Class matches; others have reported lots of semi autos, even winning matches, but I don't think you will see any placing highly at Nationals.

Semi autos are better than bolt guns at one thing: loading. They offer a number of disadvantages, some of which have been highlighted in this thread already. One thing F Class has taught me: the round in the gun is the only one that matters, so make it count.

 

[TRAAV]

I was going to say that I saw a lot of gas guns at Woody's August DMM match (fantastic match format and support, BTW). A friends who does well there said that for a while, guys running heavily braked 556 AR15s were at the top because they'd make up for precision with volume of fire, and the tactic worked.

That said, the best shooter that I saw at the event was running a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun, but he cleaned every stage. If I heard him right, he said he was getting 3150fps with his setup.

I wasn't there nor know who you are talking about but I don't think he was running a "6.5 creed" at 3150.

 

[Red_SC]

6 Creed I'm sure.

 

[sawgunner2001]

Fuck Tapatalk. It keeps deleting 90% of my post.

Now that I'm on a PC...

I've found that I can shoot a good bolt gun <0.5 MOA consistently, whereas I can't shoot a large frame AR to save my ass. I've done plenty of mods to the large gasser, to include swapping one quality barrel for another, but the accuracy always blows. This has led me to the conclusion that I'm the problem, not the gun. Now, I can shoot small frame AR's just fine, but small frame AR calibers are gonna be tough to compete with at the matches I've been to.

To summarize, I've switched back to a bolt gun for anything that a 223 caliber AR-15 can't handle due my lack of ability to shoot a large frame AR accurately.

 

[Deadshot2]

I think the simplest answer is that whatever people win with is what you'll see at the matches.

On the other side of the coin, those rifles that are in the majority are statistically more likely to have the winner among them.

 

[Graham]

Why do I only seem to see bolt rifles at precision shooting matches?

Three reasons:

1) It's harder to shoot a semi as well as a bolt gun - less forgiving.

2) Heaviest bullets and slowest powders in a given caliber doesn't work in a gas gun.

3) Most comps don't let you move with the bolt closed and a round in the chamber.

 

[SMM123]

The type of competition matters. I only attend tactical matches where the organizers mix everything up to the benefit/detriment of the type of gun a shooter might bring. Therefor gas guns rule some stages while bolt guns rule other stages. This brings the skill of the shooter more into play in the ability to manipulate his selected weapon for the various stages.

As for the two and four-man tactical competitions, semi-autos are generally required for half of the team. When this is the case, it is extremely rare to see both halves of the team carrying semi-autos. To me, this says a lot about the desirability of bolt guns for long range/precision work, and semi-autos for everything else.

 

[branson1369]

The type of competition matters. I only attend tactical matches where the organizers mix everything up to the benefit/detriment of the type of gun a shooter might bring. Therefor gas guns rule some stages while bolt guns rule other stages. This brings the skill of the shooter more into play in the ability to manipulate his selected weapon for the various stages.


very well said above!!!

When designing our match we try to make it a challenge for the shooter and keep it even across right/left hand and bolt vs. gas. I run primarily bolt and Woody gas guns and both our team and individual matches have been won by both. My opinion it is about the shooter and who brings their A game on match day. We are not fans of making it a specific platform advantage by design.

Someone did say above it is harder to shoot AR 10 and I would agree getting used to impulse can take practice in my case it took a hard year to get my constancy the same with my Mega AR 10 as my Tikka. Young folks that have been heavy 3 gun or AR shooters seem to make the transition quicker than us old Grey Beard Bolt guys. I personally struggle more with the pistol grip control than the semi-auto aspect as all the new chassis for bolt guns give me similar consistency issues (over grip and cant)

 

[Rob01]

I'm just curious why I don't seem more semi-auto rifles at these matches?

That's called a clue

 

[taliv]

"precision" is still dominated by bolt guns. I don't think the "bolt back" rule is as much of an issue as it used to be, as it seems all the matches have gravitated toward letting semis move on 'safe' in the past year or two. There are definitely some "gas gun friendly" matches out there that allow them to be competitive. However, many matches are not. So if you are going to travel the country, you probably want to focus on something that works everywhere.

Here's an example: at one match I attended this year, there weren't limits on round counts for most stages and the times were generous. I watched guys with bolt guns get first round hits, and then guys with semis doing mag changes with pmag20s. Both got the same score for the stage. If the scoring put a higher value on 1st round hits, it would have been quite a bit different. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that the way scoring is done makes a difference. I'm all for DMR matches and letting guys with bolt guns shoot in them. And also precision rifle matches, and letting guys with semis shoot in them. Just don't assume what works in one is good everywhere.

I've been a match director for 3gun and also for precision practical/tactical matches. I've found a few things interesting over the years. In 3gun, most guys (like 90%+) tend to have their stuff sorted out and their semis run very reliably, but you always have a guy or two that can't get his frankengun to work. So when I first started directing precision matches, I was shocked at how many user-induced stoppages people had with their bolt guns. It was way more of a problem than I ever saw in 3gun. But it seems to have shifted over time. I RO'd the PTS PRS match in August and watched 100+ shooters go through my stage and almost every semi I saw had a stoppage, while hardly any bolt guns malfunctioned. I have no idea why, but it's been on my mind all month. The only thing I can think of is that guys are not practicing manipulating their semis. (and pistols too, for that matter)

 

[sandwarrior]

This is good observation/question. In the ten years or so that I've gotten the AR bug again (it wasn't a bug at first, it was mandatory) I've come to find how very accurate an AR can be made to be. The caveat to that is it takes an incredibly well tuned load to your rifle to get that. As posted early in this thread, the open vs. closed system where you have to allow for how the gas is dealt with makes a lot of difference. I've been able to shoot competitive groups with a .223 Rem/5.56 NATO, 6mm Turbo, 6,mm Hagar, and 6.5 G. But not competitive enough to win most benchrest matches. I can say that I've shot some very competitive groups with bolt guns. Recoil impulse makes a huge difference. Advantage bolt gun.

Also, as mentioned above, time between shots and volume of "accurate enough" fire stages lean heavily in favor of AR type weapons. When you can make three hits at 1k with an AR (6.5 g., three different people consecutively), it clearly outweighs what a bolt gun can do. You simply can't cycle as fast as a super-accuraized AR can. The question is, "Do you need three first round hits, or, three first round X's?"

On youtube you can find videos (posted here on SH a few years back) of a competition they do in Norway called Stang shooting. They give you 25 seconds to hit as many times as you can a target (one of various sizes) at anywhere from 100m to 460m. From what I've seen the competition is usually between R3's (Mil version of HK-91) and Sig-Sauer 3000's. The Sig's usually take the cake. Mostly because the R3's aren't as accurate AND they limit 5 rounds to the magazine. I can tell you that with that kind of competition, but not limited to what a magazine can hold, the AR's would win handily. Even giving the same quantity high capacity mags to the bolt guns.

So, when you weight a competition for bolt guns, they can win. But, when a competition is closer to 'real world' an AR will win every time.....or, at least as long as you have bullets.

 

[Randoman5]

I'd really like to try out something like a JP LR-07 or a GAP-10. Some of the best groups I've ever shot were with a friend's FNAR. Hopefully now that I've got a chassis and bipod my 700 will be able to match or better them.

 

[LongArm]

I think that the bolt locked to the rear is not as big of a deal as it may seem for AR's because if you game it (and every one does) you load more mags with the correct round count. Be sure to keep an extra loaded mag for SHTF. Most LR/tactical matches here in Texas have a round limit per stage. So if the limit is 4 for the first target then move to the next target with 2 then move to the next target with 4 rounds. Then I would load 4 mags. One with 4, one with 2, one with 4 and a spare with 5 for SHIFT. That way each time I move positions the bolt would be locked to the rear.

I have seen auto's clean house on stages and then I have also seen them choke due to dirt/sand and carbon. I have heard that lock time is an issue. ie. you see the target as your scope is bouncing across it and pull the trigger. Due to a longer (then bolt actions) lock time when the hammer hits/round exits you may already be off the mark needed to hit the target.