Why does no one make AW magazines

[Glassaholic]

Seems like numerous aftermarket mfr's make AICS cut magazines, but nobody makes AW cut magazines, does AI have a patent on AW? Is it possible to modify an AICS mag to fit AW magwells? In comparing the two the AW doesn't seem to be that far off from the AICS.

 

[acudaowner]

you found your nitch in to the market now hurry up and make a ton of money good luck I know you can do it make your own aw mags and get rich , well as rich as you can .

 

[IPoutdoors]

i’d like to see more options for AW. especially when using a stock.

 

[Supersubes]

Why would one want to put a AICs mag in a gun that takes AW mags? The reason nobody makes AW mags is the overwhelming vast majority of rifles can’t use them. Even some two lug actions that have magwell cutouts and feed ramps for AW mags don’t feed From them very well. I have some of those actions and none of them are 100% with AW mags. Some Users do have luck. Out of an AI rifle or a Tempest actioned rifle though, they’re magic. The AW’s are a double stack, unlike the AICS.

 

[NW Valkyrie]

I run AICS mags in my AW-capable short action only when I am:
1) Using non .308-based cartridges like SAUM, .223, Valk etc... that don't fit properly in AW mags
2) If encounter high round count stage since AW mags are limited to eleven rounds (they say ten but you can get an extra in when you need it)

AICS mags run just fine in AW tuned actions since the you can have plenty of slop in a single stack.

Just a guess on my part, but the reason manufacturers don't jump on AW mags is 1) very small number of actions accept them so the market is small and 2) most amateurs can't set up an AICS properly, much less AW mags. I imagine you would have to triple your support staff!

I would love to see an AW mag with ability to take extensions and include an adjustable mag catch built in the body like the Rim-X mags. But I'm not holding my breath, as I imagine the market is tiny and business case doesn't justify it.

 

[Andrew07]

I love my aw mags it sure do wish they made a 12 round one for those high count stages. Them being shorter helps in certain positions for sure

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I've pestered @MDT_OFFICIAL quite a few times about aftermarket AW mags. They've hinted that they're at least considering it, but that's about it.

As a Tempest owner (And about to have a second), I'd love to have options for either factory 12 round AWs or an AW pattern mag that doesn't have a welded bottom.

 

[308pirate]

I find it odd in the extreme that it's so "difficult" to make a bolt action rifle feed easily from a double stack-double feed detachable magazine when virtually all of them were designed to feed from a double stack-double feed internal magazine.

Can someone shed some light on that?

 

[MDT_OFFICIAL]

I've pestered @MDT_OFFICIAL quite a few times about aftermarket AW mags. They've hinted that they're at least considering it, but that's about it.

It's something we've given some thought too, but if we do it we will want it to be right.

 

[Glassaholic]

I understand the market for AW mags is not nearly as massive as AICS aftermarket. If a magazine could be made that was cross compatible - works with both AICS and AW cuts, that would be ideal. I've mixed up my AI mags before and stuck and AICS mag in my AT chassis and they fit but are quite difficult to remove, they even function and feed fine so I've thought what can I do to modify an AICS mag so it works in my AT chassis made for AW mags.

 

[Terry Cross]

I find it odd in the extreme that it's so "difficult" to make a bolt action rifle feed easily from a double stack-double feed detachable magazine when virtually all of them were designed to feed from a double stack-double feed internal magazine.

Can someone shed some light on that?

I believe you are incorrect.
Only a handful of R700 style receivers were designed to feed from a DS/DF mag. Those were the terrible 700DMs.
They were a half assed afterthought in design and sucked big time. F'ing terrible.

R700 style receivers are designed to feed from a double stack internal box but the actual feed lips are integrally machined into the bottom of the receiver. The mag box just pushes the rounds up and into the receiver's integral feed lips.

Those integral feed rails are fixed and very close to the bolt path of the receiver.
They are a totally different geometry than the AW mag feed lips and retain the rounds in a totally different manner.
They occupy a different point in space relative to the bolt path compared to the AW mag feed lips.

Win 70, Mausers, etc.. all used the same concept of integral feed lips on the receiver and a separate floating mag box below it.

The AW mag feed lips are also formed to allow the larger bolt body (larger than R700) of the Acc Intl to cycle between the edges of the lips.

The AW mag and its feed lips were never meant to run with a 2 lug bolt.
They (Acc Intl) were only interested in the bottom lug of their own front 3 lugs stripping rounds out of the magazine (which it does very well). That 6 o'clock lug digs deep into the mag plus the bolt nose face is nice and flat from the edge of the lug to the drop into the breech face.

In R700 style actions, the host DBM that positions an AW magazine has to be perfectly setup in the Z-axis to place the AW's feed lips as close to the bolt path as possible. Even then, it has zero room for error and doesn't tolerate rounds getting out of position.

So..... you are trying to make a double stack mag designed for a different action work in actions it was never meant to be around.

I ship a lot of SENTINEL spec guns with AW mags and they run "pretty good".
I would never ship a 2-lug work gun to an agency with AW mags.

I am not an expert on the Acc Intl products but those are just a few things I know from dealing with the AW vs. AICS mags. SMEs like Tooley, etc will prolly have lots better info and could relay it better than me.


./

 

[morganlamprecht]

terry laid it out well

if someone isnt well versed in all the geometry and mechanics of rifle feeding, i never recommend them to get AWs in a 2 lug...both of my current comp rifles took 3-4 hrs worth of cutting/fitting/adjusting to get them where i would run them in matches with AWs...but i always keep an AICS in my pack on standby

they are on the ragged edge and any wear in the wrong spots can cause issues in a hurry especially in the mag notch/mag latch area

 

[A.Huggy]

I agree with the others in this thread that the AW market is smaller, but I think it's growing. All of the popular custom actions are compatible with AW mags now either by default or by the customer's request. I know it's anecdotal, but I've been using AW mags at PRS matches for about a year now and there's always at least one other person in my squad using them.

FWIW, my TL3 feeds .308 from AW mags flawlessly. Even when I squish that 11th round in there

 

[308pirate]

I believe you are incorrect.
Only a handful of R700 style receivers were designed to feed from a DS/DF mag. Those were the terrible 700DMs.
They were a half assed afterthought in design and sucked big time. F'ing terrible.

R700 style receivers are designed to feed from a double stack internal box but the actual feed lips are integrally machined into the bottom of the receiver. The mag box just pushes the rounds up and into the receiver's integral feed lips.

Those integral feed rails are fixed and very close to the bolt path of the receiver.
They are a totally different geometry than the AW mag feed lips and retain the rounds in a totally different manner.
They occupy a different point in space relative to the bolt path compared to the AW mag feed lips.

Win 70, Mausers, etc.. all used the same concept of integral feed lips on the receiver and a separate floating mag box below it.

The AW mag feed lips are also formed to allow the larger bolt body (larger than R700) of the Acc Intl to cycle between the edges of the lips.

The AW mag and its feed lips were never meant to run with a 2 lug bolt.
They (Acc Intl) were only interested in the bottom lug of their own front 3 lugs stripping rounds out of the magazine (which it does very well). That 6 o'clock lug digs deep into the mag plus the bolt nose face is nice and flat from the edge of the lug to the drop into the breech face.

In R700 style actions, the host DBM that positions an AW magazine has to be perfectly setup in the Z-axis to place the AW's feed lips as close to the bolt path as possible. Even then, it has zero room for error and doesn't tolerate rounds getting out of position.

So..... you are trying to make a double stack mag designed for a different action work in actions it was never meant to be around.

I ship a lot of SENTINEL spec guns with AW mags and they run "pretty good".
I would never ship a 2-lug work gun to an agency with AW mags.

I am not an expert on the Acc Intl products but those are just a few things I know from dealing with the AW vs. AICS mags. SMEs like Tooley, etc will prolly have lots better info and could relay it better than me.


./

Thank you for the explanation. I didn't realize there was so much slop in the Z axis and was completely unaware of the difference in bolt head reach down into the magazine between an AIAW and your typical 700 clone or other 2 lug designs.

So then the question becomes, why not design a ground up DSDF detachable magazine that will hitch up into an AICS chassis latch and present the top round where the internal feed lips present it on a Model 700? I assume the feed lips at the bottom of the receiver would have to be machined away to make room for such a magazine?

I wonder if that's where the DSSF AICS magazine design came from? From the need to get around the integral feed lips on the M700 and the need to elevate the top cartridge up into the bolt's path.

 

[Terry Cross]

I assume the feed lips at the bottom of the receiver would have to be machined away to make room for such a magazine?

That is exactly what Remington did with the 700DM rifles. They removed the integral feed rails. Lots of smiths machined away the rails on standard 700s so they could install the Remington DM magazines and bottom metal. I am not sure which sucked worse, their magazines or the matching bottom metal.

I wonder if that's where the DSSF AICS magazine design came from? From the need to get around the integral feed lips on the M700 and the need to elevate the top cartridge up into the bolt's path.

That is exactly what Accuracy International did so they could support the whole AICS project.

 

[b6graham]

there's a reason i ordered an AICS cut TL3 from zermatt.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I love my aw mags it sure do wish they made a 12 round one for those high count stages. Them being shorter helps in certain positions for sure

We made 14ish round mags out of AWs and the universal 419 extension.

 

[Andrew07]

We made 14ish round mags out of AWs and the universal 419 extension.

How? Pics? I definitely need more info!

 

[b6graham]

How? Pics? I definitely need more info!

Break the weld. Stretch the spring

 

[BLKWLFK9]

We didn't break the weld.

Take your spring out, put the bottom of the spring on bottom of the floor plate. Center it up, use a pencil and trace the follower spring onto the floor plate. Use the cutting wheel of a dremel and cut the square hole out that you traced. The universal 419 extension will slide over the lips of the bottom metal. Make sure when u install the follower spring that it goes through the hole in the floor plate and into the extension.

Bobs your uncle

 

[Andrew07]

We didn't break the weld.

Take your spring out, put the bottom of the spring on bottom of the floor plate. Center it up, use a pencil and trace the follower spring onto the floor plate. Use the cutting wheel of a dremel and cut the square hole out that you traced. The universal 419 extension will slide over the lips of the bottom metal. Make sure when u install the follower spring that it goes through the hole in the floor plate and into the extension.

Bobs your uncle

Sounds easy enough I’m gonna give it whirl and see what happens. Anybody got a spare area 419 extension laying around?

 

[chevy_man]

I find it odd in the extreme that it's so "difficult" to make a bolt action rifle feed easily from a double stack-double feed detachable magazine when virtually all of them were designed to feed from a double stack-double feed internal magazine.

Can someone shed some light on that?

Double stack single feed, with a specific follower usually.

They would work fine in a 3 lug action where the bottom lug has plenty of depth to strip rounds. 2 lug actions can be quite picky on round presentation.

If someone were to make a AICS/AW hybrid with a single feed double stack you could keep the reliability and shorten the mag. But when the only real benefit is shortening the mag it's kinda silly to toss r&d at it.

 

[jzerfoss]

Double stack single feed, with a specific follower usually.

They would work fine in a 3 lug action where the bottom lug has plenty of depth to strip rounds. 2 lug actions can be quite picky on round presentation.

If someone were to make a AICS/AW hybrid with a single feed double stack you could keep the reliability and shorten the mag. But when the only real benefit is shortening the mag it's kinda silly to toss r&d at it.

That's specifically an Alpha type 2 mag.

 

[mojavejim]

Didn't American Rifle Company start making a double stack single feed magazine a few years ago?
Or just get an AI for AW mags, that seems to be the most reliable solution I've found.

 

[Glassaholic]

That's specifically an Alpha type 2 mag.

That's right, and I took one of the 300 WSM mags he makes and used my MPA lip tool to bend the mag lips to hold 308 size cases in and am able to get 14 6.5 Creedmoor rounds in there and it feeds just as reliable as the smaller mags.

 

[308pirate]

If someone were to make a AICS/AW hybrid with a single feed double stack you could keep the reliability and shorten the mag.

There's already a bunch of double stack single feed AICS magazines out there.

What's needed is a double stack, double feed magazine that will clear the integral feed lips of the Model 700, or simply ignore the 700 and focus on the custom actions which likely none have integral feed lips anyway.