why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

#51
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

7.62x51 is current mil round since the 70's( late 60-early mid 70's depending on what data used), When the 06 was phased out of service. The gun industry has built systems and developed data as well as add ons for the service round( they always have). The technology is alot neater than it was when target sights were the biggest add on!!

I Agree with VKC..... 308 is popular , faddy, trendy, but when it comes to down range performance and versatility in reloading the old 06 isn't touched!!!

My .02 worth the .308 is a fine round my wife hunts with one!!!
 
#52
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

My '06 is pushing 3000fps right now with 165 gr hornady sst's. Pushing 2900 with 180's. I may try some 190+ grainers soon and see how they do. But my current setup shoots well under moa right now. Both the 308 and '06 will be as accurate as you can make them. They have both done plenty of work. I would encourage anyone that wanted to shoot an '06 to go for it.
 
#55
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

I'm an unabashed fan of the .30-'06. That said, I still don't have any LR bolt guns built in that chambering. Two hunting rifles and my Garand, yes, but LR Target rifles, no.

The reason is recoil-related fatigue. 40 rounds for score and an unspecified number of sighters using a minimum weight LR-capable projectile from the F Open prone is just too rigorous a session for the likes of me.

I can achieve relatively identical or slightly superior ballistic performance from the .260, and that's what I do.

It's not a question of wimp factors, it's simply an honest recognition of the effects of repeated recoil over a sustained course of fire. It all wears you down regardless of its magnitude, and less is unquestionably better.

Greg
 
#56
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kytrapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7.62x51 is current mil round since the 70's( late 60-early mid 70's depending on what data used), When the 06 was phased out of service. The gun industry has built systems and developed data as well as add ons for the service round( they always have). The technology is alot neater than it was when target sights were the biggest add on!!

I Agree with VKC..... 308 is popular , faddy, trendy, but when it comes to down range performance and versatility in reloading the old 06 isn't touched!!!

My .02 worth the .308 is a fine round my wife hunts with one!!! </div></div>

I think the only reason 308 exists is because the governments bean counters pushed it for economic reasons. Better barrel life,less powder,lighter bullets and the supplier's were already tooled up for making 30 cal barrels etc.

30-06,"an ancient cartridge BTW" embarrassingly out performs it ballisticly. Face it,308 was a step down.

America should have instead retooled for a good ole 1/4 bore in a 6.5x47L sized case with 130 grainers. The perceived need to adopt a varmint cartridge "5.56" would never have existed.
 
#57
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

Advantages of the .308 are shorter stiffer action, smaller more efficient case, longer barrel life, less recoil for same velocity and less powder for same velocity.

The single advantage of the .30-06 is greater range due to higher velocity. This allows for marginally improved ultimate range and ft.lbs. of energy. With the right twist, the 06. can also use a heavier bullet.

Practically, there is almost no difference. Both are very versatile cartridges.
 
#58
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

I'm a big fan of both chamberings. I handload for both, and favor the 208gr AMax as a projectile to get good LR performance from both.

I always got about 150-200 fps more MV with the 30-06, until RL17 powder came along.

With RL17. in my 26" 308 I can get 2700 fps with a moly'd 208, in Win brass, loaded to 3.00" OAL. Same moly'd 208 in a 26" 30-06 will get 2800 fps via RL22 or smilar speed powder. I look for newer powders to improve the '06 capabilities a bit too.

Downside to the 308 (for me) is loading the heavy bullets long makes my rig a single-shot. However, shorter profile bullets like the 220gr SMK (moly'd) loaded to 2.81" OAL can make 2600 fps in a 26" bbl, via RL17. That's not bad.

At the end of the day the 30-06 is always going to be capable of higher MV, less drop, less drift, more supersonic range, and more energy downrange than the 308.

The Rem long 700 with it's 3.6" magazine is also very OAL friendly for loading the long bullets.

I'd say the two are far more similar than different. Both gain a lot from handloading the heavy high BC projectiles for optimum LR performance.
 
#61
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

I was thinking about the fact that the .308 showed better accuracy in the garands so chambered as compared to those chambered in '06.

The Garand was originally designed around an intermediate cartridge, a 7x51 (.276 pedersen). Thanks to Dougy McArthur, he insisted on the '06. The rifle was modified and history was made.

Long story short, the '06 is most likely operating at the upper fringes of the capability of the garand system, while the .308 is comfortably within the original design parameters,resulting in better accuracy.
 
#62
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

I'd say .308 has edge in precision compared to .30-06, it just has better inert precision as a caliber, which can be one of many things such as less recoil, more even muzzle velocity, more research and product development being performed for the rifles (Short-action) and so on.

I've had 2 .30-06's and now I have 2 .308's for shooting and hunting, cant say I miss the .30-06, since the .308 can do everything a .30-06 can in my opinion.

Some benchrest-guys stated that the .308 is one of the best calibers when it comes to inert precision out to 800 meters, and I can't say I don't agree.
 
#63
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

In a precision boltgun, shooting precision handloads, I'm not sure there is a distinguishable difference in accuracy potential between the 308 and the 30-06.

Here are a few examples of the accuracy my 30-06 delivers with bullets from 110gr to 240gr,

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/30-06%20Targets/

I don't go through any BR type loading techniques. Just neck size the brass, load 'em up with good bullets, and shoot.
 
#64
Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

I can't believe this is still going on. There are so many factors that are wrong with the "comparisons" it's not even funny.

Both shot in an M1 Garand that is known for having a very low pressure threshold.

Both shot using the same powder (IMR-4895), which leaves the 30-06 1/4 empty (not good for accuracy BTW).

The M1 Garand was/is much more difficult to accurize than the M1A.

The reality is until say the last 30 years or so there were very few powders that could effectively utilize the case capacity of the 30-06.

Then of course there are all the old(er) platforms that could not handle the pressures of a proper load so add lawyers and ammo gets dumbed down to the lowest common denominator (M1 Garand, Rem 760 etc.)

The 30-06 which was originally designed to use a nitroglycerine based powder to push a 220gr boolet (W-A Powder, named after Whistler and Aspenwald) which took up more case space. They later used the same powder to push a 150gr spitzer and later used IMR 4895 (IMR from DuPont stands for Improved Military Rifle BTW).

The 308 was adopted simply to push a 147-150gr bullet at the same speed as the 30-06. So the 308 used less powder (filled the case better), weighed less, troops could carry more etc. Good choice, especially when the determination of "combat range" was reduced down to inside 300 yards (that's how the .223 got it's nose under the tent flap)

As far as inherent accuracy "maybe" an edge to the 308 due to the sharper shoulder angle and shorter powder column, but the diff is not enough to classify it as an Akley or a WSM type shoulder.

I'm not sure what the "inert precision of the caliber" is in comparison to the 30-06 since it's the same boolet.

Properly loaded the 30-06 will out do anything the 308 can do (also properly loaded) and in most cases, can out do it with a heavier payload.

Cheers,

Doc
 
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