Why does the Military use 700 actions?

[ScottG1911]

I'm sure there is some kind of reason behind the decision, whether it be cost, or something else. But I can't seem to understand why the M24 and M40 are made on 700 actions. I was always led to believe that the mauser 98 action was the strongest, most reliable action ever built. Mausers will fire, extract, and eject in a whole host of hostile conditions; where I've seen 700's fail to eject on sunny days. What would most concern me is ice building up on the gun. I have heard (havent seen) of 700 plungers freezing up, where on a mauser that isn't possible.

Don't get me wrong though, I love 700's. I've had many of them and will continue to own them.

 

[Double-edged]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

You're looking for a logical answer to what part of our government does...?

 

[USMCj]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Because we dont fight in ice very often?

 

[ScottG1911]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Harold, very good point lol

 

[Eagle1899]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Cheap and plentiful.

 

[Pinmaster]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Because there is not an 800 action yet???

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

....why do the government still got bayonets and bayonet lugs....?

 

[Walsh]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....why do the government still got bayonets and bayonet lugs....?</div></div>

Better then your bare bones and skin.

 

[BAMCIS]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Think of a 700 as a Chevy. A lot of aftermarket parts,and even more mechanics. Try to find a good Winchester mechanic.

 

[WDN-K-9]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BAMCIS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think of a 700 as a Chevy. A lot of aftermarket parts,and even more mechanics. Try to find a good Winchester mechanic.

</div></div>

So true....so very true!

 

[Hummer]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

It is actually very simple, Remington was lowest bidder that met the specs. A good friend of mine was the "father" of the M24. I believe he said that Steyr bid as well. Don't remember if anyone else bid or not. I don't think Winchester bid on M24 and on the M40 they did not bid, only Remington did.
The long action was required in order to have the capability of rebarreling to bigger/longer cases such as the 338 Lapua. Boy McCoy was working on the 338 at Aberdeen when I was there and I was slated to do the accuracy firing on it but I left before he was ready for me. Then he died shortly after getting it finished.
We had a 2500 yard range we were going to stretch it out on.
The procurement regs say you cannot write someone out of a specification without very good reasons. For instance many law enforcement agencies screwed Ruger because they said the action had to have a leaf mainspring. There is no rationale for a callout for spring construction as long as it meets the advertised energy requirements.

In regards to the 98 Mausers, they were good actions however they exhibited catastropic failures in the Eastern Front units particularly Army Group North when they were operating there. Source of this is the book Fighting In Hell which is a compilation of briefing pamphlets German Field Officers wrote for US forces while waiting to be released to go home after the war. Our military was on the ball and they asked the German officers to write up their experiences fighting Russians. It is a EXCELLENT work I can recommend. In paperback it is a solid red jacket.
Another problem the 98s exhibit is the thin cross sections which allow action flex after firing. In highpower competition I guess I have seen maybe two 98 actions in last 35 years on the line.
There was one outstanding design called the FN Mauser Supreme, a three screw solid bottom action designed especially for long range applications. They are quite rare and I have one built in 300 H&H that was L.F. Moore's personal long range rifle. It has a custom prone stock and Obermeyer barrel. I have not shot it and have had it maybe eight years, guess I ought to sell it.

 

[JoeSmith]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Hummer: as usual, fascinating historical info. BTW; can we see some pics of the Supreme? For that matter, maybe a thread on your entire arsenal?! I bet there are more interesting models.

 

[lmhans4440]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

I have heard so many reasons why the M24's are long actions. A few examples are; originally ordered them in .30-06, so they could rebarrel to .300 win. mag, and thats all Remington had availible at the time to fufill orders. I am curious to what the real reason was/is.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

This is probably the right place to get this confirmed. A gunner and machinist buddy of mine told me that the 700 action is easier to true up because it is "round" and doesn't take a jig to square it up. Now, I know donuts are round and the Irish jig, bit that is it. This advantage lead to more people experimenting with the actions, which lead to more aftermarket parts, and so on.

Specifically to the contracts, I don't know.

 

[264win]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

i have to agree 1911 brings up a point i often think about . i think a m700 is similar to a ruger 1022 . really not that great until you replace most of it . but they cost less to make ,and now its hard to find a mechanic for my winchesters

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

OP - Good question.

I've got a rifle with a trued 700SA in an McM HTG.

I've put less than 50 rounds through it and had one failure to close the bolt (OK, possibly a round issue as it was "cheap as chips" Privi ammo - OAL or neck/chamber tolerance mismatch as the chamber is pretty tight?) but also a number of feed problems with the bolt failing to pick up rounds from the internal magazine....turns out it was a over-compressed mag spring. Not a major problem but makes me wonder how it would stand up to serious abuse, and I certainly wouldn't be out in the Sandpit with something that seems (at first acquaintance) so susceptible to temperament!

Compared to my AW....I remain to be impressed by the 700SA!

My '41 byf Mauser 98k on the other hand loads anything I care to put through it in pretty much any UK conditions and never complains.

Though accuracy is not as good as the 700SA based rifle obviously!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....why do the government still got bayonets and bayonet lugs....?</div></div>

You mean you don't train your guys to get up close and personal with the cold steel any more??

 

[laanguiano]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Simply explained:
Remington was able to handle the volume of demand, at a reasonable price, within Military Spec required.

 

[The_Punisher]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Same reason they shoot the beretta 92 and the M16 is 5.56 ! Something political........

 

[Apache]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....why do the government still got bayonets and bayonet lugs....? </div></div>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...-six-weeks.html

read.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Thanks for posting that UK link, apache

UK forces fix bayonets more often than you might think in these days of the digital battlefield.

The sight of a group of guys bearing down on you, blood up and screaming, intent on doing you serious damage with a length of cold steel will test the resolve of even the most hardened to stand and fight.

 

[ScottG1911]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Good posts guys, I appreciaty it.

 

[Hummer]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Interesting replies, I talked to my buddy this morning and he said they had 77 vendors reply that indicated they were interested and got two actual responses, Remington and Steyr.
When the rest saw the requirements for accuracy/endurance etc they dropped out. The Steyr did not complete testing.

THe SA 700 is a pure bitch to get to feed reliably in about 75% of the ones I have seen. I have seen very few guys shoot the 40X across the course.

The plan all along was 308 and back up on magnum at some point in the future.

The M40s the Marines now use has a completely different trigger guard/mag set up.

Here is the Supreme. Only one I have ever seen. Bet it would be a real bear for 338 Lapua conversion. It has a Obermeyer barrel. I have never shot it.

 

[Turk]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OP - Good question.

I've got a rifle with a trued 700SA in an McM HTG.

I've put less than 50 rounds through it and had one failure to close the bolt (OK, possibly a round issue as it was "cheap as chips" Privi ammo - OAL or neck/chamber tolerance mismatch as the chamber is pretty tight?) but also a number of feed problems with the bolt failing to pick up rounds from the internal magazine....turns out it was a over-compressed mag spring. Not a major problem but makes me wonder how it would stand up to serious abuse, and I certainly wouldn't be out in the Sandpit with something that seems (at first acquaintance) so susceptible to temperament!

Compared to my AW....I remain to be impressed by the 700SA!

My '41 byf Mauser 98k on the other hand loads anything I care to put through it in pretty much any UK conditions and never complains.

Though accuracy is not as good as the 700SA based rifle obviously!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....why do the government still got bayonets and bayonet lugs....?</div></div>

You mean you don't train your guys to get up close and personal with the cold steel any more??

</div></div>
Perhaps you should get a new smith instead of a moron that puts tight chambers on military rifles and overcompresses springs!!! Let him do that to your beloved AI; and lets see how it fares??

 

[stefan73]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

I have to agree that the Remington 700 met the Army's requirements. It performs pretty damn well in fact! Only complaint I have ever had was that the systems were not taken care of by some units!
The long action requirement from my understanding was for the ability to rebarrel and fire 300 WM. ODA uses .300 WM on their rigs and has .308 also. This allows for some interoperability of systems/parts.
Honestly I have never had a problem with my limited experience(I haven't been playing in the shooting world as much as I used to so I have forgotten some stuff and I obviously do not have the experience that there is here!).
I was a SEO for about a year with a 6 man sniper squad not including myself or the NCOIC. I was also fanatical about maintenance/care of the systems so that probably contributed to not having any issues. I did have to take some less then desirable steps to get my guys trigger time on their rigs but that is another story.

 

[Hummer]

Re: Why does the Military use 700 actions?

Weapons care has always been a problem and it takes a good NCO to enforce their care especially in the sand box as dust is about the worst thing to deal with followed by warm beer. Folks that have not been there have no concept on how bad the dust is and what it will do to a weapon system.
I have seen weapons with chambered rounds and taped muzzles have their bolts opened, round extracted and dust fall out of the chamber that built up in the barrel forward of chamber! ! ! !
Stuff is just like flour.

The mag spring issue happens on my 40X that was built in Remington Custom shop. I found out right quick that rounds would fail to strip and nose dive.
The chamber was so large that I had to cut barrel threads off twice to get it down to where it was not giving a big swell. I got that straightened out and I knew something was wrong as I couldn't call a shot with it standing. The muzzle took a weird loop during recoil.
Closer examination revealed the internal area of the bore wandered and took a deviation last foot of barrel. I pulled it and put a Hart on it with a tight chamber and that part got better and it shot fine and I made it a slow fire long range rifle for Perry.
The 700s I have seen that are "right" I can count on fingers of one hand.
I have a .339 neck reamer I like to use and it takes Fed Match all day. On LC Match out 2 out of 100 do not want to go in and it is not that the neck is too small but there are very slight ridges at the case mouth you can't see but can feel with finger nail.
It is very similar to the outer ridge left after case trimming which requires the neck chamfer tool to remove internally and externally. Obviously I could not do this on loaded round and it was also very slight.
To cure this I made up a dummy chamber in a cut off section of barrel that allows about 1/4" of case BELOW THE SHOULDER to enter and I used it as a loaded case gage to cull out the ridges. A touch with emery cloth makes the 2 out of 200 go in just like the others for a nice fit.
I suspect this is what Basraboy ran into.