Why don't snipers use "tuned" ammo?

[mugsie]

First of all - Mods - if this is in the wrong area, please relocate it where you think it should be. Thanks....

I just finished reading American Sniper, Chris Kyles book on his tour in the sand countries. He uses a variety of weapons, MK11, MK112, 300 Win Mag and a 338 Lapua. He says they get their ammo from Black Hills. It seems to me that most military snipers are plunking in ammo and their gun is good to go. When I do long range shooting, I'm tuning the loads, weighing brass, measuring seating depth, all the anal things needed to place my shots in the "X" ring. I am beginning to wonder why?

Is it because they are shooting to be minute of muslim and I'm shooting to be the smallest group possible at 600 to 1000 yards? Is it that simple? Or am I missing something. Is all the anal BS just a load of crap and doesn't matter enough? I worry about barrel harmonics, they don't seem to care. By getting a batch of ammo, maybe slightly different from one batch / rifle to the other, harmonics should play havoc with everything - why doesn't it?

So guys - am I going overboard and buying into the hype that all the brass needs to be the same length, neck tension, seating depth and a multitude of other things that drive me nuts when loading for long range, or should I just FL size, pour some powder into the case, schumsh a bullet in and fire away. It's good enough for center of mass, then it's good enough?

What say ye on the subject?
Thanks....

 

[poison123]

Just a outside observation, but I can only guess the butt fuck that logistics would be trying to have tuned ammo for every "sniper" rifle in the mil.

 

[Lowlight]

They get it from a variety of places, not just Black Hills and I will say that the last time I chonographed a bunch of SEALs 300WM ammo, the SDs were single digit. High variations were around 7fps per box, the average was between 2 & 4fps

Not to mention they are not target shooting, but hitting minute of man, which is close to 4 MOA or more in the field.

There rifles are not the "end all be all" by any means especially when you compare them to a custom rifle.

They used, abused, passed around, everything you would not do with your own personal rifle.

They are "tuned" pretty darn well for what they are and how they are being used.

By the way, the FC and the plastic holders, means these came from Federal not black hills

 

[Petrov]

wow, better than my handloads.
I am going to take stab at this, snipers have about a gazzillion onther skills to learn.
That time could be better spent on the range learning to call wind and reading mirage which can put your roind a couple of feet off instead of fiddlw fucking with the ammo for a fraction of gnats ass.
I know its goverment work and all the jokes about it but these folks really are very busy. They are probably running around with 200k worth of equipmentnthat they must know like the back ofntheir hand and about a bazillion other things. Handloading is not on the back burner it is probably off the stove and out of the kitchen.
Guys like me can sit around in undrwear in the basment messing with ammo, snipers are probably busy learning andnperfectingnmultiple sets of skills that they need to survive.
posted from phone sorry for spelling.

 

[bigedp51]

Military rifles are tuned to the issued ammunition or designed around issued ammo. Meaning the ammunition and rifles will shoot a given size group or they are turned over to the armourers.

The British No.4 Enfield rifles I collected were required to have 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip. This up pressure variance was how the armourers tuned each rifle by controlling barrel vibrations. Mauser military rifles had steps cut in their barrels at the vibration points to control barrel vibrations.

The shape, weight and length of the barrel also controls barrel vibrations and the barrel can be designed around the ammunition used.

Bottom line there are two ways to tune a rifle for the best accuracy, meaning tune the ammo or tune the rifle. In the past factory Remington 700s had 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip and did not have free floating barrels.

Understanding Barrel Bedding - RifleShooter


.22-250 being tuned
Remington 700 Varmint Rifle Barrel Tuner Demo - YouTube
.308 being tuned
SmartStock Rifle Barrel Tuner Demo - YouTube

SmartStock - Rifle Stock Accuracy Platform

 

[mdmp5]

Way too much utility to tune every rifle. Better to just use quality ammo that works well in most rifles. Something that chambers well with plenty of headspace. And like Frank said, there is no need for ¼ MOA groups to hit a guy.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

I'll bet the ammo manufacturers do a lot of testing and tuning on the ammo they load.

Also, seems to me that a good barrel, chambered concentrically and crowned square will shoot damn near anything pretty decent.

 

[kraigWY]

Speaking as an ex- company commander of two different companies, and as an ex- BN S-3

logistics would suck to the point of making it impractical. You're talking a tailor load for every gun you have, not just a batch of reloads.

Especially if you add the fact that Issue ammo is, as Frank pointed out, exceeds the accuracy requirements of the sniper/infantry man.

Here is an example of the 30-06 ammo used in the M1903-M1903A4 fired at 200 yards: The newer stuff is more accurate yet.

 

[bigedp51]

In the 1969 movie "Easy Rider" Dennis Hopper said it best, "I'm getting bad vibes man, I'm getting bad vibes."

Tuning your ammo or your rifle is about controlling barrel vibrations and having the bullet leave the barrel at the same point of barrel vibration/movement.

I'm retired and in my mid 60s and I have chronologically gifted eyesight and our group has selected me to give covering suppressive fire in Zombie attacks. Therefore controlling barrel vibrations and chronologically gifted eyesight with cataracts have nothing to do with accurate shooting.

Golden years and Zombie humor.

 

[2ndamendfan]

wow, better than my handloads.
I am going to take stab at this, snipers have about a gazzillion onther skills to learn.
That time could be better spent on the range learning to call wind and reading mirage which can put your roind a couple of feet off instead of fiddlw fucking with the ammo for a fraction of gnats ass.
I know its goverment work and all the jokes about it but these folks really are very busy. They are probably running around with 200k worth of equipmentnthat they must know like the back ofntheir hand and about a bazillion other things. Handloading is not on the back burner it is probably off the stove and out of the kitchen.
Guys like me can sit around in undrwear in the basment messing with ammo, snipers are probably busy learning andnperfectingnmultiple sets of skills that they need to survive.
posted from phone sorry for spelling.

I would have to agree with this. The skills of a sniper are far beyond shooting. I really don't like the term "sniper" for the most part because it is overused and misunderstood. Not to say they are not very skilled marksman but fieldcraft is a huge deal so is observation/recon of the enemy. It isn't all shooting.

 

[M40_A1]

Not to say they are not very skilled marksman but fieldcraft is a huge deal so is observation/recon of the enemy. It isn't all shooting.

You can go ahead and use the term "sniper" with confidence. Sniping has everything to do with shooting, and simply means to shoot at exposed individuals of an enemy's forces, especially when not in action, usually from a concealed point of vantage. The reconnaissance and observation roles fall under the title "scout", hence the full term "scout-sniper". Sniping is the primary mission of the scout-sniper team.

 

[Dogtown]

Well, that's the Marine point of view

 

[M40_A1]

The definition of "sniper" is actually Webster's point of view

 

[Sako man]

They get it from a variety of places, not just Black Hills and I will say that the last time I chonographed a bunch of SEALs 300WM ammo, the SDs were single digit. High variations were around 7fps per box, the average was between 2 & 4fps

Im really lucky if I'm getting 7-9f SDs. Out of my "tuned" loads. if average SD is 2-4 thats some good shit.

 

[USMC SgtMaj]

Way too much utility to tune every rifle. Better to just use quality ammo that works well in most rifles. Something that chambers well with plenty of headspace. And like Frank said, there is no need for ¼ MOA groups to hit a guy.

Bingo!!!! WGAF about MOA when we have a million other things to worry about while in theater, as long as we get the same grain projo and the bolt closes we're good. Our best shooters are rarely snipers, look up the division match & Marine Corps match score sheets, those are the guys that get crazy with the details.

 

[40xs]

The difference is; you want to hit the button on his coat, but in actual human conflict between the two breast pockets will suffice.

 

[Lowlight]

If you broke it down, the shooting part is probably only 10% of the story.

There is a lot more involved besides, and beyond taking a shot.

 

[mdmp5]

I mentioned about utility. Take a guy in the field who needs more ammo for whatever reason. Imagine having the base gathering specific ammo for this one particular guy and then having to transport it to him somehow in the field. Sound reasonable to you?

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

If you broke it down, the shooting part is probably only 10% of the story.

There is a lot more involved besides, and beyond taking a shot.

What is the latest washout rate because of field-craft or mental failure vs shooting?
I'd love the look on XXX's face when he was told "I can't step off to day, "MY ammo has not arrived yet"!

 

[Lowlight]

Far more people washout due to failing fieldcraft... when you consider that the "shooting qual" is at the end of the course, by that point, most are doing pretty well in terms of marksmanship. It's everything else you have to pass.

Land Nav, Observations, Stalks, etc. fail more people. If you fail any subject / exercise twice you are out, that is not tested on the shooting side until the very end.

 

[Dogtown]

Probably the only school that doesn't have a fieldcraft portion would be the Coast Guard's HITRON school. But that could also be summed up as an Aerial Platform course. Everywhere else, shooting is only a small part of the instruction because the mission of the modern sniper has more to do with with communicating what's seen without being seen than accurately engaging targets, as many of us learned to our dismay

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Everywhere else, shooting is only a small part of the instruction because the mission of the modern sniper has more to do with with communicating what's seen without being seen than accurately engaging targets, as many of us learned to our dismay

Same long ago.
Years ago, guys were picked because of fieldcraft ability first, then shooting was taught to them, some even had/got OJT. If your advanced infantry skills were not up to snuff you were not even asked.

 

[jordan0317]

Far more people washout due to failing fieldcraft... when you consider that the "shooting qual" is at the end of the course, by that point, most are doing pretty well in terms of marksmanship. It's everything else you have to pass.

Land Nav, Observations, Stalks, etc. fail more people. If you fail any subject / exercise twice you are out, that is not tested on the shooting side until the very end.

Kd qual is actually done before any stalking, but yes stalking remains as the biggest killer of graduates. Ukd and stalking run simultaneously (in regards to marine ssbc at least)

 

[sakobob]

They get it from a variety of places, not just Black Hills and I will say that the last time I chonographed a bunch of SEALs 300WM ammo, the SDs were single digit. High variations were around 7fps per box, the average was between 2 & 4fps

Not to mention they are not target shooting, but hitting minute of man, which is close to 4 MOA or more in the field.

There rifles are not the "end all be all" by any means especially when you compare them to a custom rifle.

They used, abused, passed around, everything you would not do with your own personal rifle.

They are "tuned" pretty darn well for what they are and how they are being used.

By the way, the FC and the plastic holders, means these came from Federal not black hills

are those 220's going 2970? damn! how? and in federal brass to boot, i'm surprised the primer is
still in.

 

[DuneBoer]

are those 220's going 2970? damn! how? and in federal brass to boot, i'm surprised the primer is
still in.

220 @ 2970??? Wow!

 

[Lowlight]

Our KD qual was at the end, I am sure stuff changed, but we did the stalk, UKD before we did the KD qual.

 

[Holeshot]

are those 220's going 2970? damn! how? and in federal brass to boot, i'm surprised the primer is
still in.

+1 wow! Is the brass reloadable after that?

 

[dang472]

Where does the "Pretty Dang Good Ammo" and Operator as Fuck qualifications fit in? Obviously after the stalking, but is there a separate NV-Helo-Underwater-Coriolis qual that I'm missing?

 

[MJY65]

That time could be better spent on the range learning to call wind and reading mirage which can put your roind a couple of feet off instead of fiddlw fucking with the ammo for a fraction of gnats ass.

That explanation seems as good as any. I think that, too frequently, we tend to focus on details that are more relevant to bench rest shooting. When I read about guys obsessing because their Chargemaster varies by .1 grains on a 50 grain charge, I wonder if they can also estimate range, wind, target speed, etc. to .2%.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

If I was a sniper on a mission, and anal, (which I am) I might carry my "tuned" ammo; in fact, there is a strong possibility that I would.

There is also a virtual certainty that I would have my settings for issue ammunition Sharpied on the stock somewhere, just incase I found myself in a target rich environment, and had run out of the primo stuff. Don't tell me this is a revolutionary idea? BB

 

[Graham]

Oh boy....

 

[leadbullet]

They do run tuned ammo, or more like tuned rifles to the ammo.