Hunting & Fishing Why Guns and Ammo HATES the .308

[schmitty]

Does the .308 Fit the Long-Range Hunting Bill? - Guns & Ammo

This article was sent to me in an email, and it really chaps my ass. I wanted to see what the consensus was here on the hide. I understand that the round has limitations, but i would much rater see a competent hunter taking a shot at any distance with a .308 vs a moron taking a shot at any living creature at any distance with a .300. And just wait till you see the part about shooting a terrorist.

And yes i am a .308 fan dammit. I know it aint the best but "hate" is such a strong word hahah
Edit to add: In the email subject line it said "Why we hate the .308"

Please forgive me if im not supposed to post a link reference but I wanted to share. I will delete if needed.

 

[winmagshooter]

While the cartridge does have its limitations, 250 yds is nowhere near them. And the terrorist bit just makes me want to punch the writer in the face. A wounded terrorist can still shoot back, a dead terrorist cannot... Idiot.

 

[Okie Gordon]

I enjoy shooting rifles chambered in the .308 Winchester round.

That said, I agree 100% with the premise of the article that it is a poor choice for long range (beyond 400 yards) shots on game animals.

I will even go a step further and say that 99% of hunters have no business even taking shots at game animals past 200-300 yards, no matter what caliber they are shooting.
Magazines who publish articles about shooting game animals past 300 yards are encouraging irresponsible behavior and are partially responsible for crippled and gut shot game animals.

 

[bohem]

I will even go a step further and say that 99% of hunters have no business even taking shots at game animals past 200-300 yards, no matter what caliber they are shooting.
Magazines who publish articles about shooting game animals past 300 yards are encouraging irresponsible behavior and are partially responsible for crippled and gut shot game animals.

This is spot on.

I listened to a PGC officer last year pontificate about this very topic and give me a hard time when I took a doe at a bit over 400 with my match rifle. "That's a really long shot, how irresponsible...(insert 25 more MINUTES of spew)"

I told him that I completely agreed with him that limitations and working within those limitations is the hallmark of a good hunter.

And then I ripped him for presuming to give me a lecture when he doesn't know jack about my self-imposed limitations. Maybe he'll think about it, but I doubt it.

 

[pawprint2]

I wonder if any game was harvested in the US, with firearms, prior to the development of the 300 Win Mag? I've read numerous stories regarding the buffalo (bison) hunts in the old west, I guess most of those stories were wrong. Thanks guns and ammo for setting me and everyone else straight on the subject.

 

[schmitty]

I agree that most hunters should not take shots on game at past 400 yards. Im willing to admit that i have attempted shots i had no business taking when i was younger. I learned from that though. The article angered me most i think because in the hands of someone who knows their stuff, its capable at range. Perhaps not ideal and definitely not the best, but capable. Then again maybe im the moron and the .308 is not worth shit all.

 

[2ndPanzer]

Hold on..... .640 BC 190 Accubond???

 

[broylz]

that's what the newest Accubond Long Range bullet is listed at. don't think its been released yet though...

 

[psinclair]

I could make that gun writer's mouth water with pics of large trophy big game animals I've taken over the past 10 years with my lowely .308.....don't even temp me.

Most of those writer guys have very little real world field experience......

 

[roggom]

One thing I always learned is to never say "never" or "always".

Joseph von Benedikt has "stuck his neck out" with his biased opinion, but it is only that.. an opinion.

Out on the Colorado plains 250Y isn't squat. My 20" bbl SPS-Tac launches a 178 Amax fast enough to retain 1000 ft lbs at 700Y. Now myself and many others dont just shoot a group at 100Y and call it good. Days in the summer heat or winter cold honing skill, measuring, calculating, doping wind, recording, to be sure of that first shot. Hell my girls can ring steel at 300y with no issue.

As a matter of fact, I just got back from the grasslands just to make sure my rifle dope was on. Was nailing an 8" gong at 500 till I was bored. Not bragging, but re-enforcing that fact that some "long range hunters" actually do the leg work and trigger time. in reality, with modern rifles and ammo, 500-700 really isnt that long of range.

As for caliber, I have a 7mm Mag and can use it, but I have developed muscle memory for the weight and configuration of my 308. I can shoot and be back on target within milliseconds. I have harvested plenty of Antelope and will continue to do so with my "unsuitable" 308.

 

[hillbillybear]

I could make that gun writer's mouth water with pics of large trophy big game animals I've taken over the past 10 years with my lowely .308.....don't even temp me.

Most of those writer guys have very little real world field experience......

AMEN! The author of this article is long on word processing opinion and well short on field experience killing critters.

You should send the "expert" writer some pictures. His head would explode.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Lots of BS and cherry-picked 'facts'.

The author speaking of 500 and 800 yard drop/drift in inches, rather than mils or moa, is an indicator of his LR knowledge/experience.

 

[coldboremiracle]

I could make that gun writer's mouth water with pics of large trophy big game animals I've taken over the past 10 years with my lowely .308.....don't even temp me.

Most of those writer guys have very little real world field experience......

Pat is right, I love my .308's, so damn useful it'd be the last to go I think. So many are quick to put limits on anything because of their own perceived limits. Surely much of it has to do with the DA many of you shoot in, but out here (4000+), 300-400 yds is chip shot. 308 or otherwise. I take my .308's out to beyond 1k all the time. And have killed many deer, elk, and antelope with a 308 well beyond the 3-400 yards you guys keep suggesting as its useful limits. A .308 firing 175SMK's will blow right through a set of elk shoulders even past 500 yards. This discussion about ethical shooting has been hashed out many times here, so much in fact, I needn't waste any more time on it. I'll say only this, I'm sure just as many if not more animals are wounded and not recovered inside 400yds than outside, and probably with a cartridge "more better" than a .308win.

 

[psinclair]

Case in point....my brother in law with a nice 6X6 he killed with my Surgeon .308 at 500 meters and one 208gr AMAX that broke both front shoulders, dropping him where he stood.

 

[psinclair]

Another Missouri Breaks 6X6 that my hunting pard took at 447 meters with my GAP .308. We waited over four hours for this bull to stand up out of the shade and give a good broadside shot. Alan put two 155gr scenars through his ribs that were only an inch apart. He took a few steps and crumbled right there.

 

[timjoebobbradley]

Hold on..... .640 BC 190 Accubond???

Noslser tends to be optimistic on their BC. or they have their own measurement definition, like a .640 bc nosler is not equal to a .640 sierra bc.

as an example, here are two nosler bullets with comparison of the BC by different methods of measurement:

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/AccurateSpecificationsofBallisticCoefficients.pdf

 

[long range newbie]

This cartridge has its limits but they make it seem like a 22lr when about everyone knows its effectiveness drops off at about 800yds and them saying 250 makes me get a little angry, but I don't have a 308win but my next gun will be one (hopefully a AI) oh and I just read part of it again, It doesn't matter how old the cartridge is doesn't make it worse or better, I mean look at the 22lr it was invented around 1850-1870 the 308 was made in the 1950s (correct me if I'm wrong) We still shoot probably 22lr more than any other caliber out there since we can shoot 500rnds and not even pay more than a box of 20rnds of 308.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Out of curiosity I had to google up a pic of the author.....it kinda speaks for itself.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2012/02/Von-Benedikt-and-Eastwood.jpg

 

[omurnion]

Case in point....my brother in law with a nice 6X6 he killed with my Surgeon .308 at 500 meters and one 208gr AMAX that broke both front shoulders, dropping him where he stood.

That pack out of there damn near killed me off....stupid .308!

 

[biner626]

Someone needs to tell him it's not the arrow but the Indian.

 

[redirt78]

I would like next months issue to have a full page article with facts and statements that go right along the lines of what I have read above by real hunters with countless rounds and hours of practicing both shooting and hunting and who know their own ethical limits with their experience and equipment. A lot of people reading that article don't have any business going out and shooting past 100 yards but making big blanket statements in a magazine isn't good, especially when they're not based on stats from qualified users/hunters. There is a limit to the 308 for hunting but it is not 300 yards, in some people's hands.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Oh brother, I'm not even going to waste my time debateing on that authors article, it's simply gun store counter banter material by someone who is obviously trolling the readers of that publication.

 

[hornet shooter]

Lol a picture is worth a thousand words! I Love the .308Win and I now it's limitations. With that said I have a better chance of hitting a deers vitals at 600yds than 99% of my hunting buddies do at 100yds with a 300mag.

 

[TheGerman]

There's always something better.

The 308 works. When you take into consideration things like barrel life, reloading data/capability, overall ballistics and the amount of platforms that shoot 308 you will see its not going anywhere for good reason. Would a 300WINMag be better for hunting? Sure. But 95% of the time its unnecessary.

I've been tempted alot to get back into magnum territory, but then realize that I can do the vast majority of the same work with what I already have.

From the looks of the guy in the picture, he should LOVE the 308 because he looks like he'd dislocate something if he shot anything larger.

 

[psinclair]

320 meters and a step or two from disappearing into thick brush in the last bit of shooting light. Intentionally broke both shoulders with a 155 scenar.....lucky again.

 

[Okie Gordon]

Lots of posts here that show the fact that the .308 Winchester round can do an excellent job beyond 300 yards IN THE HANDS OF A SHOOTER WHO KNOWS HOW TO SHOOT ACCURATELY AND WHO KNOWS THEIR WEAPON AND WHO PRACTICES ENOUGH TO BE COMFORTABLE WITH THE WEAPON.

You people who are doing it the right way deserve to give yourself a pat on the back,
however,
It also makes you a small minority as compared to the average hunter out there.
Remember that the magazines publish articles focused more towards newer and less experienced hunters and the referenced article follows that presumption from start to end.

We have all seen the people the article is focused towards over and over at the range and in the field.
Heck, how many people who go hunting even bother to do anything beyond buying one or two boxes of ammo when they purchase a rifle?
Maybe they also decide that since the scope is already mounted on the rifle when they bought it, the rifle must be sighted in to shoot 2" high at 100 yards like all the articles preach.
The vast majority of the people who take their centerfire rifle hunting for big game pull the rifle out of the closet the weekend before opening weekend, wipe off the dust, and decide it will hit whatever they aim at because they used 15 or 20 rounds to sight it in many years before when the weapon was new.

Those of us who are experienced and knowledgeable shooters do all the things everybody should do to be responsible sportsmen.
We practice regularly with the weapon for several months before the actual hunt, expending hundred rounds in practice for each round actually shot at game in the field.
We have verified dope for the load being utilized well beyond the actual hunting range we intend to limit ourselves.
We have appropriate accessories such as laser range finders to get exact yardages when taking shots past 200 yards.
We wait for the proper shot to present itself and pass up on shots that could wound rather than kill cleanly.
Those of us who do this are the top 1% of hunters and sportsmen, not the focus of articles in gun magazines.

 

[MontanaMarine]

The way I see it is like this,

An experienced and knowledgable long range shooter/hunter can easily drive a 308 to 600 yards, and beyond. That same shooter has the skills/knowledge/experience to truly capitalize on the ballistics of a 300 WinMag.

Your 20-rounds-per-year shooter/hunter will be challenged shooting the 308 to 300 yards, and will most likely do a lot worse with a 300 WinMag.

 

[coldboremiracle]

[patting self on back] I agree with most of what Okie Gordon said, the exception being; my cousins 12YO boy nailed a puny 2 point last year, much like Pats story above. Last bit of shooting light, deer sneaking off, 320 yds away, and nothing but a bean pole white boy and a remington 700 chambered in .308 standing between this deer and his future harem. He made the shot. The scenario Okie G speaks of happens, and will continue so, whether it be .308, 25-06, or .223. Like someone said above, its the indian, not the arrow. I was told as a younger man; "A .223 is too small for deer." But that didnt stop me from killing my first deer with one. They also said my 25-06 was too light for elk, but my first elk fell to a single shot, fired off the knee, that blew a hole right throught her heart. Too small, too light, too far, no knock down power, ect. excuses every one. its all about the synergy of a man and his rifle (to quote someones signature)

 

[deadly_punk]

A fine example of why I've quit reading pretty much all main-stream hunting/shooting magazines. Pure nonsense.

 

[RCT]

That pack out of there damn near killed me off....stupid .308!

Now that's funny!

But, in my opinion, the only "legitimate" reason suggested so far to be hating on the 308......

 

[SledDog]

I wonder what their feelings are about something like the 30-30, which has probably taken more game in NA than any other cartridge. It almost sounds like they put the 308 in the same range and category, and I don't think anyone truly believes they are similar performing rounds.

 

[CoryT]

The .308

Note that W.M.D Bell took most of his 1000+ elephants with a 7x57 Mauser. I'm pretty sure most of us would not suggest that caliber to anyone headed to Africa for elephant. The fact that one has repeatedly used a less than adequate tool to perform a task does not make that tool the best one for the job. You can kill a moose with a .22LR, but that's not what I'd suggest for a moose hunt.

I don't see anything in the article that would suggest he thinks the .308 is incapable of getting the job done at 800 yards, just that there are lot's of FAR BETTER choices, and he's not wrong.

 

[Cplski7242]

Something that he did not bring up in his article is "overkill" which is huge thing for hunters. A 300 win mag is a nice fast powerful round, but considering MOST shots on deer that I have taken on deer have been from inside 250 yards if i shot it with a round that transfers that much energy, im not so sure i would have a whole lot of meat left...

I cannot attest the to the .308's capabilities on anything but deer but for me it works just fine




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[19Scout77]

What's a .308?

 

[Cplski7242]

Apparently it is a shit round for hunting lol


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[BoilerUP]

If you can't drive a 308...you won't be able to drive a 270, '06 or 300WM.

"There's no replacement for displacement" but horsepower is useless unless you can keep the damn thing between the lines.

 

[spoon063]

It took them literally about 15 seconds to delete my post

 

[Twitch2120]

"The problem with that logic is, an 800-yard hit on a terrorist’s kneecap counts. Wounding is often considered even more effective in war than killing, and more humane. But shooting at game is different. Wounding is anything but humane. Fast, relatively painless kills are not just ethical, but they are also critical to both our peace of mind as hunters and to the future of hunting as a sport. If you’re going to shoot long on God’s living, breathing animals, you owe it to them to use the best tool for the job."

hunters>animals>terrorists?

we owe it to the animals to kill quickly but not other humans?

 

[SteveTimm]

320 meters and a step or two from disappearing into thick brush in the last bit of shooting light. Intentionally broke both shoulders with a 155 scenar.....lucky again.

Damn, Pat, are you still shooting dinks? :grin:

I was a gun writer for a little over twenty-five years. There are gun writers who are the real deal, like Johnny Barsness and Chub Eastman. Then, there are gun writers who should probably never be allowed to shoot, much less write about their incredible ignorance; Clair Rees and Clay Harvey come to mind.

Gun writers are kinda like kids. There are good kids, and they never get any notice. Then, there are bad kids and they spoil it for all the rest of that generation. Speaking of that, Pat you can be really, really proud of your children ... good on you.

By the way, the last time I was at Rod Coulter's out of Brusett, I kinda stretched the barrel of my little Blue Thang 7-08 Ackley. It was just dusk and there was a huge old hawg of a mule deer buck that was clear across a winter wheat field and he desparately needed killing. A single 120 Ballistic rolled him and he was dead. Then, Karen and I had to hump the big stinky rutted-up old bugger lots of 100s of yards across the field of gumbo.

Karen says HI and sends a BIG HUG. Me, too.

God Bless,

Steve Timm

 

[psinclair]

Steve, for what it's worth, You're one of the good ones.....!!

Give your lovely wife my regards!

Our door is always unlockd for you guys......

 

[grooVe]

When I was a teenager I can remember my grandpa bad-mouthing 308 a lot. He was a huge 300 Win Mag fanboy and loved to talk about how .308 just "drops off the table," or how he wasn't about to start "mortaring rounds at his target" with something like .308. When I would ask him why then .308 was such a popular round he would simply respond with, "Do you know how much a .308 drops after 200 yards?" Of course I did not. Like the article, he also took issue with the humaneness of shooting long distances with what he considered an under powered round. He would say that the reason he loved 300 Win Mag so much was because he could zero his rifle at 200 yards and then didn't have to worry about holding over or under when he was out hunting. "I just have to put the cross-hairs on them and pull the trigger!" I think such a statement echos what Cplski7242 was talking about in regards to "overkill." Basically my gramps wanted something as close to a laserbeam as possible. LOL!

Because of his talk, I remember looking up the ballistics of his Federal 300 Win Mag round along with a similar Federal 308 load. I don't remember exactly, but the difference in drop at 500 yards between a 308 and 300 WinMag, shooting a 165gr bullet (I think) was less than 9 inches. Now I'm sure 300 Win Mag has a lot more energy on target, but for drop that doesn't seem to me like a HUGE difference. Maybe it is... I don't know. I'm no hunter, so maybe 8 or 9 inches is a huge deal for them. My gramps obviously thought so.

 

[Srcochran49]

In my opinion, most if not all gun/hunting magazines are simply shills for their advertisers, and most articles are written for fudds who don't know any better.
Unfortunately, articles like this only encourage said readers to run out and buy a 300 magnum so that they too can make those 800 yard shots. The growing emphasis on long range hunting only encourages the numerous "slob" or road hunter to attempt unethical shots at distances far beyond their capabilities.

 

[Al Rick]

Yep, I would shy away from a .308 as well. It just barley made a one shot kill on this ram at 290+/- yards with those darn Hornady A-Max bullets.

 

[omurnion]

I'm not trying to start a pissing match on anyones hunting rifles choices. Plan and simple I have shot a 300 WM more than I ever cared to. A good friend of mine had one in an A-bolt. The recoil on that thing was so brutal that it broke 3 scopes in one day at the range, 2 Burris and one Leupold. After around 800 rounds the barrel was totally roached. Maybe some guys enjoy the process of re barreling rifles and working up new loads on a regular basis, but I don't. I like to go out and shoot a 100 rounds if I feel like it and not be worried about wearing out my barrel. That's the great thing about a .308, I really don't care what anyone hunts with as long as they are deadly with it. The bottom line is you can kill just about anything with just about anything, IF you know how to operate it properly. All most of these dorks that write articles like this really care about is selling magazines.

 

[gunslinger07]

When I was a teenager I can remember my grandpa bad-mouthing 308 a lot. He was a huge 300 Win Mag fanboy and loved to talk about how .308 just "drops off the table," or how he wasn't about to start "mortaring rounds at his target" with something like .308. When I would ask him why then .308 was such a popular round he would simply respond with, "Do you know how much a .308 drops after 200 yards?" Of course I did not. Like the article, he also took issue with the humaneness of shooting long distances with what he considered an under powered round. He would say that the reason he loved 300 Win Mag so much was because he could zero his rifle at 200 yards and then didn't have to worry about holding over or under when he was out hunting. "I just have to put the cross-hairs on them and pull the trigger!" I think such a statement echos what Cplski7242 was talking about in regards to "overkill." Basically my gramps wanted something as close to a laserbeam as possible. LOL!

EXACTLY! Put the crosshairs on and pull the trigger, no skill of having to do anything else needed. Thats what people like the writer want to do. Having to range, calculate, and dial in takes practice and effort, which apparently people do not want to do. I use to be in that camp with my 7mm WSM. Now I'm hunting with a GAP 308 this season, the first time in 10 years I'll be hunting with anything other than a 7mm WSM. It is basically an art form to master it, or really just get good. It takes time, effort, and knowledge.

 

[Jaeger308]

For mid and long range hunting shots, whatever ranges that means to you as an individual; you need to figure out what works for you and where your own ethics bar is set. Text book the max range on a 300 lbs animal using an average 175 gr 30 cal bullet is ~500 yards for a .308 and ~700 yards for a 300 WM. I said text book, not the end all answer, for those who only study ballistic charts, energy vs range graphs and conclude a firm answer from that are rifle shooters at best IMHO, those who use this information as a foundation and go shoot to find their own answers are rifle marksman. Add wind calls into the mix and most of you know where that goes?

This discussion is very similar to the “which handgun caliber is best”… “Well I shoot a .45, because” fill in the blank; you have heard and read them all. You know why I personally carry and shoot a 1911 .45? Because it is the one I have the best accuracy with. I have killed many critters with a .308, I also drive a .338 LM on special occasions between the two I own any and all real estate around me just need to choose dependent on mission.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Text book the max range on a 300 lbs animal using an average 175 gr 30 cal bullet is ~500 yards for a .308 and ~700 yards for a 300 WM. I said text book, not the end all answer

Which text book, and where did it come from?

 

[Jaeger308]

Which text book, and where did it come from?

Brian Litz's book Applied Ballistics for LR shooting

As I said not the end all answer, I would suggest less than 25% of all rifle hunters out there truly understand Point Blank Zero for a given caliber and set up their rifles for it. The article in the OP is geared for the other 75%.

 

[coldboremiracle]

BTW, here is a pic of the deer my cousins boy dropped at 320 with a .308, one shot. It was dark by the time they found him. From my earlier post. 180 SST.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Brian Litz's book Applied Ballistics for LR shooting

As I said not the end all answer, I would suggest less than 25% of all rifle hunters out there truly understand Point Blank Zero for a given caliber and set up their rifles for it. The article in the OP is geared for the other 75%.

I agree, though it maybe more like 20/80 or even 15/85.