Why "Hold" edge of plate?

[fmjfirearms]

I see a lot of references to holding edge of plate when shooting steels.
I get that if the plates are close in there's no need to dial in windage just allow for the wind.
But you guys seem to do it at longer ranges, past 600?
In the UK a lot of guys dial for wind and aim centre plate and adjust from there.
Just wondering why "Edge" of plate?
Do you not put in any windage and just hold?

 

[308pirate]

Hold offs are easier to deal with when the wind is rapidly picking up and letting off, or when it's switchy from side to side.

If you can identify a prevailing wind, have no shifts in direction, and the pickups and let offs are not too severe, dialing for the prevailing wind and holding off during the letoffs and pickups can be very effective.

Also, are you talking about multiple shots to the same target (like fullbore or f class) or more practical shooting where you get one or two tries at a steel plate and then move on to another target?

 

[dspjaggar]

my humble, probably wrong opinion... were not ( im not ) perfect at calling wind so i would equate it to making a putt at the top of the cup vs the middle or bottom, golfers will get the reference.

if i hold edge and my wind call is perfect im scoring a hit, if im wrong i have the whole rest of the target for a possible impact and a better idea of where i should be.

 

[themightytimmah]

When I think “edge of plate”, I think about a quick shot with no wind call. In light winds, you can feel the direction pretty clearly so as long as the true wind call is less than the width of the target, holding edge into the wind will get you a hit. If you have sighters, it’ll get you close on a miss and you can adjust for your second shot.

 

[Sheldon N]

Most competitors hold for wind rather than dialing. In an individual stage at a field match there may be changes in shooting angle and target distance that make dialing very difficult to do in a limited time frame, not to mention the fact that wind can change in both speed and angle from shot to shot.

The common "hold left edge" mentality comes from the bullet's natural spin drift to the right, pulling you back on plate, and from people who shoot in areas where there is not much wind. Go to any match where there is real wind and your opening shot may be holding 1 or 2 mils of wind either left or right. In that scenario a "left edge" hold is likely to be a very poor initial wind call.

 

[Fig]

What 308 said, but why in the world would you try and relate a correction as a mathematical value when you can see the splash and see where a shot missed actually at the target?

This is the whole point of heavy, short action rifles that kick like a kindergarten girl. We see the miss so there’s only one on that target.

The miss was 6” right...
Hold the left edge of the plate and IMPACT!
Screwing with windage or trying to convert that call to mils at range is time consuming and pointless.

 

[308pirate]

The miss was 6” right...
Hold the left edge of the plate and IMPACT!
Screwing with windage or trying to convert that call to mils at range is time consuming and pointless.

Converting the miss to mils (or minutes) and aiming off is done in less than 5 seconds with the proper reticle. I have no idea what 6 inches looks like downrange.

 

[SSSamurai]

Simplicity in a fast paced, dynamic environment. When you're on the clock, dialing and holding together requires math, but using an evolving wind hold is just one number that adapts to the current scenario. I've watched lots of shooters forget that they dialed wind, or mess up the math with dial + hold and miss the target. The only time I dial wind is on movers, i will update my wind dialed so that my ambush point stays the same relative to the movers direction.

 

[Fig]

You're right, more like a plate width, or whatever. The call is hold the edge, or hold a half or a full plate whichever direction. If it's way off then it's a lot harder to give a correction call. You're really not supposed to do that in a competition, but when it's a new shooter everyone looks the other way. I meant that more in the sense that if you know it's a full ipsc then it's 18"x 30"tall, or a 66% or a 33% or a 4"x4" plate of whatever the target is.
I know the size of the target, so I know how far the actual miss was without doing any math. That's not what the call is, but you know actually how far if you know the size of the target.

 

[walkabout]

Thanks guys, really good answers
I will try those techniques next time out
It is in a practical style shooting I was meaning

 

[308pirate]

I meant that more in the sense that if you know it's a full ipsc then it's 18"x 30"tall, or a 66% or a 33% or a 4"x4" plate of whatever the target is.

It doesn't matter what the size of the target is in linear units. It doesn't matter if I know or not. I don't care what the actual size of the target is.

The only time I call out corrections in fractions of target width (or height) is if I'm using my spotter (Kowa) and it doesn't have a reticle in the eyepiece. The shooter will adjust in mils because he knows how many mils wide and tall the target is looking through the rifle scope.

If I'm using my rifle to spot, I'll call the correction in mils.

Nowhere in any of those evolutions do I consider the size of the target in inches/centimeters/yards/whatever.

I don't know why that crutch persists.

 

[Dthomas3523]

There’s two things going on here. IMO, one is correct (under circumstances) and one is not.

Holding wind is the “correct” portion. If you have single target and/or stable wind, you can dial. Nothing wrong with either. Dialing and holding both have their uses and sometimes it’s preference. I could type quite a bit, but I think most everyone gets it.

Now, on to the “incorrect” part, in my opinion. Referencing the edges of the plate.

When we start focusing on a certain part of the target (center, edge, etc), that’s where many times we will subconsciously reference for corrections.

For example, if we are focused on the center of plate and we are holding center, if we see our miss splash at 1mil, we move that 1 Mil to center on corrction.

If we are focusing on the edge of the plate with center crosshair, and we see our miss splash at 1 mil, many times if we aren’t careful, we move that 1 Mil to the edge of the plate instead of center. Then our error budget on plate is much less.

IMO, this is one of the biggest reasons we see the “same spot” miss called over and over. Most people don’t miss more than .2 or .3 off the side of the plate (unless at longer ranges). So, they are focused on the edge of the plate, they miss .2 off. What they should be doing is making a .5 correction to center. But, they are under time and thinking subconsciously. So, they move over .2 to the edge. Wind doesn’t need to change much to throw it off the edge. So, you have this scenario:

Shooter holds edge and misses

Spotter: miss just off the right edge

Shooter only corrects .2 to edge, fires again and wind picked up just enough to keep it off the plate

Spotter: same place you need to come left

Shooter: I did come left, something is wrong

 

[morganlamprecht]

There’s two things going on here. IMO, one is correct (under circumstances) and one is not.

Holding wind is the “correct” portion. If you have single target and/or stable wind, you can dial. Nothing wrong with either. Dialing and holding both have their uses and sometimes it’s preference. I could type quite a bit, but I think most everyone gets it.

Now, on to the “incorrect” part, in my opinion. Referencing the edges of the plate.

When we start focusing on a certain part of the target (center, edge, etc), that’s where many times we will subconsciously reference for corrections.

For example, if we are focused on the center of plate and we are holding center, if we see our miss splash at 1mil, we move that 1 Mil to center on corrction.

If we are focusing on the edge of the plate with center crosshair, and we see our miss splash at 1 mil, many times if we aren’t careful, we move that 1 Mil to the edge of the plate instead of center. Then our error budget on plate is much less.

IMO, this is one of the biggest reasons we see the “same spot” miss called over and over. Most people don’t miss more than .2 or .3 off the side of the plate (unless at longer ranges). So, they are focused on the edge of the plate, they miss .2 off. What they should be doing is making a .5 correction to center. But, they are under time and thinking subconsciously. So, they move over .2 to the edge. Wind doesn’t need to change much to throw it off the edge. So, you have this scenario:

Shooter holds edge and misses

Spotter: miss just off the right edge

Shooter only corrects .2 to edge, fires again and wind picked up just enough to keep it off the plate

Spotter: same place you need to come left

Shooter: I did come left, something is wrong

this is why i always try to and tell others to call "to center" if you have a reticle...a lot of people get stuck just happy to hit the plate, and dont consider their error budget for follow up shots....im tryin to smoke that sucker dead center every time

when im shooting, i base all my holds off center, but its hard when talking with other shooters who use the whole "edge/just off edge" lingo...i say "well what was that in mils?" a lot when tryin to discuss corrections for people... "edge" of a 10" plate at 400 may hit, when "edge" of a 4" plate wouldnt be enough

 

[Dthomas3523]

this is why i always try to and tell others to call "to center" if you have a reticle...a lot of people get stuck just happy to hit the plate, and dont consider their error budget for follow up shots....im tryin to smoke that sucker dead center every time

when im shooting, i base all my holds off center, but its hard when talking with other shooters who use the whole "edge/just off edge" lingo...i say "well what was that in mils?" a lot when tryin to discuss corrections for people... "edge" of a 10" plate at 400 may hit, when "edge" of a 4" plate wouldnt be enough

Same. I try to always do a quick measurement as soon as I get down. But I always assume a .6 target unless I know it’s going to be much larger or smaller. So I always make at least a .5 correction on a miss unless something is obviously different.

Another thing that helped a lot was to stop listening to 90% of Shooter’s wind calls as they don’t mention the .2 of trigger slapping they used

 

[morganlamprecht]

Same. I try to always do a quick measurement as soon as I get down. But I always assume a .6 target unless I know it’s going to be much larger or smaller. So I always make at least a .5 correction on a miss unless something is obviously different.

Another thing that helped a lot was to stop listening to 90% of Shooter’s wind calls as they don’t mention the .2 of trigger slapping they used

lol yes, the hardest thing for me to do is ignoring someones wind who just did good or even really bad...

"i held .3..." and they zero'd it...

dang, i was gunna hold .3...ill do my high wind of .5 instead....then miss the first shot with .2 too much...lol bastard...ive gotten better at it the last couple years tho, makes it easier shooting first also

 

[Steel head]

I have no idea what 6 inches looks like downrange.

That’s an opportunity I’m not gonna exploit because of the great post he made before.

 

[Fig]

I did miswrite that earlier. In my mind I’m in mils exclusively behind the scope if I’m not right off the target. If I am or I get an impact on/near the edge I'm not even looking at that, but just moving the crosshair the same amount the other way. Like dthomas I'm always trying to hit the center. The matchbook always has the target size in it, and I've shot enough to know how big a full, 66% and 33% are without thinking about it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’ve also learned not to trust matchbooks. They are right most of the time. But when they’re not, it sucks if you don’t check it.

 

[ScottDWallace]

I’ve also learned not to trust matchbooks. They are right most of the time. But when they’re not, it sucks if you don’t check it.

Fact!

I always laser the targets now. Our "local" rimfire match is notoriously off a yard here, seven there. That shit makes a difference at 150!

 

[Ugly_Duck]

Following

 

[fencewire]

here is a video regarding holding the edge... This starts towards the end of the video

 

[Dthomas3523]

here is a video regarding holding the edge... This starts towards the end of the video

Except he promotes aiming at the edge. Bad habit to get into.

 

[Forward543]

Hold wind for dynamic ranges on short time. Dial for static distance. Or dial wind for mover distance and hold lead.

 

[Matches Malone]

I seen the issue of holding beaten to death, but as to edge of plate, bracketing and adding probability of error is the answer.

First is, know that most people under value their wind. Most people don’t apply enough, so if you have a right to left wind, most people still miss to the left. They call missing to the right in their particular issue missing to the professional side.

If you have a target that .3 mils wide, in the same situation as above. Your wind call is .5 in wind. Wind is varying and timing your shot is impossible since it’s varying so quickly and randomly you would increase probability in this case by holding .5 right edge in theory giving you a .2 mil cushion adding to probability.

On the flip side, if you use the wind gust that is the longest and most constant, still holding right edge from the initial example, you should still hit right edge if the initial call is exact ancorrect.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I seen the issue of holding beaten to death, but as to edge of plate, bracketing and adding probability of error is the answer.

First is, know that most people under value their wind. Most people don’t apply enough, so if you have a right to left wind, most people still miss to the left. They call missing to the right in their particular issue missing to the professional side.

If you have a target that .3 mils wide, in the same situation as above. Your wind call is .5 in wind. Wind is varying and timing your shot is impossible since it’s varying so quickly and randomly you would increase probability in this case by holding .5 right edge in theory giving you a .2 mil cushion adding to probability.

On the flip side, if you use the wind gust that is the longest and most constant, still holding right edge from the initial example, you should still hit right edge if the initial call is exact ancorrect.

You still don’t want to hold .5 on right edge. Hold .7 or .8 to center. Same effect, but you get away from referencing the edges.

 

[Matches Malone]

I think you have the pro side example backwards. Missing upwind, holding too much, is the Pro side. Milking your wind call and being scared and then as a result, missing downwind is the novice trend.

Except in the case of a lull.

The idea of error or wind budget is that you're centering the lull and the gust over the center of the plate. Lull is .3, gust is .7, hold .5 on the cemter of the plate and you have .2 on either side inside the plate. In your example, a .3mil wide plate is 1moa. Not very usual in a match. So this is an extreme or rare case that your logic is based on.

Youre right, I got that backwards. Downside of multitasking, I fixed in my post.

Second, not everything is a PRS match. But still, people are using particular cartridges, with particular bullets, loading them at borderline ridiculous velocities that are typically outside the norm some norms.
Bracketing wind and giving a cushion of error is just being smart for the idea of hitting the target in general. Prs is a matter of gaming the game and adjusting off misses.

I was unaware the OP was being specific to PRS. For all I know, he just wants to make a hit out past 600y.

 

[Matches Malone]

You still don’t want to hold .5 on right edge. Hold .7 or .8 to center. Same effect, but you get away from referencing the edges.

I agree with this, but that is assuming you know to add extra wind to your given .5 wind call. The issue is people’s initial call can be off, especially where kestrels might be in a enclosed terrain where you are catching more swirls then clean wind.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I agree with this, but that is assuming you know to add extra wind to your given .5 wind call. The issue is people’s initial call can be off, especially where kestrels might be in a enclosed terrain where you are catching more swirls then clean wind.

We don’t teach people to slap a trigger until they learn not to. We teach them to make a good trigger press.

Shooters are far better off being told either to A: hold the .5 on the center and learn to make better calls or B) add .3 to all their calls until they get better

Both while holding center. Having them make their wind call at say .5 and having them hold the edge is forming bad habits instead of telling them to add half a target to their wind call. While learning to base everything off center plate.

 

[Matches Malone]

We don’t teach people to slap a trigger until they learn not to. We teach them to make a good trigger press.

Shooters are far better off being told either to A: hold the .5 on the center and learn to make better calls or B) add .3 to all their calls until they get better

Both while holding center. Having them make their wind call at say .5 and having them hold the edge is forming bad habits instead of telling them to add half a target to their wind call. While learning to base everything off center plate.

We aren’t taking about fundamentals of marksmanship. There is whatsaboutism in this that negates that issue that you can control what you do to the rifle, but you cannot control the wind behavior and there are a lot more depending factors.

As most of us know, wind calling is not exact science
If you can teach someone to dope wind within .1 mil then I’m all ears but often times, as life would have it, it’s a game of probability especially as the targets get smaller and the targets get further and the wind is less predictable in conditions you’re not used to in a place you’ve never been. We know the kestrel only gets you so far.

 

[Matches Malone]

So, thinking about your post and you mentioned the Pro side discussion. I guess what you're trying to do by holding the wind call that is normally calculated for middle of target on the upwind edge to hold just a little more wind than what a person would estimate to hedge to the Pro Side. Is that what you're after?

Essentially. It’s to give a little bit extra margin of error to the call. In most cases with steel, a hit is a hit. For a 1000 bench, this is different. They rely on their spotters.

 

[Matches Malone]

I'd still just hold center. If I was going to hedge towards more wind, I'll start with my estimate of the wind speed first so I'll have a start point to revert to. If you're hedging in tenths of a mil, .7 instead of a .6 at 585....what does that become at 767? Know what I mean?

The good news is it’s measurable. That’s how bracketing works. To be fair, there is limits to all tools in this. The target can be far, and small. To which case you will need as close to a perfect wind estimate and solution as possible. But a target around 2 miles that is 36x36, you have about a solid .2 mils to bracket. In short it depends if this usable. But I can tell you .2 mils is (off the top of my head) something like 122 inches or about 3 targets off target at this distance. From edge to edge.

However, there are more important things, like being in a different wind gradient that come into play as well, so I’m not under playing the difficulty of wind calls. At 767 yards most rounds being used are fairly flat and going supersonic and thus less margin of error in itself.

 

[hlee]

“Edge of plate” is a crutch, and a bit of an inside joke too. It’s saying “I’m shooting a wind-cheater cartridge and am just going to barely WAG a wind call and fling one down there. If I over-valued the wind then I’ll still be on the plate. And, if I’ve under-valued it then I’ve still got the whole plate to work with.”

 

[Dunraven]

Simplicity in a fast paced, dynamic environment. When you're on the clock, dialing and holding together requires math, but using an evolving wind hold is just one number that adapts to the current scenario. I've watched lots of shooters forget that they dialed wind, or mess up the math with dial + hold and miss the target. The only time I dial wind is on movers, i will update my wind dialed so that my ambush point stays the same relative to the movers direction.

thx. i hadn't thought of dialing wind for movers. DUH, right?