Why is this happening?

Duckslayer12

Private
Minuteman
Aug 19, 2009
47
0
32
PA
This should have been a good load but I dont know what happened. I checked to make sure all my rings and scope mounts were tight which they were. Im shooting an older Remington 700 BDL in .22-250 with a heavy barrel. The scope is an older Leupold Vari III 6.5-20x40. This is not a good group at all considering that im shooting from 50yards away because thats all the room I have until the soybean fields are cut. Each square on the target is a 1/4". Am I making some kind of error that would cause the string to go diagnol? Sorry if this is in the wrong forum!

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Re: Why is this happening?

Three guesses, and they're just guesses without seeing you shoot.

1. Head shifting over the stock compensating for recoil and reposition.

2. Mirage

3. Erector tube crawling on the tension spring, possible although not likely unless you have a bunch of windage cranked in to get the rifle to zero.
 
Re: Why is this happening?

....my guess = bedding issue + barrel heat..how fast are you shooting


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speedy Gonzalez, noted shooter, gunsmith and recent inductee into the Benchrest Hall of Fame, offers these pearls of wisdom to help you eliminate vertical in your shot strings. Remember that vertical can result from myriad gear issues and gun-handling mistakes. Try to isolate one item at a time as you work to improve your groups.

MECHANICAL and HARDWARE ISSUES

• Barrel Weight--A lot of rifles are muzzle-heavy. Some rifles have too heavy a barrel and this causes vertical, especially when shooting free recoil. Basically the gun wants to tip forward. The remedy is to trim or flute the barrel, or add weight in the rear (if you can stay within weight limits).

• Unbalanced Rifle--If the rifle is not balanced, it does not recoil straight, and it will jump in the bags. If the rifle is built properly this will not happen. Clay Spencer calls this "recoil balancing", and he uses dual scales (front and rear) to ensure the rifle recoils properly.

• Firing Pin--A number of firing-pin issues can cause vertical. First, a firing pin spring that is either too weak or too strong will induce vertical problems. If you think this is the problem change springs and see what happens. Second, a firing pin that is not seated correctly in the bolt (in the cocked position) will cause poor ignition. Take the bolt out of rifle and look in the firing pin hole. If you cannot see the entire end of firing pin it has come out of the hole. Lastly, a firing pin dragging in bolt or shroud can cause vertical. Listen to the sound when you dry fire. If you don't hear the same sound each shot, something is wrong.

• Trigger--A trigger sear with excessive spring load can cause problems. To diagnose, with an UNLOADED gun, hold the trigger in firing position and push down on sear with your thumb. If it is hard to push down, this will cause vertical problems.

• Stock Flex--Some stocks are very flexible. This can cause vertical. There are ways to stiffen stocks, but sometimes replacement is the best answer.

• Reliability--ALL your bench equipment must work flawlessly. If it doesn't, get it fixed or get rid of it. We need all our attention on wind flags.

GUN HANDLING and BENCH TECHNIQUE

• Be Consistent--You can get vertical if your bench technique is not the same every shot. One common problem is putting your shoulder against the stock for one shot and not the next.

• Free Recoil--Free recoil shooters should be sure their rifle hits their shoulder squarely on recoil, not on the edge of their shoulder or the side of their arm.

• Head Position--Learn to keep your head down and follow-through after each shot. Stay relaxed and hold your position after breaking the shot.

• Eyes--Learn to shoot with both eyes open so you can see more of the conditions.

• Last Shot Laziness--If the 5th shot is a regular problem, you may be guilty of what I call "wishing the last shot in". This is a very common mistake. We just aim, pull the trigger, and do not worry about the wind flags. Note that in the photo above, the 5th shot was the highest in the group--probably because of fatigue or lack of concentration.

• Last Shot Low--I hear a lot of discussion about low shots in a group and apparently this occurs a lot on the 5th shot. If your 5th shot that goes out most of the time, you can bet you are doing something at the bench.

• Seating--When possible, bring your own stool so that you can sit comfortably, at a consistent height, every time you shoot.

LOAD TUNING

• Find the Sweet Spot--A load that is too light or too heavy can cause vertical problems. When you've tuned the load right, you should see a reduction in vertical. Even 0.1 grain may make a difference, as will small changes in seating depth.

• Primers--If you're getting vertical, and everything else looks fine, try another brand of primers. And remove the carbon from the primer pockets so the primers seat uniformly every time.

• Case Prep--When you chamfer the inside of your case necks make sure they are smooth enough that they don't peel jacket material off when you seat the bullet. Bullets with J4 Jackets (like Bergers) and Lapua Scenar bullets seem more prone to jacket scratching or tearing than Sierra bullets.

• Shell Holders--Keep shell holders clean, in both your press and priming tool. I have seen so much dirt/crud in shell holders that the cases end up get sized crooked because the rim is not square to the die.

• Water in Cases--I see people walking around with case necks turned up in the loading block. A lot of the time there is condensation dropping from the roof of your loading area. If one drop of water gets in a case you are in trouble. How many times have you had a bad low shot when it has been raining and you have been walking around with your cases turned up in your block?

BAGS and REST--VERY IMPORTANT

• Front Rest Wobble--You will get vertical if the top section of the front rest is loose. Unfortunately, a lot of rests have movement even when you tighten them as much as you can. This can cause unexplained shots.

• Rifle Angle--If the gun is not level, but rather angles down at muzzle end, the rifle will recoil up at butt-end, causing vertical. You may need to try different rear bags to get the set-up right.

• Front Bag Tension--Vertical can happen if the front sand bag grips the fore-arm too tightly. If, when you pull the rifle back by hand, the fore-arm feels like it is stuck in the bag, then the front bag's grip is too tight. Your rifle should move in evenly and smoothly in the sand bags, not jerk or chatter when you pull the gun back by hand.

• Sandbag Fill--A front sandbag that is too hard can induce vertical. Personally, I've have never had a rifle that will shoot consistently with a rock-hard front sandbag. It always causes vertical or other unexplained shots.


• If the channel between the Rear Bag's ears is not in line with the barrel, but is twisted left or right, this can affect recoil and vertical consistency. If the bag is off-axis quite a bit, you will get horizontal stringing.

SCOPE ISSUES

• Lock Rings--This year alone I have seen nine lock rings on scopes that are not tight. Guess what that does to your group? Make sure yours are tight.

• Big Tubes Need Tension--We've observed that some 30mm scope rings are not getting tight enough, and scopes are slipping in the rings under recoil. This will cause point of aim movement.

• Windage Bases--If you're using a conventional-style single dovetail with rear windage adjustment, make sure both sides of the windage screws are tight. This can induce both windage AND vertical issues since the rear ring is held down by the windage tension.

AWARENESS of CONDITIONS and READING WIND

• Basic Wind-Reading Rule--If you do not know how to read wind flags or are very inexperienced, try to shoot your group with the flags all going in one direction.

• Rate of Fire--The longer you wait between shots when a condition is changing, the more the condition change will affect your shots.

• Look Far and Wide--Learn to look at the whole field of flags, not just the row in front of you. Many times a change quite a ways out will cause shot to go out of your group well before that change shows up in front of your bench.

• Don't Fear the Wind--When you realize that the wind is your friend you will become a much better benchrest shooter. By this I mean that wind skills can separate you from other shooters who have equally good equipment. To learn how to read the wind, you must practice in challenging winds, not only in good conditions.

• Watch Wind Direction AND Velocity--Pay attention to angle changes on flags. Even though you see the same windspeed indicators, angle changes make a big difference in your groups.

• Watch While You Wait--Between courses of fire, whenever possible, watch conditions on the range. That way you will be aware of any changes in conditions since your last group and you will be mentally prepared for the new condition.

<span style="font-weight: bold">SPECIAL ADVICE for HUNTING RIFLES

• Clean That Barrel--Most hunting rifle barrels do not get cleaned enough. If you keep barrel clean it will shoot better for you. You should clean your barrel well after every 10 to 12 shots. If you're lazy, just use Wipe-Out.

• First Shot Inconsistency--Most hunting rifles will not put the first shot (after cleaning) with the subsequent shots. So, after cleaning, if you have a rifle that tosses that first shot high or wide, then shoot one fouling shot before going hunting or before you shoot for group.

• Barrel Heat--Thin-contour "sporter" barrels WILL change point of impact as they heat up. When testing loads for your hunting rifle, take your time and don't let the barrel get hot on you.</span>

</div></div>
 
Re: Why is this happening?

Michael, your guess #1 could be a possiblility. I dont think I am holding the rifle and having my head in the exact place everytime I shoot.

ATH, I let the gun cool between each shot. I try to have the barrel at roughly the same temp. for every shot but I can never perfectly do that.
 
Re: Why is this happening?

Make sure the barrel is free floated in the stock channel
(slide a $1 bill under it).
Action screws tight.

Using good form on your part give it another go. My pet load for my 22/250 was 35.5 grains of IMR-4064 with a 52 Sierra BTHP on top.
H380 works well also if you prefer ball powder and a tad more speed. I would look for loose action screws or forearm pressure.
My varmint rig I always shoot off the bipod and it grouped the same off the pod or bags. YMMV.
 
Re: Why is this happening?

I know the gun isnt full lengthed bedded or anything like that and the barrel isnt free floating which bothers me. Im not to worrid about having the action pillar bedded or anything. But I would like to know if there is any way I can get the barrel to free float without having to take it to a gunsmith or without having to take a dremel tool to the forend of the stock?
 
Re: Why is this happening?

"This should have been a good load ...."

I can't help but wonder why you say that unless it's a specific load that has previously grouped better. ???
 
Re: Why is this happening?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"This should have been a good load ...."

I can't help but wonder why you say that unless it's a specific load that has previously grouped better. ??? </div></div>

+1....If it is a previous load that has shot good I would suggest it might have a carbon ring built up just past chamber....I had a 223 that started opening up a little with know loads and found that to be the problem. One good scrubbing and it solved the problem. If it's just a load someone else has good luck with don't count on it getting better.
 
Re: Why is this happening?

DOES YOUR SCOPE HAVE PARALLAX ADJUSTMENT? If a scope has parallax adjustment it shouldnt matter where your head is against the stock right?
 
Re: Why is this happening?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gregp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> DOES YOUR SCOPE HAVE PARALLAX ADJUSTMENT? If a scope has parallax adjustment it shouldnt matter where your head is against the stock right? </div></div>

+1

This could easily be the culprit.
 
Re: Why is this happening?

First off get your position and technique consistant which is gun on bags in same place each shot, same cheek pressure, same grip etc. You want to become a machine rest with absolute repeatability.

2nd "older barrel" depending on how it was cleaned and rate of fire is a big factor. I have seen Remington barrels go down in 500 rounds in 30 cal and the 22-250 is as hard on barrels if not harder than 30 cal.

Pull up Brownell's and get a barrel channel set.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=b...=barrel_channel

and open up your own barrel channel. Some folks us a dollar bill as a clearance gage. I prefer to use 3X5 card doubled and have barrel clean channel by at least 1/16".

Proper bedding is a definite help along with pillar bedding. You can google pillar bedding for an excellent "how to" with pics do it. I have used Marinetex, Devcon Steel filled epoxy, and Accraglass.

All the other things the other guys have said will also do it.

But there are more. Assuming it is a factory gun all the way I will bet both your locking lugs are not contacting the receiver equally. Pull bolt and look at back of lugs. Should be shiney and equally contacting.

There are a lot of problems "un refined" bolt guns have. Look on Midway for Guide to Precision Rifle Barrel Fitting by Hinnant. That will give you lots of hints of where the trouble may be. While the book addresses Remington actions primarily all of this is possible with others.

Don't think you have to worry about too strong a striker spring. 99.999% of the time the spring has taken a set and become weaker.

Look up Wolfe spring and find the area covering your rifle and get a new spring at least one energy level up from factory. Many High power shooters change springs every season.

It takes some very exotic tooling to measure striker energy and 99.999% of shooters don't have a clue or the equipment in how to measure it. Note: looking at striker indents on fired cases is worthless. Well actually there is one sign you can look for which is the striker indent is not completely deep and gives the appearance that the primer has pushed the striker back on firing and is trying to climb in the bolt face. Way before that happens you will get eratic ignition though. Looking at indents on primers from rounds that did not fire is also worthless.
I just had to replace a striker spring that had taken a set and become weak. I have the tooling to measure striker energy in 223, 308 and 30.06 and the spring had become weak.
When you get the springs from Wolff (get half a dozen) measure the free length before installing. Start of every season pull bolt down, take it apart and measure the spring free length again. If it has shortened 1/4" or more replace it.

Get a copy of the NRA Gunsmith's Guide for lots of good info.

Bottom line for best performance you need to be able to work on your own equipment and do it right. Just because some guy says he is a gunsmith doesn't necessarily mean he knows what he is doing.

Go to the local Tech school and take a machine shop course at night and learn the lathe and mill operation. You can pick up a good lathe for the price of a good rifle and make what you have better than a new one.

Get good quality reamers and headspace gages for the chambers. If you are careful you won't need a rougher and a finisher should hold up for at least 25 barrel jobs and they can be resharpened.

A lathe is a nice piece of equipment that will pay for itself quickly in the money you save. It is utterly amazing how having a lathe and mill can make life simpler. For instance I needed to put a wide angle mirror on my pickup passenger side for pulling camper trailer. Went to a truck parts specialty store for big trucks and they had no way to mount a mirror on the pull out arms of pickups that were bigger than the standard west coast mirror tubing which is 5/8" to 3/4". Drilling one hole and turning an extension I now have the mirror firmly mounted that gives me a much wider field of view on passenger side. If it had not been for the lathe, I could not have done it. There is a old saying, "a man is no better than his tools" which I find to be quite true.
 
Re: Why is this happening?

"..open up your own barrel channel. Some folks us a dollar bill as a clearance gage. I prefer to use 3X5 card doubled and have barrel clean channel by at least 1/16"."

Valid point. The oft repeated adage to pass a dollar bill down the barrel channel as a check for "free floating" is a myth. That only means there is at least a gap of .003", not nearly enough to prevent stock flex from closing such a tiny gap simply by changing the forehand grip!

I think it can be demonstrated that such a small - and therefore erratic - gap is worse than no stock gap at all. Either cut the gap large enough to prevent accidental barrel contact or let the contact remain fixed and hard.

I love the speed of Gunline's Barrel Inletting tools but the barrel channel can also be enlarged for "free" with coarse sand papers wrapped around various sized short wood dowels. (Seal the raw wood completely with several thin coats of a good grade of polyurethane afterwards to reduce moisture absorbtion and warping; Minwax Marine poly from Walmart works fine.)
 
Re: Why is this happening?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some folks us a dollar bill as a clearance gage. I prefer to use 3X5 card doubled and have barrel clean channel by at least 1/16".</div></div>

This is done all the way to the receiver, right?
 
Re: Why is this happening?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seekers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is done all the way to the receiver, right? </div></div>

Most times yes, unless it's bedded, then sometimes the first inch or so of the barrel will be bedded as well.