Of all things on a precision rifle, people are most fickle and fanboish over optics.
I've learned to take most optics reviews with a heavy grain of salt.
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Rifle Scopes Why isnt minox more popular?
- Thread starter A.Bennett
- Start date
Of all things on a precision rifle, people are most fickle and fanboish over optics.
I've learned to take most optics reviews with a heavy grain of salt.
@jbailey I was a Premier guy before I switched. The best scope I ever had was a Premier Optronika. When I learned about Minox/Optronika and Dan B let me play with his at a match, I signed up.
I sent a ZP5 back to Minox/Blaser this summer. It really didn't need much work, but I wanted to test their warranty and customer service. The CS at Minox/Blaser was good, the scope was worked on and returned back to me in 8 weeks. I think that is reasonable for a scope to travel to Texas, then Germany, be worked on, inspected, returned to the US, go through customs to Texas and finally sent to my house. Conversely, my last Vortex warranty lasted one month and may not be resolved. Maybe I got lucky (Minox) and unlucky (Vortex). Take this as just my experience, others may have had different experiences.
I sent a ZP5 back to Minox/Blaser this summer. It really didn't need much work, but I wanted to test their warranty and customer service. The CS at Minox/Blaser was good, the scope was worked on and returned back to me in 8 weeks. I think that is reasonable for a scope to travel to Texas, then Germany, be worked on, inspected, returned to the US, go through customs to Texas and finally sent to my house. Conversely, my last Vortex warranty lasted one month and may not be resolved. Maybe I got lucky (Minox) and unlucky (Vortex). Take this as just my experience, others may have had different experiences.
That is sound advice. We all have our bias' and none of us have all knowledge about all things so we are prone to err from time to time. One thing I have found over the years that I also think has an effect on ones opinion of a brand or particular model is sample variance. I simply don't have the money to buy multiple copies of a particular scope to review and alleviate some of the sample variance issues. I enjoy reading the reviews from lensrentals.com because they will often take 10 samples of lenses from their stock and average out while identifying the outliers among the group. For me to buy 10 copies of a ZCO ZC527 would not be very feasible so my reviews are typically based on a sample of one and I rely on the Hide community to fill in the gaps on some of the items that testing one sample simply cannot provide. For me personally, there are a number of factors I look for and the Minox ZP5 checks off the majority of those items (moreso than any other scope). IMO the only other scope that comes close is the ZCO but the ZCO also doesn't check off some boxes that the Minox does, and since the Minox can be had for half the price of the ZCO right now, I am content to stick with the ZP5. Once the ZP5's go back up in price, I think it would be a harder choice with the ZCO only a few hundred more.
Factors that matter to me (and these are going to be different for every shooter):
- Turrets (does the optic track reliably and repeatably, am I able to dial to random numbers quickly and accurately)
- Reliability (with newer scopes, this is more difficult to ascertain)
- Optical Quality (resolution, contrast, color, CA - lack of it)
- Low Light (does the optical formula allow for a bright sight picture with good color and low distortion at low light levels)
- DOF/Parallax (does the optical formula allow for "set it and forget it" so you don't have to keep tweaking beyond about 300yds)
- FOV (does the scope offer a wide FOV throughout the magnification range)
- Eyebox (is the eyebox forgiving and allows for a good sight picture without being perfectly centered)
- Reticle (I prefer a good Christmas Tree with dots that does not clutter the sight picture)
- Ergonomics (are the turrets/magnification/diopter/illumination easy to set and in a good location that does not hinder other functions)
- Length (I prefer scopes that are a bit shorter than the norm, but not too short as to cause optical limitations such as low DOF, distortion, etc.)
- Weight (I prefer scopes south of 35oz for the majority of my rigs as they serve dual purpose)
- Illumination (does the scope allow for daylight bright illumination without bleed)
- Cost (is the scope within reason for the rest of the class with which it is competing)
- Warranty (is the scope serviceable in the USA, does the company have good CS and turn around)
- Tube size (I prefer common tube sizes like 34mm and 30mm because sometimes I switch my mounts/rings around between other scopes)
Thank you all for the replies today. As I'm not well off I do a lot of research before purchasing most everything. I do take the opinions of other with a grain of salt and realize there is a lot of fan boy involved. However, I also know I do not have funds to purchase multiple "alpha/tier 1" scopes, so I do rely on others who have had used them to help with my decision.
I’ll believe it when I see it... the grapevine I heard from said this deal is more about clearing out Mauser rifles than it is about Minox scopes, sometimes the rumor mill gets stirred up when mfr’s offer deals and discounts, see it all the time in the camera forums - “Nikon has a new rebate, they must be coming out with something new” and 9 times out of 10, they aren’t, just offering an incentive on a product they’ve recouped costs on. That being said, I’d love to see a new design from GSO, if in fact the new scope would be designed by GSO. Even if Minox introduces something new I don’t see the resale market falling much lower than current rates for the ZP5 ‘s. New scope might be better but will undoubtedly sell for more than retail of existing ZP5. You say you sold your ZP5 5-25 for $2100, that’s the lowest I’ve seen one go for even with the 50% off deal going on, and I understand the urgency when you feel a current model might be replaced but I think you were a bit premature on this one. However, you will not be sad about the ZCO, they are truly amazing!I have heard through the grape vine that there is a new minox coming for 2020. Don’t have details but that’s the rumor. I just dumped my zp5 for $2100 just so I didn’t lose money later. Ended up buying a zc420 to try from Richard @ cstactical. Think it might work double duty on prs rig and gas gun if I run a riser rail and swap the whole scope and rings at once. ??We will see if it works.
The latest designs from GSO are Blaser Infinity scopes and they are really excellent.
Minox does have some new stuff coming out, but I do not think you need to be worries about ZP5 bring superceded just yet.
Current deal is more about getting some Mauser rifles out there than anything else. They are buying some market share
Personally, I will probably do another ZP5 test toward the end of the year since I am curious about their new THLR reticle.
ILya
Thanks for this update on GSO.
I checked out the Blaser Infinity scope line you cited and was impressed by these hunting scopes. They look beautiful and I'm sure that 58mm objective lens model offers outstanding optical resolutions, especially in low light conditions. Anyone interested, check out:
Blaser Optics – Riflescopes B1
Discover the Blaser binoculars. Developed for hunting – featuring high transmission, neutral color reproduction and innovative SLP coating. Made in Germany.
www.blaser.de
Blaser B1 4-20x58 iC
Blaser 4-20x58 iC. The twilight specialist – superior for sitting game and when hunting in the very last light.
www.blaser.de
I have had interactions with a few people on other online forums that involved them saying zp5s are not impressive and are equivalent to any other 1500 optic you purchase.
When pressed none had even been in the room with a Minox product and all had “read it on snipershide once”
The internet is the worst
Thanks for this update on GSO.
I checked out the Blaser Infinity scope line you cited and was impressed by these hunting scopes. They look beautiful and I'm sure that 58mm objective lens model offers outstanding optical resolutions, especially in low light conditions. Anyone interested, check out:
Blaser Optics – Riflescopes B1
Discover the Blaser binoculars. Developed for hunting – featuring high transmission, neutral color reproduction and innovative SLP coating. Made in Germany.Blaser B1 4-20x58 iC
Blaser 4-20x58 iC. The twilight specialist – superior for sitting game and when hunting in the very last light.
I tested their 1-7x28 and optomechanically it is the best LPVO I have seen to date with an extremely impressive illumination scheme.
ILya
That's right, I remember you and Big Jim talking about the new Blaser being a GSO design at SHOT; however, SFP scopes have very little interest for me so they tend to go through one ear and out the other.
I have seen their THLR and find it very interesting, would love to learn more about the technology behind that reticle so will keep an eye out for that.
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The ZC420 is the best Ultra Short scope out, there is just nothing that competes with it as a total package. As much as I love the ZP5 5-25x56 for a long range scope as a total package, I love the ZCO 4-20x50 as a total package for an ultra short, in fact, I think the ZC420 presents a better value than the ZC527 mostly because the ZP5 5-25 executes very closely to the ZC527 (as well as Nightforce, Schmidt and others), but the 4-20 stands above the competition (see my review - https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...i-v-schmidt-ultra-shorts-v-minox-zp5.6953016/ )
Maybe my definition of "fanboy" is different. To me, the term fanboy refers to someone who refuses to see anything wrong with a certain product. I've said all along I think the reason people knock the Minox turret feel is because of the spacing and that I really wish Minox had gone with 10 or 12 mil per turn, which I think would really help the feel of the turrets. There are other things I wish Minox had done, but overall it's a fantastic scope. When someone says their turrets don't line up, I have to ask, "Did you line them up properly and they still float?" My brand new NF ATACR 7-35 turrets didn't "line up". I took them off, lined them up, and tightened the set screws. If my Minox don't line up, I take the turrets, line them up properly, and tighten them down. I keep a small magnifying glass in my range bag for examining brass during load dev. I've been known to use that magnifying glass to ensure the turret mark lines up perfectly with the witness mark on the scope body
It's an interesting reticle. 0.2 holds for wind and elevation, but only to 1.5 mils for elevation before your target is likely concealed. Looks like you have the equivalent of a BDC, but for horizontally leading a mover. The downside is it's in meters per second, so you'll have to multiply by 2.23 to convert to MPH. Of course, it's probably calibrated to a certain round at a certain velocity because it's somewhat close for a Hornady 140 ELDM flying at 2830 fps, but it would be a complete miss for a 175 SMK at 2650 fps. And obviously if it's only a SFP reticle, it'll only subtend at a certain magnification. It would probably work on minute of elk targets, but not for precision rifle work. Then again, I could be talking out my ass, which has happened before lol.
It's an interesting reticle. 0.2 holds for wind and elevation, but only to 1.5 mils for elevation before your target is likely concealed. Looks like you have the equivalent of a BDC, but for horizontally leading a mover. The downside is it's in meters per second, so you'll have to multiply by 2.23 to convert to MPH. Of course, it's probably calibrated to a certain round at a certain velocity because it's somewhat close for a Hornady 140 ELDM flying at 2830 fps, but it would be a complete miss for a 175 SMK at 2650 fps. And obviously if it's only a SFP reticle, it'll only subtend at a certain magnification. It would probably work on minute of elk targets, but not for precision rifle work. Then again, I could be talking out my ass, which has happened before lol.
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^^^ I agree with your definition of fanboy Zach, someone who is a brand loyalist and refuses to see that competition could be just as good or God forbid... better. But with the understanding that most of it falls within "the eye of the beholder" to the fanboy there is nothing better. I used to see this so much when I was a professional photographer some years ago, I shot Canon for years and then switched to Nikon around 2007. For me personally and the way I shoot photography, Nikon suited me better and I had about 30% more keeper shots than I did with Canon. Did that mean Canon was bad and couldn't be used professionally, not at all, but for my personal style of shooting the features of the Nikon helped me get more keepers which meant more sales; for other photographers the Canon might yield better returns, but both systems are certainly capable once you know their limitations.
I agree and also they are also biased about other brands other than what they own, as well as looking for a reason not to like or nitpicking other brands they do not have.
Blaser scopes are FFP and have excellent low profile turrets as I recall.
They would make a killing if they offered some additional reticles.
Ilya
Well slap me in the face with a herring, you're right
they are FFP, I guess I looked at them briefly and saw the tiny little turrets and immediately thought "usual SFP hunting stuff" and moved on (yes, I do have my bias'). That Infinity 4-20x58ic would blend my two favorite scopes together into one - the ZP5 5-25x56 and the ZCO 4-20x50; however, like you mentioned they would need a decent .2 mil hash reticle to pique my interest, but it looks like they only have a single turn turret that only goes to 8 mils. But if GSO could offer the same design (4-20x58) to Minox for their ZP5 line with their turrets and MR4 reticle... OMG!!! While I love the ZCO and other Ultra Short designs they are all limited to 50/52mm and I'd prefer something that could draw in a wee bit more light for low light shooting. At 14.37" long it is not an ultra short, but given its 58mm objective it is well within reason. I want it... Minox sign me up... oh wait, it's the scope that doesn't exist You should really use your clout and offer your advice! Like WJM said, throw the MR4 in that shorty, get it to 12 mils, and I'd be all over one!
The reticle was designed by a guy in Norway (hence M/S not MPH) for use as hybrid precision/hunting reticle, hence the name THLR hybrid.
Most of the reticle doesn't make sense for a PRS scope, but as a hunting or quick acquisition type reticle it beings to make sense.
Heres a link that you can find a bit more info, theres a YouTube link on page 3. Excuse all the other BS.
The THLR Concept reticle is official
Here it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzaIjDnn8xA
www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz
I wonder if the "TH" in THLR is for Thomas Haugland? I've seen his video's with the ZP5 and a custom reticle...
I think that's a fair assumption too make, Thomas is the guy who made the reticle.
Well slap me in the face with a herring, you're right
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To be clear: I would take this scope entirely as is in terms of turrets and all if they simply had a reasonable mrad tree reticle. Blaser scopes are exceedingly well polished and 8 mrad single turn turret is perfectly acceptable for my purposes when combined with a good reticle. I routinely dial for distance and use the reticle to correct from that. With 8 mrad turn and 12 mrad tree, I'd be set for just about anything I may want to do. I really like their low profile locking turret. The windage is on the left and illumination is on the right. It was weirdly comfortable to adjust the illumination with my left hand, reaching over the scope. Compact elevation turret is what made it comfortable.
ILya
Here is my take.
I went in this order on purchasing scopes, over the last 10 years. I went in this order due to money and trying things out.
weaver tactical
Vortet pst 2 viper
Leupold Mark 6
Schmidt and Bender MLR reticle
Nightforce ATACR mil c
Dropped down to the Razors 2 to help facilitate a thermal purchase.
Minox ZP5 MR4
That being said, I purchase three scopes at a time, so that all my rigs would run the same. Other than the turrets being slightly and I mean slightly better on the Nightforce, the ZP5 line is the best that I have ever been behind. In fact, I went out and bought the spotter.
What I have learned is that I keep jumping to the next best thing. I have chosen not to worry about them bringing out a new scope. I am not changing from these scopes out anymore. They are a steal for the price point you can get them at. They track perfect and the glass is awesome.
I went in this order on purchasing scopes, over the last 10 years. I went in this order due to money and trying things out.
weaver tactical
Vortet pst 2 viper
Leupold Mark 6
Schmidt and Bender MLR reticle
Nightforce ATACR mil c
Dropped down to the Razors 2 to help facilitate a thermal purchase.
Minox ZP5 MR4
That being said, I purchase three scopes at a time, so that all my rigs would run the same. Other than the turrets being slightly and I mean slightly better on the Nightforce, the ZP5 line is the best that I have ever been behind. In fact, I went out and bought the spotter.
What I have learned is that I keep jumping to the next best thing. I have chosen not to worry about them bringing out a new scope. I am not changing from these scopes out anymore. They are a steal for the price point you can get them at. They track perfect and the glass is awesome.
I'am so sick of hearing, I got rid of my gen ii razor for dot dot dot this new scope is so much lighter, by the way i just put steel inserts into the stock to way it down and give it three more lbs.?
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