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Range Report Why isn't there more 6mm 115 grain ammunition?

HerveyHervey

Private
Minuteman
Jan 14, 2020
18
2
East Texas
Noob question here. This has been baffling me for a while. A 6 CM with 115 RDF can outperform a 6.5 CM with 140 RDF in it's trajectory and barley beat it out on wind drift. The only options for ammunition that I can find for a 6 CM are Prime and Nosler, and the only bullets I can find are DTAC, Nosler, and Berger.
  • Why aren't there more ammunition and bullet options there that feature 115 grain bullets?
  • Are there more options for 115 grain 6 CM ammunition that I can't find?
  • Is there something I am not considering in my calculations?
  • Am I overthinking this?
The calculations below were done using Hornady's ballistic calculator, and the velocity values were obtained using Nosler load data using H4350.

6 CM 115 RDF.PNG

6.5 CM 140 RDF.PNG
 
Anything above the 105/108 gr bullet class just about requires a faster twist than 1-8, and I'm not sure how many rifle manufacturers are making a 6mm with anything faster than a 1-8? Many people wanting to shoot the new heavier bullets are using custom rifles, and often with 1-7.5 twist.
The ammo companies want to market to the masses, or maximize their profit margins based on larger sales, instead of a nich market.
 
Like anything there is a 'Law of Diminishing Returns'. Faster and heavier isn't always the best answer. Most of the competition shooters using 6mm's, I've seen or read about, prefer the 105 to 108 grain pills for long range.

According to this if you go to a 105 RDF you get a 7% improvement in trajectory and a 5% increase in wind drift, so which is better 7% better trajectory or 5% better wind drift?
 

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According to this if you go to a 105 RDF you get a 7% improvement in trajectory and a 5% increase in wind drift, so which is better 7% better trajectory or 5% better wind drift?
If I know the ranges I want less wind drift, if distances are unknown I’d lean towards trajectory.
 
I'm sure someone will flame this out, but, I'll throw out the common responses.

As pointed out, gun companies tend to market to the masses. Average guy isn't going to shoot out past 300 yards, recreationally or for hunting. Though the long range sports are exploding, finding a range beyond 200 and in most cases past 100 is kind of rare air, unless you have private property to shoot on. so what's the point?

Most hunting kills are probably less than 100 if not 50 yards, so again what's the benefit? Finding 6mm creed anything locally is a crapshoot in a lot of cases and these days even finding it on the Internet is not that easy. Your average Fudd isn't going to go for that new fangled cartridge because my 270 will kill anything on the planet out 2000 yards cause it shoots 1/4 MOA groups. If it isn't that argument then it's I don't hunt deer with anything less than a 50 BMG because they are dead right there.

From a competition standpoint, most guys shooting a 6mm will probably be a wildcat and they reload or have someone reload for them. Overall, that's not a lot of shooters in relative terms. Their investment in that caliber choice is already made, so why change what works for them.

Look outside of PRS type comps and and most Benchrest guys are shooting 6mm and they don't need the 115's. Again very small sample of overall shooter population. They don't want the 115 or 105s due to more recoil and they are all about the flat based bullets because they perform better at their 100 & 200 yard distances in theory. They never really see the benefit of a boat tail at 200 yards. As far as calibers, they are all about the BR or PPCs because it 's less powder / less cost. The 600, 1000 BR & F class may slightly change the stats, but, again relatively small pool of guns and they tend to lean on the 6.5, 7mm or 7.62 cals instead.

Next, 6mm creed has only been around since 2009, and gun industry all raved / propaganda'd the crap out of how great 6.5 was and it got all the glory as the latest greatest hottest cartridge. Now it's the 6.5 PRC or this or that. So unless you are chasing the latest greatest the propensity to move to a relatively unknown caliber is low.

Another against it argument is 6mm creed is overbore and burns barrels as faster. Then there's the why get a creed when I have a 243. Even if you go with the 243s, a considerable amount of those only shoot 50-90 grainers well due to twist rate. So no demand for the bullets. Yes some newer guns can handle them but there's not a lot of 243s with high twist rates flying off the shelves.

Availability of 6 creed at your local store probably leaves something lacking as well.

From the hunting side, yes it works, depending on game being hunted, with the right shot placement. However, a lot of guys are going to stick with heavier calibers because that's Fudded into their head. In some cases, it's just smarter and more ethical to shoot a different caliber as well.

There's been ton of change in the last 10-15 years from a technology standpoint. However, there's always a better something. Several wildcats with similar ballistics and maybe some commercial rounds as well have been around for years. I've heard Frank talk about the "if it's 10% better" on his podcast, and problem is I don't think this checks the box as a drastic improvement over what's available. I also think it was a market capture attempt by Hornady, but was was slightly more successful than the 30TC.

There's always trade offs, you just have to decided what you're willing to live with to meet your shooting goals. First rule is don't believe the hype until you gather the data yourself and prove it. Even then make sure you're being fair when you make your comparison and regurgitating some paradigm.
 
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hunters outnumber prs competitors/long range shooters 100-1
rounds fired from competitors/shooters outnumber hunters 1000-1

conservation should appreciate how much we shoot

another thing. hornady and lapua make 6creed brass but only 108/109
DTAC ammo from tubb is expensive
no one shoots factory nosler ammo in competitions

it will be a prime/peterson that brings 115 loaded 6.5 creed but its only worthwhile if its fast like the unknown munitions stuff

Berger 105 hybrid loaded ammo shooting 2950. disappointment in my book. no reason for the extra powder.
compare this to the 140 hybrids at 2820. that's where it should be

and yeah benchrest isn't looking at factory at all. such a small sport
 
Slight Theoretical benefits vs little or no measurable benefits (given shooter ability) inside 1,000 yds and practical drawbacks of cost and volume and demand.

Same issue on another thread this morning 300 WM vs 300PRC. Etc.
 
Their are good reason for DTAC ammo to be expensive. FYI -SSS does offer 1000 rds / 10% discount.
Each charge is individually weighed to a kernel of powder (.030 gr).
Each 115 DTAC comes with a NOSERING application/ and the powder has been Tubbdust(ed).

IMO there is no comparison between a 6.5 CM and 6XC. If there was then I would have picked the 6.5XC which was one of the cartridges I tested back before the 6.5 CM's existence.
If you have a TUBBGUN (30" barrel) reloading using the 6XC Peterson or Norma brass with the 115 DTAC's going 3250 fps... However the real GEM is that a 6XC will shoot excellent groups at any velocity range 2800- 3250 fps. So pick your speed ( if your rifle can support it).
A 115 DTAC at 3250fps makes a 6.5CM look like an anemic stepchild.
 
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Slight Theoretical benefits vs little or no measurable benefits (given shooter ability) inside 1,000 yds and practical drawbacks of cost and volume and demand.

Same issue on another thread this morning 300 WM vs 300PRC. Etc.

I think I've been overthinking this whole thing, at 1000 yards you only get a 2" advantage in wind drift (5 MPH crosswind) with 115 vs 105. I doubt my or many others shooting skills will be able to exploit this, which is probably why we haven't seen a huge following from the ammo manufactures.
 
Sorry I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about the 115 and the 105. If you compare 115 vs 140 at those speeds the 6 CM has a 9% improvement in trajectory and a 4% improvement in wind drift over the 6.5 CM, which is still so close I won't be able to shoot the difference.
 

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Their are good reason for DTAC ammo to be expensive. FYI -SSS does offer 1000 rds / 10% discount.
Each charge is individually weighed to a kernel of powder (.030 gr).
Each 115 DTAC comes with a NOSERING application/ and the powder has been Tubbdust(ed).

IMO there is no comparison between a 6.5 CM and 6XC. If there was then I would have picked the 6.5XC which was one of the cartridges I tested back before the 6.5 CM's existence.
If you have a TUBBGUN (30" barrel) reloading using the 6XC Peterson or Norma brass with the 115 DTAC's going 3250 fps... However the real GEM is that a 6XC will shoot excellent groups at any velocity range 2800- 3250 fps. So pick your speed ( if your rifle can support it).
A 115 DTAC at 3250fps makes a 6.5CM look like an anemic stepchild.

As a long time FagMag shooter, I think the real advantage the 6XC has brought to the table is I can shoot more of it for the same money with less recoil and give little up to wind. You've made it impossible to ignore as a 500ct box Iof bullets and Peterson brass is 10%-40% less respectively than shooting 6.5x284, 284Win, etc.

Whether or not I like the XC more than my Norma Dashers with 105s remains to be seen but the impact of your components prices makes it too appealing to ignore, especially if that .62 G1 BC pans out for me. All the southeast Highpower guys I shoot with run the 115 DTACs at 3000-3050 with H4350. Seems to be the most consistant day in and out, though it can certainly be turned up.

As to the availability and buying loaded ammo,, who buys loaded ammo?

Kubic say hey...


Chris
 
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