I have yet to see any posts, reviews, or pics of the new FLAG tubes anywhere on the net. I realize its $1000 more than Gen 3 but I don't think that should matter if you are looking for the best. I see that it's filmless and still autogated which I would imagine has a bright, beautiful picture. I see that Armasight is the only one offering it now. Maybe ITT limits its sales to them only and that is why it's not being discussed here. Anyone have any info on these new tubes?
Night Vision Why no IIT Generation FLAG discussion?
- Thread starter mikeltee
- Start date
No it's the latest. I'm concerned that its filmless. I can't find any specs to verify what kind of recoil it can handle. The reason that releases thus far haven't gone filmless is for the ability to handle stress. I guess I could always call, but id rather hear it from this group. It's pretty obvious no one here has any experience with the FLAG platform.
I own a couple of L3 tubes but never seen a ITT gen 3 filmless tubes yet myself. The l3 filmless tubes are very nice image wise I really like their performance.
First off don't be confused by the term "IIT." That is an abreviation for Image Intensifier Tube, not to be confused with the Image Intensifier manufacturer ITT Excelis of Roanoke Virgina. The habit of calling it an "IIT" is a hold over from ATN days. You see the people that started Armasight used to be ATN. Now in the header they are calling it an "ITT" PVS 14 but I think that is a typo because only one company makes a filmless module. That is L3 ETO based in Tempe Arizona.
Your concerned that Flimless tubes can not handle Stress, as in Recoil on a Weapons platform? May I ask why you believe that Filmless tubes can not handle Shock?
You are Correct sir! ITT does not make a Filmless tube.
Your concerned that Flimless tubes can not handle Stress, as in Recoil on a Weapons platform? May I ask why you believe that Filmless tubes can not handle Shock?
You are Correct sir! ITT does not make a Filmless tube.
While researching NV devices going from Gen 2- Gen 3, I read that the companies attempted to get a better picture by removing the film, but it would no longer meet the mil spec for recoil, so what the companies did was make it thinner.
So are you aware of this new generation FLAG? Is it proprietary to Armasight only? Will it be Gen 4 someday?
This is the device in question
https://www.armasight.com/night-vision/night-vision-monoculars/armasight-nyx-14-pro-flag/
And this is the spec which leads me to believe its the best on the market
Resolution 62-72 lp/mm
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If I'm not mistaken the L3 film less tube will handle more recoil than any of the ITT filmed tubes. I could very well be wrong but I swear I saw that somewhere.
EDIT: this is why I was thinking that.
Wasp clip on recoil ratings
ITT Tube: Up to/Including .308 (7.62x51mm NATO)
L-3 Tube: Up to/Including .50 BMG
It doesn't say anything about film less, I guess that part was made up in my head. That may be the film less L3 tho I'm not sure.
EDIT: this is why I was thinking that.
Wasp clip on recoil ratings
ITT Tube: Up to/Including .308 (7.62x51mm NATO)
L-3 Tube: Up to/Including .50 BMG
It doesn't say anything about film less, I guess that part was made up in my head. That may be the film less L3 tho I'm not sure.
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The term Flag is a marketing name applied by Aramasight to an existing tube they are selling.
Where did you read that Filmless tubes failed military recoil testing?
I am going to dispel an Internet myth, Filmless tubes are the strongest on the market today! Everyone who says otherwise is incorrect. This information has gotten into the collective conciseness of the Internet Night Vision forum reader, and it has been put there by people not selling Flimless tubes and everyone believes it, cause they read it on the Internet. Many MANY Flimless tubes wound up in the Marine Corps PVS 17 program and are still going strong today.
The generation designation is given out by the US Army's Night Vision Lab. The term Generation 4 is a designation that the US Army applied to Filmless technology when it was submitted. Now the first tubes failed longevity tests not recoil tests. The (at the time) Litton Gumman EOS continued the research and solved the problem and current production Flimless tubes easily make the 10,000 hour life requirement.
As for the spec of 62 (should be 64) - 72 lp/mm being the best on the market, both ITT and L3 tubes of all varieties meet at least 64 LPM and there are plenty of 72 LPM tubes avalible today. I have at least two pairs of matched 72 line hand select tubes in stock at the moment.
If your looking for the best avalible tube today, our RC (Recoil Compensating) tubes are it. They are Filmless and stand up to 308 recoil. They see into dark environments better than anything else and handle much higher light levels as well.
I know your thinking "this guy is just trying to sell me his product" so if you want to hear about how incredible our RC tube is, contact the owner of Machine Gun Tours, and ask him to tell you about last years Crimson Trace Night Three gun match and ask him about getting to look through my prototype PVS-14RC the last night, during the thunder storm when all of our ITT stuff couldn't see hardly anything.
Image intensifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Says it right there, that "the tubes suffered greatly from fragility during testing and by 2002, the NVESD revoked the fourth generation designation for filmless tubes, at which time they simply became known as Gen III Filmless. These tubes are still produced for specialist uses such as aviation and special operations however are not used for weapon-mounted purposes."
If you know anything about NV dealers, they all have the BEST. I had one dealer on here tell me (they) had better shit than the next guy, next guy said the exact same thing, so somebody was bullshitting me. When I told them I was only interested in OMNI 7 hand select 14's manufactured in either ITT or L3's cleanroom, they STILL had the balls to tell me THEIRS was better than TNVC, who I ended up going with (least bullshit, answered most questions satisfactorily, called to make sure the model they were sending me was up to my expectations). They were also honest enough to say that there isn't a difference between an actual ITT model sold by dealer A, and the same model with similar specs from dealer B. They also sold that exact model for around $1000 less. When approached about the price, well, THAT model isn't "SF grade" and THEIRS is. And "did I really want less than that?"
If ITT and L3 aren't interested in making it, I'm not interested in buying it. That they failed over 20 years ago to pull it off (and I'm assuming they continue R&D on many levels) that concerns me. Also, ATN is the other maker, and I've had an ATN scope. It was such shit that I couldn't give it away --literally. I ended up throwing it in the trash after very little use. That they put their name on it at all says it all about their business plan.
I didn't know ATN and Armasight were the same, but that doesn't surprise me. Bobcat-special-etc.-etc. weapons, they use the same model. Once you sell total shit, you have to change your name. Newcon Optik is another company I wonder about. For civilian legal class 3 IR lasers, nobody seems to buy 'em, folks go for the class 1 stuff at similar prices.
Do your homework. Night vision has profits on par with heroin and gold apparently, so I don't believe much of what any dealer says. Especially after the shit I had to go through to find a good dealer for my most recent purchase, it took 2 weeks at least. I'm sure there are other good ones, but TNVC was just the most honest with me and what they said jived with what ITT said when I called them.
To use an analogy, when I have Joe Ford tell me their red F150 is better than Bill Ford's red F150, same model, same features, but worth $40,000 vs. $30,000, my bullshit deflection system automatically goes up. This post isn't directed at anyone or any company in particular, but the industry as a whole, so if anyone gets butt hurt, that says a lot there. And I'm familiar with these sales tactics. All dealers use 'em, ADT dealers will tell you the exact same shit about alarms, knowing good and well the only difference will be the actual installer that shows up to your door, similar with cars, similar with NV.
If you know anything about NV dealers, they all have the BEST. I had one dealer on here tell me (they) had better shit than the next guy, next guy said the exact same thing, so somebody was bullshitting me. When I told them I was only interested in OMNI 7 hand select 14's manufactured in either ITT or L3's cleanroom, they STILL had the balls to tell me THEIRS was better than TNVC, who I ended up going with (least bullshit, answered most questions satisfactorily, called to make sure the model they were sending me was up to my expectations). They were also honest enough to say that there isn't a difference between an actual ITT model sold by dealer A, and the same model with similar specs from dealer B. They also sold that exact model for around $1000 less. When approached about the price, well, THAT model isn't "SF grade" and THEIRS is. And "did I really want less than that?"
If ITT and L3 aren't interested in making it, I'm not interested in buying it. That they failed over 20 years ago to pull it off (and I'm assuming they continue R&D on many levels) that concerns me. Also, ATN is the other maker, and I've had an ATN scope. It was such shit that I couldn't give it away --literally. I ended up throwing it in the trash after very little use. That they put their name on it at all says it all about their business plan.
I didn't know ATN and Armasight were the same, but that doesn't surprise me. Bobcat-special-etc.-etc. weapons, they use the same model. Once you sell total shit, you have to change your name. Newcon Optik is another company I wonder about. For civilian legal class 3 IR lasers, nobody seems to buy 'em, folks go for the class 1 stuff at similar prices.
Do your homework. Night vision has profits on par with heroin and gold apparently, so I don't believe much of what any dealer says. Especially after the shit I had to go through to find a good dealer for my most recent purchase, it took 2 weeks at least. I'm sure there are other good ones, but TNVC was just the most honest with me and what they said jived with what ITT said when I called them.
To use an analogy, when I have Joe Ford tell me their red F150 is better than Bill Ford's red F150, same model, same features, but worth $40,000 vs. $30,000, my bullshit deflection system automatically goes up. This post isn't directed at anyone or any company in particular, but the industry as a whole, so if anyone gets butt hurt, that says a lot there. And I'm familiar with these sales tactics. All dealers use 'em, ADT dealers will tell you the exact same shit about alarms, knowing good and well the only difference will be the actual installer that shows up to your door, similar with cars, similar with NV.
My ears perked up when you said that Newcon Optik produces class 3a laser illuminators. They actually are more expensive than the PEQ-15. I couldn't find a review more current than '10, so I would imagine price has something to with it.
Sorry for the delayed response of thank you for the kind words and your purchase. I'm kinda just getting back into town after a few weeks out of town trip with limited access.
Most know we get beat up from the same crowd with sly remarks on-line and what you experienced over the phone. We know...
We here at TNVC are all educators and trainers first with each one of our techical staff having heavy SOF and LE backgrounds*that enable us to educate first instead of a "sell".
We also surround ourselves with and train with some other top NV trainers and carbine instructors out there such as LMS Defense, Telluric, Viking Tactics, EAG Tactical, Redback One, and Trident. We say this openly on who, what and where we train with. Our customers need to know this and not just a blurb on a web site saying we "train" with no background or said Iinstructors. We consult with agencies all over the country is why we now have offices Iin 4 different states and growing to better serve our clients.
This is who we are and always will be. We know we will continue to get beat up from others with the "best this or that" arena and get nasty emails from the owners of these said companies. We smile at the nonsense.
But seriously, we have lives at stake here and that ain't no sales pitch so we better have our ducks in a row when we talk to valuable customers such as you and not just "sell". It does not matter if you were LE, MIL or a varmint hunter, we educate all the same.
Thank you again for the kind words and purchase, enjoy the gear!
Vic
You should watch what you say here or be classed as a "minion" or that you work for us in some way....It's gotten out of hand around here, my in box is getting near capaciity. wow.
ITT is dropping their "ITT" moniker and from now on will be know only as Excelis.....
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20130802/BUSINESS/308020049/ITT-Exelis-name-change
Exelis 2nd-Quarter Net Falls 9.3% on Restructuring Charges - WSJ.com
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20130802/BUSINESS/308020049/ITT-Exelis-name-change
Exelis 2nd-Quarter Net Falls 9.3% on Restructuring Charges - WSJ.com
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