Rifle Scopes Why no love (it seems) for Leupold MK4 line

[idiot face]

...if this has been covered before, someone please feel free to post a link. I still have not figured out new search functions since this site has been re-configed.


Anyway, Moon at Crescent Customs almost has my rifle complete and I had long been of the mind to put a Leupold Mk 4 on it. Seems like not many are shooting these anymore.

Seems like I remember it having something to do with not having a mil-mil scope in the lineup? I dont know.

Thoughts

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I think there far better scopes in the price vortex and even nightforce

 

[bh-ltr]

Boy I've gotta agree that Vortex really has added a nice new alternative to Leupy. Same great warranty, <s>similar made in the USAness</s>, with a good bang/buck ratio.

~Brett

 

[MrSwede]

Leupold had a good grip on the market many years ago but failed to keep ut with market demands.
Other companies filled that void with new offerings and though Leupold is now releasing new and better optics that are more in line with what the market wants they are still many years to late and still playing catch-up.

 

[Hootsmon]

I helped a buddy mount a Mark 4 on his Steyr Scout. We set the rifle up level, using a spirit level on the rail. Set the scope in the mounts with the spirit level on the elevation turret -perfectly level. Checked the rifle again, still level. Everything level as can be. Looked through the scope at a cinder block wall about 50 yards away -rifle still level- and there was a noticeable cant to the reticle. I dunno how much it was out, 3 or 4 degrees I guess. It looked real obvious against a cinder block wall.

I was a bit disappointed with that.

 

[BobinNC]

The entire Leupold Mark 4 line features and utilizes the very best technology available in 2004.

 

[42769vette]

The entire Leupold Mark 4 line features and utilizes the very best technology available in 2004.

Great quote here.

The truth of the matter is Leupold was once the leader, but they rested on their larrels, and said "we are leupold folks will buy from us" Meanwhile alot of companies caught up, and passed them in terms of quality while keeping the cost to end user down. Leupold just kept raising their prices so folks would think they were still the best.

Now leupold is playing catch up, and have a long ways to go.

 

[Dustin C]

I have had good luck with the mark 4 , but I'd take a used NF over a new mark 4 any day the price is close and there's really no comparison

 

[leadbullet]

for the money, there are much better scopes and you don't have to pay for the "name" recognition like "colt" etc does.

 

[GUNNER10]

seriously, are you guys really saying that leupold is still playing catch up? and that manufactures like vortex and NF offer better products?

how many NF scopes have locking turrets, how many FFP models does NF have? available today? how about in 6 months. how many NF have 34mm or 35mm tubes? how many NF scopes have better glass than an HD super sniper? how many NF's can you actually adjust the illumination on the fly. how many NF's can you use horris in?

right now, leupolds line up pretty much smokes everything else thats available, be it glass quality, durability, or reliability short of the best Germany can produce

the mk4 mr/t and LR/T line of the late 90's is in no way comparable to todays mk4 ER/T, and MK 6 and Mk8 lines

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

Boy I've gotta agree that Vortex really has added a nice new alternative to Leupy. Same great warranty, similar made in the USAness, with a good bang/buck ratio.

~Brett

I don't know where people keep getting the idea that Vortex scopes are made in the USA. They may be designed here, but ALL that I have seen are made in Asia - China for the cheapest, Phillippines for the Viper lines (including HS and PST), and Japan for the Razor. Not aware of any that are made in the USA.

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

seriously, are you guys really saying that leupold is still playing catch up? and that manufactures like vortex and NF offer better products?

how many NF scopes have locking turrets, how many FFP models does NF have? available today? how about in 6 months. how many NF have 34mm or 35mm tubes? how many NF scopes have better glass than an HD super sniper? how many NF's can you actually adjust the illumination on the fly. how many NF's can you use horris in?

right now, leupolds line up pretty much smokes everything else thats available, be it glass quality, durability, or reliability short of the best Germany can produce

the mk4 mr/t and LR/T line of the late 90's is in no way comparable to todays mk4 ER/T, and MK 6 and Mk8 lines

The MK4 mr/t and lr/t make up a large part of their line, especially below $2000. I can't take them seriously as a value proposition when looking at what you get for the money, and having owned a LR/T and a Nightforce NXS along with various other scopes.

The MK4 er/t line seems like an odd duck with 34mm tubes and high prices but fairly basic features and 3x zoom ranges.

The MK6 and MK8 lines look very promising but at $2k and up they are competing against a lot of very well established world-class scopes. Maybe they are just as good, maybe even better than some, but it's a crowded field.

 

[Lowlight]

The new Leupold's are very good, the Mk 8 and Mk 6 lines are nice... if you are considering one look to the 3-18x, that is becoming a real winner.

They were sitting back for a lot of years but now have jumped forward and are producing some nice scopes. The old scopes are just that, a bit older, so you don;t see them mentioned as much. The Market changed and Leupold was a bit slow to adjust, but I feel their adjustments have been in a positive direction.

We have a lot of great options now, and that $1200 market is full of good scopes, but great scopes are all running $2k+ into the $4k range. Nothing wrong with spending less, you just have a lot of really good competition there.

 

[sjb269]

I do like the TMR reticle, and the MK4 glass is good, however, to say Leupolds line smokes everything else, that's a bold statement...Side by side my lowly SWFA HD glass is every bit as good as my MK4 and tracks as true as anything...with 10 mils per rev! All the glass at this price point probably comes from the same factory anyhow.
I'd say if it wasn't for the hunters out there, Leupold would have had a seat at the table right next to the Maglite corp.

 

[bh-ltr]

I don't know where people keep getting the idea that Vortex scopes are made in the USA. They may be designed here, but ALL that I have seen are made in Asia - China for the cheapest, Phillippines for the Viper lines (including HS and PST), and Japan for the Razor. Not aware of any that are made in the USA.

I'd heard that some of the stuff was assembled in Wisconsin with Japanese glass. Perhaps I'm wrong but its not going to suade me away from them if its not true.

 

[Rob01]

I don't know where people keep getting the idea that Vortex scopes are made in the USA. They may be designed here, but ALL that I have seen are made in Asia - China for the cheapest, Phillippines for the Viper lines (including HS and PST), and Japan for the Razor. Not aware of any that are made in the USA.

Who cares where they are made as long as they work? Scopes seem to be there place people always scream "I need Made in the USA!". Then they put it on their AI or TRG rifles and shoot Lapua brass and bullets from them.

 

[USACS]

There is no denying that the Mark6 and Mark8 lines are massive improvements in the Leupold catalog, and that they're serious contenders in the marketplace now. I am personally looking at several in those two product lines for an LMT LM8MWS (along with USO and S&B).
There is also a lot to be said about the VX-R Patrol line, as well as the HAMR.

The Mark4 was among the best on the market for a long time, but over the past 4+ years, they've lost a lot of ground and have not done much to improve that line. To be honest, at this point there is no need to since they have the Mark6 and Mark8 lines, and perhaps Leupold knows this, which is why they haven't done anything further since the 34mm 6.5-20x was developed. I think that 30mm FFP ER/T models fell flat with no illumination, no zero stop and 5mils per revolution. They were a positive step for that line, having been stagnant for so long, but in the end it was too little too late when you look at what else had come to the market at that time.

When our SWAT team got new weapons, I heard that our snipers were looking at ordering a couple more Mark4 LR/T 4.5-14x50 M1 models to replace the older LR/T 3.5-10x40 M1 models. They were very happy with Leupold at the time and were pretty set on new Leupolds. I got on the phone with Nightforce and got things rolling for a T&E model of the NXS 3.5-15x50 (SFP moa/MLR), and our snipers decided "what the hell-it's free!" One month later when it was time to send the scope back to Nightforce, it was accompanied by an order for a complete set of replacement scopes to replace all Leupold Mark4s. The price difference was negligible due to Leupold's unwillingness to deal with municipal/county/state law enforcement, and Nightforce's willingness to offer us agency pricing numbers below market/MAP. The difference came in functionality, options and overall optics.

At least for our context, the Mark4 line was simply outclassed fair and square. Our situation is unique to us, but once the other snipers saw what I already knew about Nightforce, it was a pretty easy sell to switch. This is not so much to bolster NF, but instead to explain why WE lost the love for the Mark4 line.

 

[sageebr24]

I had a NF NXS and a Leupold MK4 LRT both were comparable in power both had 50mm objective. So needless to say I had both side by side to compare optic quality. The NF was quite a bit more clear than the leupold. I actually got rid of both scope but am fixing to pull the trigger on getting a NF F1 as long as I can afford NF or other higher end scopes that don't really fit in on this discussion I will probably never own another Leupold.

 

[idiot face]

The entire Leupold Mark 4 line features and utilizes the very best technology available in 2004.

LOL...that is too funny.

 

[idiot face]

The new Leupold's are very good, the Mk 8 and Mk 6 lines are nice... if you are considering one look to the 3-18x, that is becoming a real winner.

They were sitting back for a lot of years but now have jumped forward and are producing some nice scopes. The old scopes are just that, a bit older, so you don;t see them mentioned as much. The Market changed and Leupold was a bit slow to adjust, but I feel their adjustments have been in a positive direction.

We have a lot of great options now, and that $1200 market is full of good scopes, but great scopes are all running $2k+ into the $4k range. Nothing wrong with spending less, you just have a lot of really good competition there.

Thats well said. Sadly though I do remember a time when 1200 would put you very close to the upper levels of the optic world. Also, I should add that the Mark 4 I had in mind to put on my rifle was the fixed 10x40 LR/T.

 

[idiot face]

Who cares where they are made as long as they work? Scopes seem to be there place people always scream "I need Made in the USA!". Then they put it on their AI or TRG rifles and shoot Lapua brass and bullets from them.

Good point, I have been guilty of this a time or three.

 

[KYS]

seriously, are you guys really saying that leupold is still playing catch up? and that manufactures like vortex and NF offer better products?

how many NF scopes have locking turrets, how many FFP models does NF have? available today? how about in 6 months. how many NF have 34mm or 35mm tubes? how many NF scopes have better glass than an HD super sniper? how many NF's can you actually adjust the illumination on the fly. how many NF's can you use horris in?

right now, leupolds line up pretty much smokes everything else thats available, be it glass quality, durability, or reliability short of the best Germany can produce

the mk4 mr/t and LR/T line of the late 90's is in no way comparable to todays mk4 ER/T, and MK 6 and Mk8 lines

I have never laughed so hard at work in my life!! Are you actually saying Leupold is better then the majority of the current market????

I tested a LT 34mm scope from them about 8 months ago, it was shit out of the box. Reticle was crooked and elevation turret couldn't hold a zero. There is a reason they aren't mentioned around here anymore, they are old news.
I would take an F1 Nightforce ANYDAY over a Leupold.

 

[bobaguilar]

10 years Leupold was King. Then came FFP and Mill/Mill and they got left behind. There new stuff has now evolved with the market and I'm sure it's very good. But now that we have tasted Schmidt and Bender and Premier it's hard to go back.

 

[hrfunk]

OP, a couple weeks back I started a thread titled "the truth about Leuplod. You might want to search for it, there were some pretty good points made there.

HRF

 

[Randoman5]

Which of these scopes would you want?

Leupold 67955 Mark 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50 Mil Dot Riflescope for sale! - EuroOptic.com

Bushnell Elite Tactical 3.5-21x50 Mil-Dot Scope ET35215M On Sale - EuroOptic.com

SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 Tactical 30mm Riflescope

SWFA SS 3-15x42 Tactical Rifle Scope

Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP Rifle Scope EBR-1 MRAD PST-416F1-M - EuroOptic.com

Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50 Rifle Scope EBR-3 RZR-52008 for sale! - EuroOptic.com

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The new Leupold's are very good, the Mk 8 and Mk 6 lines are nice... if you are considering one look to the 3-18x, that is becoming a real winner.

They were sitting back for a lot of years but now have jumped forward and are producing some nice scopes. The old scopes are just that, a bit older, so you don;t see them mentioned as much. The Market changed and Leupold was a bit slow to adjust, but I feel their adjustments have been in a positive direction.

We have a lot of great options now, and that $1200 market is full of good scopes, but great scopes are all running $2k+ into the $4k range. Nothing wrong with spending less, you just have a lot of really good competition there.

Frank, I've heard reports of the quality and reliability of the MK6 and MK8 lines being better than the MK4's. Can you attest to that? I've had problems with MK4, they've always provided great service and I appreciate that but my favorite part of customer service is not needing it.

I'm seriously considering a MK6 3-18 for a 223AI I just bought because of the compact size and light weight.

 

[Lowlight]

They definitely stepped up the game with those, and of all the 3-18x I have seen they appear to be really solid

 

[DOA]

That was an easy decision for me and went with the Bushnell.

Which of these scopes would you want?

Leupold 67955 Mark 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50 Mil Dot Riflescope for sale! - EuroOptic.com

Bushnell Elite Tactical 3.5-21x50 Mil-Dot Scope ET35215M On Sale - EuroOptic.com

SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 Tactical 30mm Riflescope

SWFA SS 3-15x42 Tactical Rifle Scope

Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP Rifle Scope EBR-1 MRAD PST-416F1-M - EuroOptic.com

Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50 Rifle Scope EBR-3 RZR-52008 for sale! - EuroOptic.com

 

[redneckbmxer24]

They definitely stepped up the game with those, and of all the 3-18x I have seen they appear to be really solid

I'm going to take your word for it and give it a go. There's nothing else with the same features at that weight on the market. It should definitely fill the roll on a light handy rifle well.

 

[BCP]

Leupie is fine I just think that scopes like the Vortex Razor HD, Bushnell HDMR are very hard to beat for the money.

leupolds line up pretty much smokes everything else thats available, be it glass quality, durability, or reliability short of the best Germany can produce

The 6 series are good but to say they 'smoke everything' because of locking turrets is kind of silly especially since others look at it and get pissed off that it doesn't have reticule illumination or something.

For example I recently got to see one of these in person and I liked it very much:

Leupold Mark 6 M5 Rifle Scope 34mm Tube 3-18x 44mm Zero Stop 1/10 Mil

But it just didn't feel like 2500 bucks in my hands for several reasons.

 

[The King]

I can echo these sentiments. The Leupold was epic back in the day. And if their Mark6 cost what the Mark4 did when it reigned supreme....it would be kicking some ass.

Translation: MK6 3-18x at $1000. Explosion of win.
MK6 3-18X at $2500? Also an explosion, but after being involved in said explosion I no longer have the brainpower left to figure out the words required to describe it. I
think I'm going to go eat some paste and watch Justin Beiber "perform" in an attempt to recover.

 

[sobrbiker883]

The entire Leupold Mark 4 line features and utilizes the very best technology available in 2004.

So very true.

Luepy shined on precision rifle shooters for ten years and is now trying to regain with WAY overpriced product....

 

[Advokaten]

The entire Leupold Mark 4 line features and utilizes the very best technology available in 2004.

1994 would be more like it, it if was not for the ilum bit. Have had three Mark 4 scopes none lasted in my possesion. /Chris

 

[idiot face]

OP, a couple weeks back I started a thread titled "the truth about Leuplod. You might want to search for it, there were some pretty good points made there.

HRF

Thanks HR I will do that.

 

[idiot face]

I can echo these sentiments. The Leupold was epic back in the day. And if their Mark6 cost what the Mark4 did when it reigned supreme....it would be kicking some ass.

Translation: MK6 3-18x at $1000. Explosion of win.
MK6 3-18X at $2500? Also an explosion, but after being involved in said explosion I no longer have the brainpower left to figure out the words required to describe it. I
think I'm going to go eat some paste and watch Justin Beiber "perform" in an attempt to recover.

Nothing like the healing power of the "beebs"

 

[mikeltee]

I'd heard that some of the stuff was assembled in Wisconsin with Japanese glass. Perhaps I'm wrong but its not going to suade me away from them if its not true.

Japanese glass is some of the best available. Ever heard of the little company named Nikon? There isn't any glass made in the US that is even in the same league. Japanese glass takes a close second to German glass IMHO. NF uses German if I'm not mistaken.

 

[CavCop]

I like Leupold Mk4's. Most of my scopes are Leupold (fixed 10x and 16x). Have a FFP Mil/Mil 3x10 Mil Dot that works just fine. Now I bought a Night Force because it was all the rage. Paid retail, scope is large, heavy, and 56mm Obj lense is way bigger than I like, even the 50MM I feel is large, and its made overseas. If I shot at night, the Night Force might be better, but Leupold for the money has what I like and what works. I use all Mk4 parts from the base to rings to scope on my 700's. I plan to get a Vortex in a few months (Viper HD I think right now).

But I started using Leupold in the late 80's and they are Made in the USA with good quality and durability.

 

[enigmamdw]

I helped a buddy mount a Mark 4 on his Steyr Scout. We set the rifle up level, using a spirit level on the rail. Set the scope in the mounts with the spirit level on the elevation turret -perfectly level. Checked the rifle again, still level. Everything level as can be. Looked through the scope at a cinder block wall about 50 yards away -rifle still level- and there was a noticeable cant to the reticle. I dunno how much it was out, 3 or 4 degrees I guess. It looked real obvious against a cinder block wall.

I was a bit disappointed with that.

How sure are you that the cinder block wall was perfectly square and not just level with the base ground area? (Fences and non-load bearing walls often are.)

 

[Advokaten]

It is known that most scope manufacturers QC will allow for some cant in the reticle, and yes Lupie has been known to allow cant to some degree, they say it is perfectly ok and that shots will still land were they are supposed.

Btw a cinder block wall that appears to be straight usually is, more than a few degrees out and it will show very well, besides the vertical lines on a block wall cannot be out by much at all, a part of how we build.

A good friend had a scope returned twice, once to the Swedish representative/dealer of Leupold for a canted reticle, and once to the US, neither time the representatives of leupold found/thought there to be something wrong with the scope. This however is not Leupie bashing, the same goes for most scopes, I have seen almost all brands but US optics and Hensoldt to have one or two scopes that are off, why no US optics and Hensoldts, well I think I have just not seen enough examples yet of those two brands or perhaps they are all perfectly straight, I do not know. /Chris

 

[jjrgr21]

it says right on the box of MK4's "assembled in the US, of foreign materials"

i have a MK4 4.5-14, glass is good, and tracks well. but at retail all leupolds are over priced, the mil/le price is what they are worth IMO.

i recently got a VX-R patrol 3-9, and honestly it was pathetic. the reticle looked like my 3 year old drew it. the profile was awesome, but at the same retail price as the SS 3-9, there is no comparison in the glass and over all build quality.

i'm sure the MK6/8 is bad ass, and it better be @$2500+. but if it were at $1500 then it would have to compete with the razor, and the SS 5-20, a much slimmer field.

 

[Black max]

Japanese glass is some of the best available. Ever heard of the little company named Nikon? There isn't any glass made in the US that is even in the same league. Japanese glass takes a close second to German glass IMHO. NF uses German if I'm not mistaken.

NF uses Japanese glass in their NXS line. Lets not forget about IOR which uses schott glass from Germany and is super clear!!! There finish isn't the best but they track perfectly, built like a tank, and it's some of the best glass I've looked through!!!

 

[dang472]

I just compared my grandfather's Mk4 M3 10x to my SFP 6-24 Vortex PST. I couldn't tell a difference and obviously the Vortex has a more versatile zoom range, Zero stop, Mil/Mil, and illumination. When we talked about the 2, I kept hearing how the Mk4 could carry out a SEAL mission underwater on the deck of the Titanic, used as a claw hammer, and still fight a war. It may all be true, but I'm pretty realistic about demands on equipment. The car ride to the range in a hard case to the range or bean field aren't exactly adverse conditions. The BDC caps on the M3 are off just enough to annoy and you are forced to adjust your MV to the cap, not the load best suited for your rifle. I still see Mk4 10xs going for 1K+ here and I just don't see it. For $300-400 less you can get a feature-loaded Vortex or for $500-600 more, a Nightforce NXS/Vortex Razor. If the current Mk4 fixed powers, the lower 3.5-10, and the 4.5-14 were in the $600-$700 range, they would be worth considering.

 

[Capt Academy]

I have several Mark 4's which work very well, but The NF NSX, I have three and now the ATACR really shine for me. The ATACR is much better in my book.

 

[Hootsmon]

How sure are you that the cinder block wall was perfectly square and not just level with the base ground area? (Fences and non-load bearing walls often are.)

Yeah, I thought of that. Tried sighting on a different building. Same deal.
It was a cinder block building on a poured concrete slab.

A canted reticle is no big deal on a hunting scope that will only be adjusted for sighting in. I don't think it's acceptable for a tactical scope, especially at the price point of a Mk 4.

 

[BCP]

I just compared my grandfather's Mk4 M3 10x

If it's an older Ultra or M3A model they are a different breed, the tube was thicker and the glass was made by Schott. My neighbor had 2-3 of them they are really nice scopes.

The newer Leupold Mk6 are almost in that same league as far as build quality and optics goes I just get sticker shock when I look at them especially since there are so many other options out there for less $$$.

 

[hunting1]

Not a Sniper, Pro, etc but love Leupolds! Vortex optics are blurry to me, but I do like their features and the clicks feel very crisp. Woud like to try an SWFA some day and have only handled some of the upper brands (Night Force, SB, Bushnell, etc.) in the stores.

 

[bluto77]

I grew up on Leupold, but once I got into long range shooting I noticed a big difference in what they offered and what else was available. My first "long range" scope was a leupold MK4 M1 LRT 8.5 - 25. It was better than anything I'd had before, but after looking through other people's scopes at the range, I quickly figured out mine was lacking. Learning about Mil/Mil FFP was the biggest eye opener, and really drove my change.

However, I'm looking for a hunting scope that will be carried around in the mountains of Wyoming. I'm going to be using a custom rifle from Scout Supply Company that will already be heavier than the Win M70 300 WM that I had planned to use, so I need to shed weight in the optics section. I want something more than a 3 - 12, but almost everything that's got more magnification than that starts approaching the 30 oz range. Or it doesn't have FFP (not overly necessary on hunting rig, but I want all my rifles to be consistent), or no zero stop, or if it does have those features it's well into the 30 oz range and well north of $2K. If i have to pay that, then at least the Leupold MK6 3-18 can be had in the 23-24 oz range.

Frank, have you tested the MK6 and/or MK8, or have you just seen them?

 

[BCP]

I grew up on Leupold, but once I got into long range shooting I noticed a big difference in what they offered and what else was available. My first "long range" scope was a leupold MK4 M1 LRT 8.5 - 25. It was better than anything I'd had before, but after looking through other people's scopes at the range, I quickly figured out mine was lacking. Learning about Mil/Mil FFP was the biggest eye opener, and really drove my change.

However, I'm looking for a hunting scope that will be carried around in the mountains of Wyoming. I'm going to be using a custom rifle from Scout Supply Company that will already be heavier than the Win M70 300 WM that I had planned to use, so I need to shed weight in the optics section. I want something more than a 3 - 12, but almost everything that's got more magnification than that starts approaching the 30 oz range. Or it doesn't have FFP (not overly necessary on hunting rig, but I want all my rifles to be consistent), or no zero stop, or if it does have those features it's well into the 30 oz range and well north of $2K. If i have to pay that, then at least the Leupold MK6 3-18 can be had in the 23-24 oz range.

Frank, have you tested the MK6 and/or MK8, or have you just seen them?

Premier light tactical hunter model?

 

[bluto77]

I'm not overly familiar with Premier Light Hunter/Tactical, but a quick search shows it weighs 24 oz as well. I'm sure there are threads about it on this board, so I'll have to research it. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[idiot face]

I have read some posts in this thread about mil/mil and FFP. Doesnt Leupold have these features on their scopes in the Mk 4 line.


Just to make sure I understand mil/mil refers to the reticle and the turrets speaking the same language right?

Thanks