Why no tube guns?

[jhodge]

Hey Guys,

Just wondering if anybody out there is using a tube gun, like a MAC or a Eliseo. I'm a high-power shooter (cross the course or XTC) who shoots a match rifle mouse gun. I'm wanting to move to a bolt gun though to make use of better cartridges, and just for something new. I'm looking at a custom action like a Borden in an Eliseo chassis. Would have thought I'd see a bunch of info here on them. The last time I shot XTC with a bolt gun, one thing that really seemed to bug me was having to move my head from the sights to cycle the bolt. On the Tubb and tube guns, the bolt runs in the stock under your face. No getting poked in the nose. I would think this would be an important factor with you guys too. Any input on the Borden or Eliseo is welcome. I'm already set on the .243, so don't try to change my mind. I can hear the 6.5 guys going nuts right now!

Thanks,

Jay

 

[Jon Lester]

Like this:


Daughters Comp rifle.

 

[jhodge]

Like this:


Daughters Comp rifle.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about. What action is in there? Is it glued in? If it is, who did it? You opinion of the good and the bad. Where is that range? I see you're in Virginia. I'm in Ohio, and am always looking for a new place to shoot.

Thanks,

Jay

 

[Jon Lester]

Accurate Ordnance does some great work with Eleiso Chassis. This is a 700 Remington Glued in, so it is permanent. I love the system and it currently hammers.
They will glue or bolt it in with the Eleiso recoil lug, your choice. I chose Glue to be certain that there was zero shift but with the glue they use it is a 1 way trip.


The Eleiso makes for easy adjustments, The baby sister set it up for her Dimensions and ran this 200 yd group.

 

[Aeon1]

My latest was an Eliseo RTS w/Rem 700 for the action. I didn't glue in I bolted it in. In addition to the bottom action bolts the Eliseo uses 4 brass setscrews front and rear at 10:00 and 2:00 that contact the action as well. It uses a ring recoil lug (like a big washer) and not a standard lug. If you want to pull it out and use it in a different chassis or standard stock you'll have to change the lug. I tend to use PTG .25" lugs on most things so I made up a few .25" ring lugs for the Eliseo's in case I want to switch stocks.

 

[steve123]

My "go-to" tactical rifle in 6x47L but wears a S&B now. On my 4th and 5th barrel, one heavy 30" and a lighter 28.5". About 9000 rounds through this rifle now.

Action is trued, screwed and glued, ha. Not using a recoil lug anymore either.

 

[Chiller]

Meh......what can you do with one of those.....

 

[steve123]

Haha, Chiller I can't forget the famous shopping cart side shoot incident at the TPRC. Cool rifle non the less!

One of those things where you'd just have to been there.

 

[D.ID]

I'm already set on the .243, so don't try to change my mind. I can hear the 6.5 guys going nuts right now!

Thanks,

Would never presume to change your mind........................6mm creedmoor.
What? Not trying to change anyones mind, just felt like typing the phrase >>>>>>>>>> 6mm creedmoor<<<<<<< in random context for no particular reason at all.......... Thats all............. honest.
6mm creedmoor.

 

[PatrickChewing]

I just got my first tube gun back from Marc Soulie at Spartan Rifles. Couldn't be happier. It has sooooo much fine adjustment that it took a few range trips to get it set up for me. Now it fits like a glove and feels like a full blown race car. Its very quick to manipulate and feels very nimble. There are many great builders out there that can really make these tube guns perform. Marc went above and beyond on mine and I ended up with a fun rifle and a good friend. I have shot a Accurate Ordinance tube gun and it was a hammer!

I looked and Borden, Pierce, and Defiance actions for mine. They all seemed to be very very nice. I went with the Defiance just because I have used them before. It was a tough choice between the Defiance and the Borden.

Specs:
Defiance Mutant Action
Eliseo RTS
Bartlein Whitley Palma 26 inches plus brake

 

[Chiller]

Haha, Chiller I can't forget the famous shopping cart side shoot incident at the TPRC. Cool rifle non the less!

One of those things where you'd just have to been there.

So very true.....

 

[jhodge]

All good info. Is it safe to assume that as far as actions go, the Borden, Defiance, and Pierce are all good? All of them right now seem to be hard to come by. I'm seeing around a 6 month wait for any rifle build these days.

Thanks,

Jay

 

[tipper]

one thing that really seemed to bug me was having to move my head from the sights to cycle the bolt. On the Tubb and tube guns, the bolt runs in the stock under your face. No getting poked in the nose.

I just don't see this happening, but to each his own nose.

 

[jhodge]

one thing that really seemed to bug me was having to move my head from the sights to cycle the bolt. On the Tubb and tube guns, the bolt runs in the stock under your face. No getting poked in the nose.

I just don't see this happening, but to each his own nose.

On the 200 yard rapid strings (sitting) a standard bolt gun (I was using a Mac Tilton Tikka) hit me every time. No problems on the offhand or prone stages. I use a low, legs crossed position that puts my face way forward on the stock. I could lengthen the pull, but then my elbows wouldn't settle onto my shins.


Jay

 

[midgetorama]

Meh......what can you do with one of those.....

What is the weight of your setup? That looks like a Sendero-ish contour on your barrel???

Thanks.

 

[Jedi]

Mine runs the Mutant action, prefer the way it totally encapsulates the action
VERY SOLID chassis
Had rail reground on mine to get more usable travel in scope, i think its around 40MOA vs 20

 

[flatland1]

This is my Eliseo RTS, set up for XC HP, with a Pearce TG action -not glued in-, 28" Krieger sendero contour in 6.5x47, CG trigger, PNW rear/Riles tallboy front sights, and Doan Trevor custom pistol grip made up from left over pieces of English walnut out of a nice blank Doan turned into an extremely nice sporter stock for a CMP M52 that I rebarreled. This was my 2nd Eliseo tubegun, the first being a R5 in 6BR, also using a Pearce TG action.

These were my first Pearce actions; they run extremely smooth, and accuracy out of both has been excellent. I ordered an extra bolt with the first one, with 223 boltface, and have a 30" Bartlein med. Palma 223 1-7.2tw for it that I throated out an extra .080" for use with Berger 90VLDs - so I can swap back & forth between the 223 & 6BR by changing bbls & bolts.

The RTS shoots great at 600, using RL-17 & Berger 130VLDs at a little over 2900fps. I run S107MKs at 3000+fps for 300, and 85gr FBHP Bergers at 3100fps at 200. Far as I'm concerned, there's not a better XC cartridge out there than the 6.5x47....oh yeah - forgot - your mind's made up on the 243.

 

[californiasushi]

Chiller,

Do you find the handstop helping you out a lot in tactical matches? Is there any downside?

 

[jhodge]

Dennis,

Thank you for the info on your rifle. That's the kind of input I'm looking for. I've been in contact with Mark at Accurate Ordnance, as well as Jim at Borden. I plan to spend premium money on this rifle, and I want to make sure I'm getting what I want.

The .243 part is me trying to keep the discussion on track, and not turn this into a 6 mm vs 6.5 mm pissing match. I have all the dies, brass, and bullets to run a .243. I've been shooting the .243 for 20 years and I don't want to start over again. I'm not the best shooter in the world, and the .243 is better than me. It might be holding you back, but I can assure you, it's not holding me back.

You mention an M52. Are you into small bore as well? I have 2 Win 52's myself, and I love them. Wouldn't trade them for anything.

Jay

 

[broke_again]

Keep it in the safe for the last two years.........lol

Meh......what can you do with one of those.....

 

[flatland1]

Jay,

You're welcome. The R5 was the 1st bolt rifle I ran in XC matches - before that, I'd been a SR shooter until legging out, then went with 6HAGAR & 6RAT spacegun uppers. The learning curve associated with running a stick shift was a little frustrating at first, but when I got to the point where I could run through all four strings of rapids w/o an alibi, I felt like I'd really accomplished something.

Only regret with the R5 was not going with a 6 Dasher instead of the BR, but I'd had questions whether the Dasher would feed as smoothly as the BR. I built another R5 for a friend & customer in Dasher, but his sons got into high school & college sports about the time I finished it, and AFAIK, he's yet to run it in a XC match.

After getting the RTS 6.5x47 up & running, the BR's lack of performance relative to the Dasher became a moot point, since the 6.5 has so much more performance than either the Dasher or BR. And the RTS ran better in the rapids than the R5, since I didn't have to run the bolt as quickly while ejecting empties in order to prevent an empty BR case just flipping around 180* and remaining in the action.

I use smallbore rifles as trainers for mid & LR prone. I've got an Anschutz 1611 with a stock that's basically the same as the Robertson H&H prone stocks on my CF LR rifles. The 1st M52D I received from the CMP was in good enough shape to restore as a target rifle, so that's what I did. However, the 2nd one was not in very good shape, with a ratty bore, and the bolt's S/N not matching the action's, so I had Mike Ross re-barrel it with a Broughton sporter weight match bbl, and asked Doan Trevor to make me a copy of the 52B Sporter stock. I'll have to dig around on the desktop computer to try to find a decent photo of it to add to this reply later. 'Bout forgot to add that I was lucky enough to be able to get both my M52 triggers worked over by Karl Kenyon before he passed away. Talk about an improvement in triggers!

Good luck with whatever route you decide to travel - I'm sure you'll enjoy shooting a tubegun.

ETA - This is the only photo of the M52 Sporter I could find - along with it is a BAT 3L prone rifle with a McGee Trudy pattern prone stock, also finished by Doan Trevor. Calling Doan a craftsman isn't enough - the guy's an artist in wood.

 

[Triggerf16]

I agree with all of the above. I have two Eliseo tubeguns, an RTS in 6.5SLR and an RTM in .284 Win. I love them both. I would recommend a medium Palma contour barrel. Mine are HV contours, and the rifles get heavy.

One is a trued 700 action, the other is a Mutant. I do not see an accuracy difference, they both hammer. Neither is glued in. I'm not sure if I would have seen a difference there either.

The one advantage to using a defiance mutant action is the recoil lug is an integral part of the action. This allows your barrel tenon to be a bit longer, maybe stiffer. Again, no difference noted.

The thing I like the most is the rifles are reliably accurate. No fuss, no bedding, no temperature issues, no bolts in the face. They just plain shoot. Every time they shoot bug holes. Some of my other rifles seem to have good days and bad days. Call it powder temp sensitivity, bedding, or the phase of the moon. My tubeguns do not have that problem. They shoot well every time. If they do not, it is my fault, not the rifle.

Another advantage is cost. When you compare a $600 glass stock, plus bottom metal and a bedding job to a tubegun chassis, the tubegun can be cheaper. There is no bedding, and the assembly is pretty easy.

I do change to an Ergo tactical grip because the palmswell design moves my hand further from the trigger for a better hand position.

 

[Oldcoast]

Ask and he shall receive. Might still be available.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/showthread.php?t=216693

 

[Chiller]

Chiller,

Do you find the handstop helping you out a lot in tactical matches? Is there any downside?

Have it there for when I shoot awful hand. Or positional.

 

[jhodge]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the good info.

Dennis, first off I have to say that 52 sporter is one of the best looking rifles I've ever seen. Just beautiful. I have a B that my dad built from a ratty old target rifle back in the 60's before anybody thought they'd be worth anything. I have an original C with the micro-motion trigger that I like to practice prone with as well. Great rifles even with their stock triggers, I can't imagine how nice a Kenyon trigger is.

Triggerf16, (F16 driver by any chance?) I noticed neither of your tube guns are glued in. That was one of my big questions. Mark at Accurate Ordnance told me he likes to glue them in, and Jim at Borden said he doesn't! Damn, more decisions. I'm starting to feel the onset of "paralysis by analysis" here. I was also wondering about the barrel length and contour, as I would like this rifle to work for XTC and long range, and don't want it to be too front heavy.

Oldcoast, I saw that rifle for sale, and it is exactly what I was thinking. The only problem is I don't need (don't think I want either) a brake, and I don't want OD Green. Other than those two minor things, that's it! Depending on the prices I get back from Mark and Jim though, I might just get over those issues.

Jay

 

[StaMic006]

All good info. Is it safe to assume that as far as actions go, the Borden, Defiance, and Pierce are all good? All of them right now seem to be hard to come by. I'm seeing around a 6 month wait for any rifle build these days.

Thanks,

Jay

5 weeks from quote to finished rifle. Accurate Ordnance is jam up!! Mark, Woody and all of the other guys in the shop made this build about more than just a rifle.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jhodge]

After talking with both Mark and Woody, when I get ready (read that as "have the money") to have this rifle built, I'll have them do it.

Jay

 

[steve123]

OT a little bit but this weekend I had the opportunity to play with two Defiance Deviants. They both had a horrible bolt binding issue. I haven't played with the Mutant yet and have often wanted to build another MAK on one. Is the binding issue typical with these?

One of the guys had both his Surgeon 591 and his new Deviant on the bench. The Surgeon had zero binding. Neither does my Surgeon XL BTW.

 

[CMH]

A question: Doesn't gluing in cause heartache when it comes time to rebarrel? Or am I missing something?

 

[lw8]

Is there a list of tubegun chassis builders?

 

[steve123]

A question: Doesn't gluing in cause heartache when it comes time to rebarrel? Or am I missing something?

Nope. My MAK/M700 is easily screwed onto the barrel as the GS checks final headspace. No need for recoil lug either, at least on non magnum cartridges anyway.

 

[Aeon1]

A question: Doesn't gluing in cause heartache when it comes time to rebarrel? Or am I missing something?

If the person that did the original work saved all the dimensions when they fit the first barrel there shouldn't be any issues at all.