I currently shoot a 7 SAUM on a long action and want to try and take advantage of the 195 Berger and hit 2950-3000 fps but I don't thing the SAUM is going to be the right fit. I'm trying to stay away from true long action cartridges so they really aren't an option. I hear 7-300 WSM is the way to go but I really don't enjoy messing around with brass and necking up or down. So that really only leaves the 7 WSM as a potential suitor so other than a shorter neck why isn't it more popular for long range?
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Why not a 7 WSM?
- Thread starter nick338
- Start date
Nick, if you have a long action why don't you want to run a true long action cartridge?
Just curious as to your thoughts/plans.
Just curious as to your thoughts/plans.
I really didn't want a long action to begin with but realized I was holding the cartridge back from its full potential with long, heavy bullets by not being able to seat them out. I also do not want to use a muzzle brake anymore and I can't own a suppressor in NY so I feel any true long action is just going to exacerbate what I feel is the approaching limit of my recoil tolerance. I was actually going to build something on a .30 and attempt this without a brake but I'm only fooling myself thinking it will be fun to shoot. I'm sure a 28 Nosler or 7 Practical with heavy bullets is not far behind.
Great explanation and I understand your reasoning.
My thought would be too run a long action with an efficient cartridge, but build a HEAVY rifle.
This would allow you run heavy high BC bullets and use the full length of the mag/action.
The weight would help mitigate the recoil without the use of a suppressor (NY ?) or the unwanted muzzle break.
My thought would be too run a long action with an efficient cartridge, but build a HEAVY rifle.
This would allow you run heavy high BC bullets and use the full length of the mag/action.
The weight would help mitigate the recoil without the use of a suppressor (NY ?) or the unwanted muzzle break.
I love me some 7 WSM. I’m not sure you can push the 195gr pills to 3000fps with a short action round though. I only run up to 175gr bullets but the 168 seems to run great in my gun and recoil is mild in a 10-12 lb rifle. YMMV. Great round just needs some love in the brass Dept.
You have a 7SAUM and its working for you in bullets other than the 195gr Berger, but you want to re-chamber, re-tool and find all the brass for a 7WSM? I honestly don't think there is much of a difference between those two cartridges. Maybe 20fps faster from the 7WSM, maybe... All that work, time and cost for a very marginal gain doesn't seem like the best use.
Also, I doubt either cartridges will push the 195gr that fast, even from 30" barrels, at least under a safe 65k psi. With this said, these high BC bullets don't need to be pushed super hard to get super good performance. A 195gr at 2800fps is still a force a long long ways out.
Best of luck either way.
Also, I doubt either cartridges will push the 195gr that fast, even from 30" barrels, at least under a safe 65k psi. With this said, these high BC bullets don't need to be pushed super hard to get super good performance. A 195gr at 2800fps is still a force a long long ways out.
Best of luck either way.
I have 2x 7 WSMs and think it is a great caliber. During load development I had a majority of 3-shot groups less than .25 moa (before people complain, I wasn't going to waste a relatively short barrel life shooting 5-round groups). The external ballistics are impressive with high BC 180 gr Bergers, and recoil is quite comfortable.
Some people complain about brass availability but Hornady, Bertram, and Winchester make brass for it. At around $1 per piece, it isn't that expensive either.
My main concern is barrel life which seems to vary widely from people claiming 800 rounds to about 2400 rounds. Most say around 1600-2000 which isn't horrible.
Some people complain about brass availability but Hornady, Bertram, and Winchester make brass for it. At around $1 per piece, it isn't that expensive either.
My main concern is barrel life which seems to vary widely from people claiming 800 rounds to about 2400 rounds. Most say around 1600-2000 which isn't horrible.
McCrazy, I will take 200rds of new Winchester 7wsm brass @ $1/rd.
Please let me who to contact to place the order.
Thank you!
Chet
Please let me who to contact to place the order.
Thank you!
Chet
Hi,
Here is 50 but at $1.18
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/76065
Here is 500 but at $1.16
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/786532867
Sincerely,
Theis
Here is 50 but at $1.18
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/76065
Here is 500 but at $1.16
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/786532867
Sincerely,
Theis
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Hi,
Brainfart because I did not see "Winchester" while reading your post.
I have no idea if this place has real time website inventory system but it appears they have what you are looking for.
https://www.dowdlesports.com/Winche...le-7mm-WSM-50_p_41569.html?lt_c=1&quickcart=1
Sincerely,
Theis
Brainfart because I did not see "Winchester" while reading your post.
I have no idea if this place has real time website inventory system but it appears they have what you are looking for.
https://www.dowdlesports.com/Winche...le-7mm-WSM-50_p_41569.html?lt_c=1&quickcart=1
Sincerely,
Theis
I'm not sure the bullets I'm using are transitioning well going out to a mile. The case capacity for the 7 SAUM is 72.6grs and the 7 WSM is 83grs which if built on a long action is useable case capacity. That should be enough to push the 195 to 2950 with a 29" barrel unless the numbers I looked at are not correct.
I know I'm probably splitting hairs between the 2 cartridges but if the extra bc and speed are enough to allow me to shoot more consistently at a mile then it's worth to me.
I know I'm probably splitting hairs between the 2 cartridges but if the extra bc and speed are enough to allow me to shoot more consistently at a mile then it's worth to me.
Not to argue but just a suggestion, if you are willing to push 30” on the barrel the weight would be there to balance recoil from the 7RM, 7-300, or 7STW. These cases are more available and would get you to the 3000fps in a long barrel.
At SHOT Peterson brass was considering producing 7WSM. If we could generate enough interest they would do it. With great brass the 7WSM would be resurrected IMHO. It really is a great little cartridge
At SHOT Peterson brass was considering producing 7WSM. If we could generate enough interest they would do it. With great brass the 7WSM would be resurrected IMHO. It really is a great little cartridge
My favorite ELR practice gun is a 7/300wsm using Norma 270wsm brass. The sized case capacity is 79 grains of water. It's not really that much more capacity than the 7 SAUM.
I've shot the 195 Hybrids in 7mm cartridges with capacities up to 122 grains of water, but went back to 180 grain bullets because they were more consistent at distance. Our range has targets at 1200, 1400, 1600, and 2200 yards. We clock every shot with a labradar and for similar velocity spreads, the 180 hybrid, VLD, and ELDm give lower vertical spreads out of 1:8 barrels.
Trying the 180 class of bullets would be easier than tooling up for a new cartridge.
Jetmd- I said Bertram, Hornady, and Winchester made brass for 7 WSM. I never stated where each brass manufacturer was currently in stock, although a little effort Googling (the arduous task of typing "7 WSM Brass" then clicking on various links turns up multiple sources to include Graf's, Gunbroker and Midway which Theis already helped you out with. If you have an itch for Winchester for less than $1 a piece specifically, try below.
https://www.dowdlesports.com/Winchester-Ammo-Unprimed-Brass-Rifle-7mm-WSM-50_p_41569.html
You said you tried them in the past but they may be worth another shot. A couple people on another forum stated that Winchester made a batch of 7WSM brass last year so maybe they have some currently.
Either way, it is your problem to solve. Good luck as you seem to prefer being passive aggressive and hoping others will do the work for you. I've got mine.
https://www.dowdlesports.com/Winchester-Ammo-Unprimed-Brass-Rifle-7mm-WSM-50_p_41569.html
You said you tried them in the past but they may be worth another shot. A couple people on another forum stated that Winchester made a batch of 7WSM brass last year so maybe they have some currently.
Either way, it is your problem to solve. Good luck as you seem to prefer being passive aggressive and hoping others will do the work for you. I've got mine.
The winchester 7 wsm brass that showed up at Cabelas site went fast, I'm sure that place doesn't have any at this point. Shortly after Cabelas had it, it was up for sale on forums for 2-2.50 per piece lol. It is generally cheaper to buy loaded Winchester ammo and pull down than it is to buy brass that pops up on the forums or gunbroker. I have no desire to shoot Hornady brass, I would rather neck down and fireform Norma 300 wsm. That's probably what my current barrel will be used for when its shot out.
I have not tried the 180 hybrid, vld or eld but I am currently going back and forth between the 183 Sierra and 184 Berger. Neither has been anything to write home about.
Several variables may come in to play. Neither bullet may handle transonic speeds well. I have no way of proving or dis-proving this.
The mile shots are over a depression and may be affected by an updraft.
The barrel is a 1-7 twist which may be over-spinning the projectiles and possibly hurting stabilization not helping it.
The loads may not have the best sd and es numbers for shooting a mile.
The action is not as tight as I would like and I'm hearing more and more about inconsistent fire control causing vertical at distance.
Too many factors to point the finger at one particular one which is why starting over with a different action and trying to increase velocity and bc was just my way of eliminating as many of them as possible.
The rifle is very accurate at everything up to 1k. Going from that distance to 1 mile has left me scratching my head.
Several variables may come in to play. Neither bullet may handle transonic speeds well. I have no way of proving or dis-proving this.
The mile shots are over a depression and may be affected by an updraft.
The barrel is a 1-7 twist which may be over-spinning the projectiles and possibly hurting stabilization not helping it.
The loads may not have the best sd and es numbers for shooting a mile.
The action is not as tight as I would like and I'm hearing more and more about inconsistent fire control causing vertical at distance.
Too many factors to point the finger at one particular one which is why starting over with a different action and trying to increase velocity and bc was just my way of eliminating as many of them as possible.
The rifle is very accurate at everything up to 1k. Going from that distance to 1 mile has left me scratching my head.
I got a notification from Midway that they had 7WSM in stock! I was on there list for when it came in to send me a notice. I place that probably a couple years ago!!! My notice came in last week, but don't know if its still in stock!
I think it would be based on the 300 PRC, which is not just a necked up 6.5 PRC. The 300 PRC is a 300 win mag+p essentially so a 7PRC would be like a 7/300+p without the belt. Whew!
That’s incredible!! I am at 3075 fps with the same bullet and powder (likely more of it) with my 27” barrel 7 wsm.
Have only taken it to beyond a mile once so far (1960 yards) but I did hit a sub MOA (17” wide and 14” tall) rock on my 3rd shot. This was with the 175 eldx though.
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Why not 7wsm?
Because they make 300 Norma ?
Because they make 300 Norma ?
7-300 norma sounds even better ???
Not saying 264 mag won't work but a 180 ELD at 3075 fps is still over 1400 fps at a mile and is around 14 mil of elevation to get there and would be roughly 2.8 mils of wind correction in a full value 10 MPH.
By comparison the 264 win with the 140 hybrid at 3150 going less than 1100 fps, needs roughly nearly 17 MILs of elevation and a full MIL extra of wind correction. Now you slap a 147 ELD in that 264 win mag and that gap narrows, but still not there.
By comparison the 264 win with the 140 hybrid at 3150 going less than 1100 fps, needs roughly nearly 17 MILs of elevation and a full MIL extra of wind correction. Now you slap a 147 ELD in that 264 win mag and that gap narrows, but still not there.
Have you actually verified the drop for the 180 ELD at a mile or are the numbers based on a ballistic program? I do not buy that bullet having a bc of over .400 when every other bullet in the same class is between .345 and .377 and even the 195 Berger is only .380. Bryan Litz has it at .360 in his book. That was the reason why I tried the 183 Sierra first because it had the highest bc.
No I haven’t. Like I mentioned above the only bullet I have shot to a mile and 200 yards further is the 175 eldx simply cause that’s the one I chose to hunt with and picked for my do all bullet. The 180 eld was not quite as accurate for me in my rifle and the BC of the 175 isn’t terrible.
Interesting stuff on the 180 though. If it’s really only .360 then I am even more glad I stuck with the 175.
.360 bc is much more believable and more in line with other bullets in its class but I do feel I have gotten caught up in the numbers within that book. The more time I spend reading through it, the more inconsistencies I find like measurements of Berger bullets not matching even close to what Berger has on their website, ogive radius's for 2 different bullets are very close to the same yet their rt/r ratio is drastically different and I don't quite understand why some bullets lose .150 or more pts in g1 bc from 3000 fps to under 1500 fps and some only lose .050.
As an example:
Hornady 180 gr ELD
Above 3000 3000-2500 2500-2000 2000-1500 Below 1500 Loss
G1 BC 0.791 0.740 0.709 0.665 0.631 - 0.160
G7 BC 0.375 0.367 0.357 0.353 0.355 -0.020
Lapua 180 gr Scenar-L
G1 BC 0.648 0.628 0.624 0.614 0.602 -0.046
G7 BC 0.307 0.312 0.314 0.327 0.340 +0.033
Both bullets are very similar in dimensions and listed as more secant than tangent ogives but the Scenar has a blunt nose yet it gains bc and the Hornady loses it, so while the ELD has a clear advantage at speeds above transonic is it becoming more unstable as speed decreases due to its pointy noise while the Scenar seems to enjoy slowing down?
An engineer I'm not so I may be interpreting a lot of this incorrectly but I have a bad habit of questioning things that don't add up or I don't fully understand.
As an example:
Hornady 180 gr ELD
Above 3000 3000-2500 2500-2000 2000-1500 Below 1500 Loss
G1 BC 0.791 0.740 0.709 0.665 0.631 - 0.160
G7 BC 0.375 0.367 0.357 0.353 0.355 -0.020
Lapua 180 gr Scenar-L
G1 BC 0.648 0.628 0.624 0.614 0.602 -0.046
G7 BC 0.307 0.312 0.314 0.327 0.340 +0.033
Both bullets are very similar in dimensions and listed as more secant than tangent ogives but the Scenar has a blunt nose yet it gains bc and the Hornady loses it, so while the ELD has a clear advantage at speeds above transonic is it becoming more unstable as speed decreases due to its pointy noise while the Scenar seems to enjoy slowing down?
An engineer I'm not so I may be interpreting a lot of this incorrectly but I have a bad habit of questioning things that don't add up or I don't fully understand.
I am shooting coated bullets so maybe that helps my velocity a touch. I'm going to see if I have time to break it out today as I do believe my BC might need a little tweak with the 180 ELDM's. Point being a SAUM loaded long isn't a slouch, so if you wanted more capacity, I'd probably skip the WSM and look at a true long action cartridge...maybe the Nosler.
https://bertrambrass.com/product/7mm-winchester-short-magnum-unprimed-brass-count/
I've been testing their 6.5 Saum brass and it's some awesome stuff. Very consistent. I'm on the 6th firing and the primer pockets are like virgin brass, tight.
Xdeano
I've been testing their 6.5 Saum brass and it's some awesome stuff. Very consistent. I'm on the 6th firing and the primer pockets are like virgin brass, tight.
Xdeano
Just a little update on the 7 SAUM. I mistyped and my load is 62.5 gr R26. My labradar showed 3045 FPS avg today. I wanted to true at 1000 but time was limited and the grass has grown a lot with the rain so I put some on steel at 700. I want to do some more work on this but for today at least a .400 G7 lined them up on my watermark line using a Kestrel elite.
I think to take it to the next performance level you need to go Nosler or Norma.
I think to take it to the next performance level you need to go Nosler or Norma.
Not to be too off topic since you are mainly asking/interested in 7WSM/SAUM. I figured I'd give you my take on a 7mm mile rifle. I shoot a 7RM with 180 hybrids at 3015 fps out of a 28inch 1/8.5 twist bartlein tube using H1000. I built it to be a mile rifle and it will do that and then some. Some people complain that the belted mags are finicky to load for but if you have your load process down they are easy IMHO. My current node using H1000 was 0.6 grains wide and the rifle shoots sub 1/2MOA. If you really want to get the full performance out of the RM throw some RL33 in it with the 180's and you can get an extra 50-100 fps out of it before pressure. I just don't like the temp sensitivity of the RL powders and H1000 seems to be more consistent with larger nodes for my rifle. RL33 was only giving me 0.2-0.3 grain nodes. Brass is available on all shelves and every website.
I have 7wsm with a Brux 9" twist 26"bbl . I have N560 N565 Retumbo IMR 8133 Re#33 and Re#26 I want the best load for Berger 184 VLD . Any suggestions ? Purpose long range steel .
You should probably start a new thread, but Retumbo, 8133, and RE26 would be my picks. This mainly comes down to some level of temp stability. Your rifle a long action, long throat?
So short action. RE 26 might be your best option. You can work with the others, but you might run out of case capacity due to seating depth. Someone needs to make a long action, long neck version of the WSM already.
This is what got me looking into the 7mm Blaser mag. But it only seems to be real popular down in New Zealand.
