why not an AK?

[Mr blasty]

Re: why not an AK?

How are the high end AK's like Krebs and Xtreme Machining?

 

[Austincqc]

Re: why not an AK?

JL - I think what a lot of the guys are saying when referring to slow mag changes and weird safety is based on being unfamiliar with the AK. Somebody's going to say they had one and still felt that way and I'm a ding dong, but seriously, there are some people that are lightning quick with them. It's all about training with any gun...some configurations lend themselves to a lower amount of training (ex. getting an ACR when you're familiar with an AR).

With the right training, an operator with an AK can be very fast IMHO. Just like an untrained person with an AR can be very slow. I saw a guy riding an 883 Harley sportster beat a guy riding a yamaha R6 from a stop light. It had everything to do with the operator.

As far as rails though, not much customizing is needed and not a lot of $$. I bought a Troy Free Float Battle Rail for about $110 and installed it within 30 minutes of opening the package. Improved accuracy and all I needed was to remove my handguard. The non-free float rails are even easier. Some models need a new barrel nut, but I wouldn't call that customizing.

I know there are mounts for sights and scopes because 75% of the world has AKs!! lol There are mounts...but here in the US, the US AR has the best options and prices.

 

[hidta107]

Re: why not an AK?

Has anyone ever went out and accurized an AK.The rifle and the ammo?

 

[hidta107]

Re: why not an AK?

I have an Arsenal AK 101 SG it does well at 300 but never tried groups any further.The 300 was on Steel.Never tried putting it on paper.

 

[Mr blasty]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 26120mjm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone ever went out and accurized an AK.The rifle and the ammo? </div></div>

I too am interested in what the upper limit of this platform is. If it's shortcomings could be fixed or even minimized then it could potentially be the ultimate combat carbine that everyone is asking for. If it was sub 2moa. had better sights and improved ergonomics (plus a few others) then why would anybody even think twice about witch one to grab in an emergency? There will always be a place in my life for any firearm that comes my way but if the AK had it's shortcomings addressed than in my opinion it would be the ultimate combat carbine.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The AK always shoots where pointed. The problem is coming to an understanding for exactly where it's pointed. </div></div>

Thank you for the laugh.

 

[excess]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr blasty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are the high end AK's like Krebs and Xtreme Machining?</div></div>

I've got a Krebs AK103. I can tell you the fit and finish is excellent. The trigger is realy nice. It's not a Geissele AR trigger but it's not the horror story I've heard either. It has a Tapco trigger, though I am not sure if Krebs reworks them or not.

Sadly, time has not been on my side, so it sits in my safe unfired. Soon I hope.

Most will tell you Kreb's is overpriced, but few will say anything bad about the quality.

 

[Mr blasty]

Re: why not an AK?

Expensive and overpriced are two different things. expensive = paying a lot for quality, overpriced = paying to much for crap or quality. Skilled labor isn't cheap and from what I've seen Krebs seems to have a lot of skill. I just wish I could try one out and be able to decide for myself. I'd love to know how it runs.

 

[338LM]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone in America should own an AK47


Good luck </div></div>

I definitely agree also that every American should know how to use and operate an AK-47 and have a couple of them stashed away with ammo.

 

[JL]

Re: why not an AK?

Just as general AK information, Finnish Defense Forces training video for troops. 7.62x39 penetration test in end. Rifle Sako RK95.

 

[marduk185]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr blasty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 26120mjm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone ever went out and accurized an AK.The rifle and the ammo? </div></div>

I too am interested in what the upper limit of this platform is. If it's shortcomings could be fixed or even minimized then it could potentially be the ultimate combat carbine that everyone is asking for. If it was sub 2moa. had better sights and improved ergonomics (plus a few others) then why would anybody even think twice about witch one to grab in an emergency? There will always be a place in my life for any firearm that comes my way but if the AK had it's shortcomings addressed than in my opinion it would be the ultimate combat carbine. </div></div>
get a shorty FAL

 

[Mr blasty]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr blasty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 26120mjm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone ever went out and accurized an AK.The rifle and the ammo? </div></div>

I too am interested in what the upper limit of this platform is. If it's shortcomings could be fixed or even minimized then it could potentially be the ultimate combat carbine that everyone is asking for. If it was sub 2moa. had better sights and improved ergonomics (plus a few others) then why would anybody even think twice about witch one to grab in an emergency? There will always be a place in my life for any firearm that comes my way but if the AK had it's shortcomings addressed than in my opinion it would be the ultimate combat carbine. </div></div>
get a shorty FAL </div></div>

I want one of those too! And one of these and one of those and five of them...... If it goes bang I want it.

 

[splean]

Re: why not an AK?

IMHO It's not that one sucks and the other is perfect or that all AKs are inaccurate and all ARs are accurate. As mentioned above, they are the products of two different theories. The AK is meant to be produced easily and quickly. They are meant to be issued to a huge conscript army where training might be cut to a minimum. It is the fruit of the Soviet WW2 experience. The AR system requires a more complicated manufacturing process which takes longer and is more expensive. The rifle is also more complicated to use and maintain. Western militaries tend to emphasize accurate rifle fire and this is reflected in the AR system's design. The latest version of the AR boasts modularity which on top of it's accuracy makes it very popular.

 

[Austincqc]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 338LM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone in America should own an AK47


Good luck </div></div>

I definitely agree also that every American should know how to use and operate an AK-47 and have a couple of them stashed away with ammo. </div></div>

Just in case Red Dawn happens in real life.

Better learn how to use the enemy's weapons.

They're just so solid and reliable. I love to hate them for that. ha!

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone in America should own an AK47
</div></div> NO......every American should own a ar, you terrorist

</div></div>

Everyone in America should own both.

</div></div>

Everybody should own a CBR1000RR as well. Good choice.

 

[Red_SC]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lennyo3034</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Everybody should own a CBR1000RR as well. Good choice. </div></div>

All three are way too much fun.

 

[[email protected]]

Re: why not an AK?

I would love a good AK - like the Finnish RK - they price the crappy ones so high though that I will never pay as much for one as an AR. The VALMET ones I would but, they are from another planet price-wise....

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: why not an AK?

For my purposes, an SKS or a Saiga are clearly adequate. My Norinco SKS with the Choate Dragunov stock is my 'Fungun', aka The Zombie Dozer.

I covet a Saiga 20ga.

For accuracy in an autoloader, I have the Garand.

Greg

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: why not an AK?

Everyone should own at least one AK.

 

[marduk185]

Re: why not an AK?

just outta curiosity h2o,
are you a lefty? i only ask because i see in the pic that a light is mounted on the left side of the perty ak. this seems to my sensibilities like it would cause undue centering to enemy firing on the source of light if shouldered right handed. sure its only a couple inches diference either way but my ocd catches these things.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: why not an AK?

I don't encounter that much enemy fire here and I will most likely
have the element of surprise on my side when I encounter an enemy.

I am right handed.

 

[marduk185]

Re: why not an AK?

not tryin to be a jackass, just throwin out food for thought...i always thought of a light source as a target albeit a useful one and it seems best to keep it as far off centerline as possible imho.

 

[forgottenomen]

Re: why not an AK?

Hey Water-Man, what stock adapter are you using on your AK? I can't seem to find one that doesn't slant down from the receiver. By the way I am running a milled receiver. Thanx

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: why not an AK?

The AK really suffers because of the shitty ass sights and piss poor scope mounting options.

 

[Je Suis Prest]

Re: why not an AK?

Each rifle has its own purpose and function. A lot of the AK bashing is often by those who haven't trained with it extensively or have some sort of prejudice to that particular platform. I don't blame them, especially if they picked up a craptastic century build or hard and heavy yugo. Their are several builders that specialize in AKs who make amazing rifles, like Rifle Dynamics and Red Jacket, Arsenal puts out some pretty good rifles as well.
Just understand that each platform has its own limitations. I say get one, learn how to use it correctly and if it doesn't work for you, sell it. I'm sure some suarez international dude will gladly take it off your hands.

 

[sharac]

Re: why not an AK?

Having used several AKs in my life from conscript time to pleasure shooting time all i can say is most of the comments here are false and caused by lack of knowledge and to some degree skill with irons.

Before someone lets steam off lets clarify; yes AR platform is inherently more accurate than AK platform no argument there...

Most of you seem to judge various rifles by accuracy measured in MOAs and kind of staying one dimensional much like carriage horses with their blinds on. There is accuracy and then there is accuracy and comparing/demanding from gas rifles accuracy of custom built bolt guns or from mass produced infantry weapons surgeon precision is a major failure on your part to properly identify and judge strengths and weaknesses. In Europe this is discussion between Tigers and T34s some die hard german engineering fans will get all red and coronary about quality of their equipment forgetting simple fact that numbers (cost nowadays) also count. And comparing AK (cheapest here in EU is CZ 858 - not really an AK design much more like Stg44 and Saiga -> 280€-500€) to HK, Sig or AR (going from 1500-2600€) without incorporating costs is mildly put unfair.

As for accuracy:

I've shot, CZ 858m Yugo M70(both ab1/2), Yugo M72, Bulgarian AK47, Saiga (M3 exp version folder which i own). When i was conscript most of the rifles we've had were piss poor due to the fact average Joe here is an absolute asshole when it comes to government or not his property but still if one did his part 5 shot groups with Yugo ammo were below 10cm on average somewhere around 7cm however most people shot around 20cm (maybe had 2/3 in a group and the rest scattered or worse). Yugo Ak was excellent in auto fire as it seems to have thicker barrel (different steel) then rest of them and it didn't get very hot. Minus for Yugo is lack of chrome lined barrel which got severely pitted (again average Joe or Janez here "care") and weren't replaced as they should've been. M72 is an AK platform with bipod and longer barrel and used as squad support weapon (dunno the logic behind it as we didn't have drums for them - or just weren't issued) and with proper bipod loading/locking it would EASILY shoot below 5cm@100m and most people did great with it. Bulgarian crap AK was chrome lined plastic (Bakelite) gun which although shot somewhere the same i believe it's barrel would melt after couple of magazines on full auto (fired 10 shots in FA and started smoking and was basically baking...). CZ 858 and Saiga were/are both shot recently and getting 5cm groups on both is quite doable (i'll admit that my shooting could be better) just not all the time.

Problem with AK irons is in shape of rear sight and thick front post. U shaped rear and cylinder in front just doesn't allow for precise placement on target (but it works great on silhouette style targets - what it was designed for) also ergonomics are poor and getting constant cheek weld can be a struggle. With Kobra sight or POSP accuracy can be achieved even if one isn't familiar with irons or doesn't want to train shooting them.

I really don't see the point in trying to shoot for groups with an AK and then bitching it won't do submoa with 20c ammo and comparing 300€ gun to a 2500€ gun and again bitching its crap. Is Ak sniper weapon yeah only when sniper looses his primary weapon, no sane soldier will go shooting an AK beyond 400m, is it doable sure when having fun with friends at the range but that's it. I think both platforms have pluses and minuses and to some who prefer precision AR will be more appealing however my opinion is that for infantry weapon AK is better platform because of the price and reasonable accuracy. Philosophy that making cheapest weapon that will do the job adequately is closer to me than striving for engineering perfection at any cost. The latter works for civilians and armies that can afford it however in SHTF on a global scale first philosophy wins or had won...

PS: Irons on AK should be sighted @ 100m to 10cm high if one wants to shoot groups (we in Europe shoot @ ISSF 50m pistol target which has black circle with diameter of 20cm so 10cm up gets you an X) as lining up sights with circle on top is more precise (in AK terms

) than having 100m@zero and aiming to a middle of a black ring. 10cm up @100m is also a 200m zero which is quite usable as for 300m you are 70cm lower and with setting of 2 you'll be 20up@100, 20up@200 and 10down@300. 3 will be for 400m+ with being around 20-30down depends on ammo.

 

[JL]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">piss poor scope mounting options</div></div>
"Piss poor" seem to mean different things for different people, but i guess availability could be worse:

Google words "AK mount", it gives 14100 hits
From the first page:
http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=74
http://store.a51tactical.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=659
http://www.socomtactical.net/ak47-and-ak74-ris-rail-top-mount-p-488.html?currency=USD
http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstmounts.html


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">shitty ass sights</div></div>
Again, not all AK:s come with same iron sights.

AK X

AK Y

Rear sights of AK Z, license and original versions

As comparsion, AR15 (A2)

Troy Industries front&rear flip-ups:

 

[edwin907]

Re: why not an AK?

There are plenty options for optics mounting for just about any AK made these days. It seems you can spend a fortune, or just a little.
Here is my solution for my A1R Arsenal.
A lowered/centered BP-02(?) mount works perfectly, cost about $50, and took an hour of my time with a hacksdaw, drill, dremel, file, and vise.
Haven't had any zero issues, the Aimpoint is super reliable, but this setup does not "co-witness" if for some reason that is of importance to you.
While I was at it, I also added flush cups for a left handed shooter like me and a PRI SPR accessory rail to the bottom front handguard (you just have to drill 2 holes).

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">shitty ass sights</div></div>
Again, not all AK:s come with same iron sights.

AK X

</div></div>

If one leaves the standard front post they should take a chain saw file to the rear sight and file a big "U" into it.

Conversely if one really see an AK as a 200 - 300 man sized rifle they should put some Big Dots on it.

Either way - it is much faster to pick up the FP with the RS opened up. Put a shallow rear on and a golf ball up front it is stupidproof.

Good luck

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: why not an AK?

putting an optic on it solves the shitty sight problem.

However even the trigger on my arsenal could be better. Of course a far departure from a good AR trigger

 

[sharac]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Conversely if one really see an AK as a 200 - 300 man sized rifle they should put some Big Dots on it</div></div>

Sorry but i can't agree, hitting man sized targets up to 300m with irons is not just doable but pretty much easy and standard practice. Not hitting it more than 90% of the time is either broken weapon or lacking shooter...

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not tryin to be a jackass, just throwin out food for thought...i always thought of a light source as a target albeit a useful one and it seems best to keep it as far off centerline as possible imho. </div></div>In my case, the light is only on to quickly ID a potential target with a quick flash.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deputy1t16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Water-Man, what stock adapter are you using on your AK? I can't seem to find one that doesn't slant down from the receiver. By the way I am running a milled receiver. Thanx </div></div>VLTOR AK-47 5 POSITION RECEIVER EXTENSION TUBE, but I don't think they make one for milled receivers.

 

[medbill]

Re: why not an AK?

I like the expression I heard from someone, the AR15 is the prom queen the AK is the biker slut.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: why not an AK?

Never owned an AK...just a SKS but today I saw an AK that scared me. When the guy next to me shot it the upper part of the receiver housing kept flying off. I wouldn't want that AK.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: why not an AK?

Doubt that's a normal occurrence.

 

[sable]

Re: why not an AK?

yeah none of the AKs ive shot or seen fired had any problems with parts "flying" or falling off. they were all built solid. the differences seem to be not even in the shooting, but in the finishing details.

 

[King-Kong]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Conversely if one really see an AK as a 200 - 300 man sized rifle they should put some Big Dots on it</div></div>

Sorry but i can't agree, hitting man sized targets up to 300m with irons is not just doable but pretty much easy and standard practice. Not hitting it more than 90% of the time is either broken weapon or lacking shooter... </div></div>
+1
Its pretty much part of the basic training that we had. Most of our guys did make well enough to hit helmet size target at 300m. Some didnt but those guys were shitty shooter anyway.


And +1 to JL.

 

[limamike56]

Re: why not an AK?

Hitting 18x24 inch metal silhouette targets is not difficult with a good AK and good ammo at 200 to 300 yards with iron sights. With a Aimpoint and Ultimak mount it's even easier.

 

[sharac]

Re: why not an AK?

Did you guys in Suomi have "grenades" for them, where you insert "blank" cartridge and close gas chamber and then you can fire antipersonnel or antitank grenade? We had that shoot but frankly recoil and awkwardness of it caused more misses than hits on tank size target @ 100m. Some said only dumbfucks would go and shoot at a tank with it (one has to stand to fire accurately and doing that in the vicinity of a tank can get you severe lead poisoning). There was urban legend it could be fired from the shoulder but recoil was so severe it moved me (and i'm not light by any standards ~90kg) a lot, some guys not standing right would fall on their backs or got taste of AK wood so i highly doubt antitank one can be, antipersonnel perhaps. Don't know how US 40mm grenade recoils but from the movies and footage i'd say its much more usable.

Grenade pic

 

[_DE_]

Re: why not an AK?

Buy the AK, and train with it you can't go wrong.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doubt that's a normal occurrence. </div></div>

It's not. And the operator was probably just an idiot that didn't know how to put the cover on properly

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: why not an AK?

If I had to emigrate to another planet and one gun only, it would be an AK, hands down. A child's first serious gun should be an AK. There is just so little they can do to it to stop it from working. Its dependence on maintenance, or not, is legendary. How many million of them are there in the world?

One more word of praise: Galil.

Greg

 

[JL]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you guys in Suomi have "grenades" for them, where you insert "blank" cartridge and close gas chamber and then you can fire antipersonnel or antitank grenade?
Grenade pic </div></div>

Never tried them when I was in army, but it doesent require special ammo. all to do is to close gasvent. Grenade tail catches the bullet, or it goes thru, not sure which one.
Grenade muzzle mount dimensions are accordingly to some nato spec. German grenade, same one that fits on G3 and FN FAL fits also Finnish RK95.

Heres RK95 w/potato musher,

In action, 45sec from start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STPaycKcXJw

 

[RSR]

Re: why not an AK?

I find them as addicting as Bolt guns , Glocks, and AR's. My favorite flavors tend to be Norinco's and Polytech's.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: why not an AK?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BillyLo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the expression I heard from someone, the AR15 is the prom queen the AK is the biker slut. </div></div>

since I want to fuck both it's all good.

 

[308LR]

Re: why not an AK?


I do like them both and have one of each...just because..

 

[CL1KKL4C]

Re: why not an AK?

All this talk of AKs lately seems to have sparked my intrest for one again. Looks like I know where my bonus check is goin' this month.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: why not an AK?

No one should have to even think of a reason to own an AK47 it's common sense.

The most widely used assault rifle in the world.


Is there anything else that need be said?

 

[Mr blasty]

Re: why not an AK?

The answer to the poor sights question:

AK REAR SIGHT RECEIVER RAIL SYSTEM
CATALOG NUMBER 24
$295.00
Click here for more information

http://www.krebscustom.com/RawPhotos/1-21-10/Rail_Assembled-650.jpg
KRSR Assembled and Locked
This part is designed to attach to the rear sight support (in front), and the tang of the rifle (in back). It's made of 7075 aluminum, anodized black, and has provisions for both windage and elevation adjustment. It's also designed to accommodate regular disassembly of an AK rifle. It provides the user with a 1913 rail over the receiver cover on a standard-pattern AK, with AR sights at the back of the receiver (providing an approximately 60% greater sight radius). Not for Yugoslavian or milled receiver rifles. Not for use with Yugoslavian, Chinese or milled receiver rifles.

And this one too:

http://tech-sights.com/

 

[Bevan]

Re: why not an AK?

It costs as much as the damn rifle nearly. $300.