Gunsmithing Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

[Wannashootit]

I get totally bamboozled by the stuff I read on the 'net sometimes.

The consensus from hanging around this board more than I should is that every smith worth a damn is booked solid for months and months on end.

Hell, I just tried to have a bent bolt made for a Mosin-Nagant and the guy emailed me that he had a lead time of 10-12 WEEKS. For a ten minute bolt job...
I modified my own, cut and bent a bolt, took it up the street and gave the local weld shop $20 to TIG it...came out perfect.

Then I read the threads- often from smiths, or retired smiths, that say forget about it if you want to earn a living at it. Do it as a hobby, work on your friends' guns, yada, yada...But DON'T try it for a source of income.

Is it a conspiracy to limit competition? Seriously, I don't get it...I don't believe for a millisecond that all these guys booked for months in advance are working for peanuts. Nahhh....

There seems to be strong demand in certain specific areas (such as custom/customized accessories) that lack a source of supply. Hell, that's what's called business opportunity.

Seems I could make a nice sideline from making and selling bent Mosin bolts alone...

 

[xring01]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

First and foremost I am not a gunsmith... However I do understand business

The answer to your question is quite simple from a business stand point...

RETURN ON INVESTMENT

Make a list of what tools and equipment that it takes for a gunsmith to do the job... Now add a price tag to it...

Then take a look at what the average job and the profitability of that job... Taking into account..

Tools, equipment, supplies, rent, utilities, marketing,... I bet they dont make anywhere near the money you think they do.

This is something that I have thought about for a retirement hobby...Doubt it will happen..

 

[monteboy84]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

It really depends on what you plan to do. The guys who are making enough to do this full-time are working with a national customer-base building a lot of full customs, the guys who are doing it for retirement side income tend to be the local gun-plumber types who spend half their time fixing old Rem 1100's. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the nature of the business, and a real businessman will have a plan from the get-go as far as what he needs to earn and how he's going to achieve that.

-matt

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

I think its more of a behind the scenes thing that causes the long lead times. Starting off can be tricky. You need to have the equipment available for whatever any job that is asked. You could limit yourself to what jobs you can do, but most consumers want a "one call does it all" smith.

Look at many of the jobs a smith does. Lets say someone sends you their rifle. They want a rebarrel, and blueprint of the action, plus a new trigger. Easy enough, take a day to get all the work done, providing you have all the parts. If you dont have the parts you need to order them from a supplier. If its in stock and not a backordered part then figure a week or so for the trigger, and 3-4 week lead time on the barrel. If it is backordered, which most of the time they are, you are looking at 8 weeks to 3 months or more to get the parts. So now you get a choice, remove the barrel and accurize the action as soon as you get it, then let it sit till you get the parts, or sit on it and dont work on it untill you get everything. Either way the customer is SOL of a rifle for however long it takes.

Then you are looking at all the work. Like I said, the typical rifle job usually includes:

Blueprint the action:
Face bolt, lugs, action
cut/clean threads
Barrel:
Cut to length
Crown
thread
chamber
headspace

Assemble and make sure everything works, set trigger.

Then lets say they want it pillar bedded in a stock.
Prep stock
drill for pillars
bed
clean up mess

Labor time, about 36 hours including the curing time for the bedding compound.

All that is for one rifle. Add about 12 more jobs to that, all varying on what the customer wants done. The biggest problem is when you have a bunch of jobs on hold for parts, then all of a sudden everything shows up at once. Then you got several weeks of labor to do, and at the same time you got more rifles coming in for work, which means ordering more parts. If you start to turn buisness away to catch up on work then you will most likely not see those people again. Even places like GAP, Mcmillan, APA and other big ones have long lag times, and the have a pretty sizable staff, and the best equipment to do the job, and do it fast. But they are still slaves to the parts suppliers.

If its a hobby, and you do it for yourself, friends and family, then its a diffrent story. Lead time is not an issue, the time to communicate to them is readily available.

BTW I am not a smith, but did consider what would be involved in doing this myself. A smith also needs to be a people person, and that I am not. At least not with people who piss me off.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

The way I see it, speaking from no experience whatsoever, is that there would need to be 2 facets of your gunsmithing business. First, you need to be able to do basically anything to any gun that comes in. That is your custom business. You need to keep quite a bit of inventory of barrels, actions, triggers, bolt knobs, bottom metals, even a few stocks. You can tie up a lot of money really fast in inventory to speed up your custom work. If you advertise, keep lead times relatively low, and do good work, you will be very busy.

The other aspect of your business would be building and selling "off the shelf" rifles. These are nice rifles that are built to a spec sheet. GAP, Texas Brigade, and several others do this. These are rifles that you can always deliver in a timely manner that you keep in stock. In theory, you can buy all the parts for these rifles in bulk so you can sell them at a reasonable price and make a reasonable profit on them. Once again, you can tie a lot of money up very fast in inventory.

By the time you buy the tools, and stock the inventory, you could have well over $100,000 in a business that will probably make 1/2 of that a year if you work hard. That doesn't include whatever building you need to have for your business. And you will be sitting on a risky amount of inventory.

 

[shoepop]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xring01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First and foremost I am not a gunsmith... However I do understand business

The answer to your question is quite simple from a business stand point...

RETURN ON INVESTMENT

Make a list of what tools and equipment that it takes for a gunsmith to do the job... Now add a price tag to it...

Then take a look at what the average job and the profitability of that job... Taking into account..

Tools, equipment, supplies, rent, utilities, marketing,... I bet they dont make anywhere near the money you think they do.

This is something that I have thought about for a retirement hobby...Doubt it will happen.. </div></div>


Very well stated. GS'ing was something I did in retirement for 2 years with "hobby" intention's. It quickly turned into a JOB, a SHITTY low paying unenjoyable one. Even though I have the equipment including mill, lathe etc. I just sent a barrel out for threading even though I'm fully capable of doing it in my shop. I just got sick of it.

 

[WRM]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

I prepared a business plan on such a business earlier this year, but couldn't make it work without forecasting unrealistic sales. The machinery wasn't the problem - labor was!...

After threading and chambering my first barrel a few months ago (with help from my buddy Bob), I now have an even better appreciation for the time involved. I know it was my first one, but it basically took all day. My business plan figured 3/day, which was probably a little optimistic.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

All good comments and feedback above.
Gotta love the entrepreneurial spirit.

While I understand the sentiment iterated above that a customer wants his gunsmith to be able to do "everything", I don't think that's how I would approach it.

As also correctly noted above, equipment is a major expense. Obviously, having to purchase a piece of expensive machinery, that wouldn't even pay for itself over a reasonable period of time wouldn't be productive. So to keep "your" customer happy (and retain him as "your" customer) perhaps you subcontract the work- if feasible.

My thoughts used to be counter to this whole concept of a "side" business. I used to say "Hell, if you've got spare time, invest it in growing the business you have, instead of starting something else". Different clime today in my current business. It's dead, although the coroner has yet to pronounce. Not coming back any time soon, and it's outta my control. The fundamentals have changed due to the past three years of bullshit. Can't grow a business if there's no demand, right?

I do comprehend the "business" end of owning a business, have a B.S. (Bullshit) in Business Admin... and understand what's involved. I'm not talking about quitting my "day job" as it were- just a means to get into some small aspects of the gun business slowly and carefully. As an example, the bolt situation I mentioned above... I have limited equipment of that type, a MAPP torch, a wire feed welder..but that wasn't gonna get the bolt done- I needed a TIG. It sure doesn't make sense to go buy a TIG welder for one bolt, so for $20 I had it professionally done.

That type of subcontracting, I think, might be applied in a larger scale for a small smithing operation. Build a good relationship with a welder. Same with a machinist with some specialized equipment that might be needed for a job. Build a "network" of professionals that assist in doing specialized work that have the right tools and equipment for the job, if I don't.
Of course, you don't make as much, if any money, by subcontracting portions. But, you get to learn the business and what's involved- and if/when it makes sense to pursue a large equipment purchase or lease, consult with the CPA and go for it.

I think that specialization has a potential role. Nothing wrong with doing just one thing- if you do it better than anyone else and there's enough demand for your product, you can be successful.

Guns are very personal to a lot of guys...kind of an extension of our personalities- just like cars are to some.

Outside of the run-of-the-mill gunsmithing, I believe there are certain opportunities that exist in the area of customization of an individual's weapons that aren't being addresses in the marketplace.

It's obviously a lot to consider.

But the fact that a guy is booked up for three months making bolt handles got my wheels turning....

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

All we do is thread muzzles. Its the only service we offer to the general public. Face to face we'll do a few more, but for just a select few that we have known and work with before. No matter how cheap we go, or how fast we work, we get complaints or people wanting more. Years ago when my husband made a living beating on guns of all sorts it was tough. You have a ton of people who want this "little thing" done, and are completely oblivious of all the others who want some other "little thing" done. They add up and take time.
Then, get a FAL build or something similar. "Oh yeah, its a complete kit..." then you have to spend a week and a half waiting for a plunger spring and a handguard ring.
Forget about the cost of tooling. I used to gripe at Jim about what he would spend on a "good deal" for whatever tool/part/machine. Then he showed me what "dealer cost" from places like Brownells is. No more complaints. If gunsmithing was easy, and cheap, everyone would be doing it.

Folks tend to just accept what a skilled proffesional is doing unless they "think" they know a lot about the subject. Shadetree mechanics tend to second guess ASE certified guys, DIY home improvement types will swear the plumber ripped them off. If you have the skills and are willing to accept the risk of ruining a weapon, smith your own guns. Otherwise you deal with the hoops and the wait of your chosen 'smith.

 

[Raven 6]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Kenda,
I'm sorry, would you please change your Avatar, I can't concentrate.lol I swear I wasn't staring. You are right however, not just your everyday person can build rifles. I know lots of machinist and most are damn good at it, but 95% would not even think about machining on a rifle. It is a specialized skill. And when you have spent the time and effort to build a buisiness and reputation you don't want to risk that to the welder down the street.

 

[x ring accuracy]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Lots of good input here. Kenda is spot on. The more day to day part of the dilema was stated by desertrat. I build high end tactical rifles but NEVER turn away a repair of (insert gun name here) to help keep local customers happy.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Well, I certainly agree- to a point.
Depends on whether you know the abilites and limitations of the "welder down the street".

Look, I know very little about gunsmithing.
But after a lifetime of working with many types of tools, and many different types of jobs, there is one thing I believe to be true.

With the proper tool(s) for the job, AND the proper understanding and instruction of what needs to be done and how it needs to be done, none of this is rocket science.

A machinist with a lifetime of experience in all aspects of milling I seriously doubt would be unable to machine a rifle if he had the necessary equipment and understanding of the process.

Just my opinion.

 

[x ring accuracy]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Kendas avatar is of her, I think......lol

 

[stefan73]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: keydiverfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kendas avatar is of her, I think......lol </div></div>

If it is I think I have to drive to Olathe for some gunsmithing

 

[redrider308]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

I'm no smith but a tool&die maker by trade.I`ve scene first hand what it takes to be a smith.I wouldn`t do it bottom line!Way to much paper work to be had.When starting up you dump alot of cash into tooling,fixtures an jigs.Then you wanna talk about time consuming
an having no life.And that`s just to get your name thrown out in the mix.I`ve been around Mark Gordon over at Short Action Customs
enough to form this opinion.I`d suggest if you`re interrested in gunsmithing talk to one first.That`s if you can find one that will share there time.

 

[Kells81]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Screw that, I used to do service work in electrical. Turns out I f*ckin hate people. If some of the smith's around had the time to make some of the cartoons that are going around it would sum it up pretty good. Some of the tarded ass questions I had to answer doin electrical work I can imagine the dumb shit a smith gets asked on a daily basis.

I have 2 smiths I use at home. One is pretty good at 1911 work and the other builds my rifles at which he is pretty good at. I bother the hell out of my 1911 guy though cause he has a bit of a slow turnaround and I am always surfing the net over here coming up with odd ideas. Seen a pic of a 1911 with a stippled slide stop, thumb safety, and mag release. Called him up since I am already getting the front strap stippled and he said no problem. Thought about it a couple days and called back told him to wash that whole gig. I have much respect for them since they put up with my dumb shit. I pay good and on time. They know when my work is done someone will pick it up in a day or two so its money in the bank.

I ended up with a Grizzly Lathe/mill combo and have done some work on it. Will be selling it soon and picking up a dedicated machine for each along with taking some classes at a close to home college for personal use. I have been buying my own tools for each task on building something which makes that project expensive on some things. I.E. I put a new JP tube on my R25, I think the tools to do this cost more than the tube.

 

[LRI]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??


Can't stand it, gotta stick my two bits in.


"It's 2010, almost 2011. Everyone on a forum at least has the ability to type and use a mouse button. Yet gunsmithing is still stuck using 100 year old technology and practices."

This is a quote from a friend. Not my words so don't light your torches just yet.

This trade has been and probably will likely be a cottage industry for some time to come. The home hobbyist is great. Won't take that from anyone. It's also the achilles heal to some degree as the overhead they enjoy is much, much lower than a full time shop.

As a full time guy it can be a challenge to compete with that price point.

That's the first challenge a guy is going to have to face once all the equipment is obtained and you have a roof over your head.


2nd. Parts.

Go to a Napa and a radiator hose is $30 bucks. Go to a garage next door to Napa and have them install a radiator hose and when the cute parts chick delivers it to the garage the part now costs $50. That's a true 40% mark up gents (cost divide by .6)and its considered the absolute bare minimum for retail. Nevermind the labor you get charged to install the hose.

What will 9 out of 10 garages do if you show up with your own hose? 6-10 won't even talk to you. 3 will install it and will tell you straight up there's no warranty on the work. 1 might do it and stand behind it. That's how auto repair works. Been there, done it.

Try that in the gun stuff. Who's willing to pay me $566 dollars for a barrel they can order direct for $340? (if there's anyone, my phone is always on!

)

It'll never happen.

Take an action. Average Defiance action retails for about $1250 ish. That'd be a cold hard $2083 please.

More Disney Land.

So, we have smiths that basically live off labor and the 5-10 bucks they can make by either buying at a dealer level or just squirm into the rates somehow.

That is why this trade can be such a daunting task.


There's plenty of work out there and the guys who are good do enjoy a considerable back log. Don't think for a second though that we (smiths) just sit and surf the web all day. Guys are bogged in work because there's just THAT much work. It's something I've had a hard time grasping myself as I've done things in the past far more complicated, yet they didn't take near as long. (NHRA Comp Eliminator engines for instance)

If your heart tells you to dive into this, then go for it. Just know your not going to get rich anytime soon.

Good luck and welcome.

C

 

[biffj]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

If you have some skill with guns and related subjects and are able to run a business in a reasonable manner than there is no reason you can't be a gunsmith for a living. Now the key is how good of a living??? If you can find a niche that isn't filled in your area than its possible to have enough customers to support your work. If you are looking at mounting scopes, tweaking triggers and building custom rifles then you have a lot of competition and a low margin return. There are some areas where you can make a higher return but its not easy. You'll have to spend a good amount of time doing a lot of work for low pay until you can build a reputation. If its something you really love and you can be a determined, dedicated worker than have at it. Find your niche.....

Frank

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Having recently built 2 guns myself, granted with off the shelf parts and such, I would think that it would be a tough way to make a living. I spent over 1300 on one rifle and it's a pretty good shooter, but I bought alot of used components for it. I think a guy would have a hard time competing with the big custom market people, such as GAP, TBA, etc.

Now on the other side of things, business is business. You will never make everybody happy and that will mean that not everybody that comes to you will come back, even if you are the only smith in the area. As Dixon stated, I would not pay 2000 for an action that I could buy for 1200! That would just be ludicris on my part and it does not make the part any better. I have done the mechanic thing as well. I have also done the parts house thing as a manager for 13years. I would consider myself to be a people person, but I'm not sure that it would be a business that I would want to do all the time and I love guns, just ask my wife. My friend does gunsmithing, mostly as a hobby, but he has alot of money wrapped up in tooling. He doesn't do custom stuff, unless he just wants to. My point is that there is alot of investment, both time and money, and most likely, unless you do really good work right off the bat, your business will not thrive for several years.

Take this into consideration. When is the last time you heard anything good about a business from an individual? Now weigh that against the last time you heard someone complaining about a business! I think you will find that you have heard many more complainers then complimenters and most of the time it's over something very simple and not very important in the overall scheme of things. To get work once is not a problem, especially if your limited on smith's in your area, but to get repeat business is difficult now days.

I'd love to give it a whirl, but I'd hate to take the risk, investment wise.

 

[mountaineerjdm]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Everybody has had some great input on here regarding gunsmithing as a business (I actually too the time to read them all). As somebody who does this on a daily basis in the industry, let me point out some approaches that might focus wannabe gunsmiths (no matter for retirement or the guy wanting to go to school to learn it (the US has great schools fellas).

1)Pick a specialty. This is true for the retiree who wants to get into it or for the guy making a career of it. A master at one focus is always better than the jack of all.

2)If you make a career of it, you WILL compete with the production side of the industry. Your customers will want to know why they should pay you $500 plus dollars to accurize a Remington 700 when they can gamble on going out and buying a new one for the same price.

3)If you're manually machining guns, you're up against the world of the CNC lathes and machines and CAD programs.

4)If you want to do general gunsmithing, set up shop in a high volume firearm area (and I dont mean the south side of Chicago or south Atlanta). You need the business AND the word of mouth and alot of gun shops near by accomplish both.

5)Beyond this, it's a business like everything else.

 

[LRI]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Everybody has had some great input on here regarding gunsmithing as a business (I actually too the time to read them all). As somebody who does this on a daily basis in the industry, let me point out some approaches that might focus wannabe gunsmiths (no matter for retirement or the guy wanting to go to school to learn it (the US has great schools fellas).

1)Pick a specialty. This is true for the retiree who wants to get into it or for the guy making a career of it. A master at one focus is always better than the jack of all.

2)If you make a career of it, you WILL compete with the production side of the industry. Your customers will want to know why they should pay you $500 plus dollars to accurize a Remington 700 when they can gamble on going out and buying a new one for the same price.


<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic">This is one part I disagree with to some extent. If you've made the commitment to start building tailor made rifles (I despise the word "custom" as it doesn't mean anything anymore IMO) then your customer base should also be folks who want the "extras" that a rack gun won't have. These aren't cold call sales where your distracting someone from a football game and convincing them to switch insurance plans. Once established and reputable your going to find the clients will make the effort to seek you out. Rarely am I engaged in the argument of trying to convince someone they need a custom rifle. If the conversation goes in that direction I politely find a way to end it quickly. Those are not the customers I want as experience has taught me they will never be happy. They can't get past the buyers remorse and/or the lack of appreciation from the wife who can't agree that $4000 bucks on a gun is/was a great idea.

You will find that you have to learn how to pick your customers the same way you pick the parts for your builds. Get the good ones and the % of problems reduces.
</span></span>


3)If you're manually machining guns, you're up against the world of the CNC lathes and machines and CAD programs.
<span style="color: #000099">
<span style="font-style: italic">CNC machinery is common in production manufacturing. In fact its the only way to survive. CNC machinery in custom gunsmithing is pretty rare. Very few gunsmiths are using this equipment for all facets of their work. To the best of my knowledge I'm in a crowd of less than 5. The investment is huge and then you have to sort out how to run them. Let alone run them fluently. Then there's software. If you don't have that and the skill set to use it your going to suffer a slow painful death.</span></span>


4)If you want to do general gunsmithing, set up shop in a high volume firearm area (and I dont mean the south side of Chicago or south Atlanta). You need the business AND the word of mouth and alot of gun shops near by accomplish both.

5)Beyond this, it's a business like everything else.

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic">Unfortunately it's not a business like everything else. In retail you get a minimum of a 40% markup. It will never happen with guns or gunsmithing. You can get it if you manufacture your own product but you better have something that customers want otherwise it's just junk on a shelf. </span></span><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic">Lethargic parts availability. I bought a set of "custom" CNC ported heads with titanium valves and Jesel rockers for the 2004 GTO I used to have. I had them in a week. A custom barrel is 3 weeks out at best and worse is a year+. It's really tough to float a job that long. Prepare yourself. From the moment a deal is closed I know it'll be at least 90 days before parts begin to show up on the floor. With that kind of lag you better be doing a lot of talkin if you want to survive!</span></span>

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Thanks for all the input guys (and gals).

I don't think for one second that I'm gonna rent a shop, buy tens of thousands $$ in equipment, hang up a sign that says "Gunsmith open for business" and expect to earn a living...not by a long shot. I'm not delusional.

I worked for ten years and built my current business to seven figures, then...well, if you're a contractor in Florida and most of the rest of the country, you know the rest...

So, I'm looking for a sideline- for now. Hopefully I can grow it slowly and carefully. I'm no gunsmith...but I know my way around a shop and love guns- a good start. As Mountaineer said, if I do anything it will be a selected, specialized and limited focus to start. Who knows- perhaps it'll be those bent bolts for Mosin-Nagants...it's all a matter of finding an area of demand that's not being met, and meeting that demand- as long as there's delivery on quality and service. Same as any other business.

If I can find that area of demand, learn it carefully, specialize in it- and particularly if no one else (or limited others) provide that service, it should stand a reasonable chance of success.

Happy New Year, everyone. Wishing all of you a happy, healthy, and PROSPEROUS $$ one...

 

[biffj]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

I spent 4 or 5 years working the FFL part time while I had a full time job. It allowed me to build up a reputation in the industry and to figure out how things worked in real life. It was different than I expected. Lots of misinfo on the regs etc. It took about 3 years to get the confidence of the big guys in the industry and once I had them on my side I've been pretty busy. I've been working a little outside my niche too though still related fields....building special rifles for suppressors and playing with subsonic ammo.
Point is that you need to be the driver and do what you want. Running the FFL at the same time as any other job is a good way to get into the industry. You can work your way up slowly before becoming dependent on the income from the FFL. Getting the license (FFL) is not tough but you need to decide what you want to do first. You may need a manufacturers FFL (type 7) if you want to build complete guns and sell them. If you just want to work on customer guns a regular type 1 (dealer or gunsmith) FFL should be fine. There are some different regs for each and record keeping requirements are different too.
Good luck and don't be scared if its something you want to do. Just don't expect to make big bucks off the bat.

Frank

 

[mountaineerjdm]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

-A custom barrel is 3 weeks out at best and worse is a year+. It's really tough to float a job that long. Prepare yourself. From the moment a deal is closed I know it'll be at least 90 days before parts begin to show up on the floor. With that kind of lag you better be doing a lot of talkin if you want to survive!
-This is one part I disagree with to some extent. If you've made the commitment to start building tailor made rifles (I despise the word "custom" as it doesn't mean anything anymore IMO) then your customer base should also be folks who want the "extras" that a rack gun won't have. These aren't cold call sales where your distracting someone from a football game and convincing them to switch insurance plans. Once established and reputable your going to find the clients will make the effort to seek you out.

These are very good points as well. I tend to work with hunting rifles and this is where i differ, because Chad is 100% correct in that customers will seek you out after things get moving. The points I made were mainly aimed at hunting rifle building, which here on the East Coast consists of customers shooting deer with a $500 remington rifle that's uncomfortable or doesnt fit them. That's when they ask what the differences are in a custom hunting rifle vs. production. With reference to target/tactical, these guys tend to know exactly what they want and are willing to pay for it. Thanks Chad.

 

[Tactical Support]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Well said Chad!!

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

Ya "custom" just means aftermarket now.



There are as many different salaries in this line of work as there are in the food or car industry. You can make $10 an hour or $100+ an hour. 10k a year as a retiree or hobbiest, or $250k as a big business.

You think $4000 or $5000 is a lot for a rifle? There are shotguns worth as much as BMWs. Double guns worth as much as a cheap house right now.
It all depends on everything and anything.




Id build rifles no matter what the pay. But if you're smart about it and work efficiently and accurately you can turn out a great product while making a good buck at it.
If you try to learn everything under the sun, you'll reduce your pay significantly. If you stick to what youre good at you can do well.

 

[AllenP]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

If I had the know how and equipment, I'd be building bullseye pistols. Those guys WAIT. It's gonna be 10-12 months for a Clark hardball. Even Les Baer takes 6 months to get you a production pistol built on their terms.

 

[kortik]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I certainly agree- to a point.
Depends on whether you know the abilites and limitations of the "welder down the street".

Look, I know very little about gunsmithing.
But after a lifetime of working with many types of tools, and many different types of jobs, there is one thing I believe to be true.

With the proper tool(s) for the job, AND the proper understanding and instruction of what needs to be done and how it needs to be done, none of this is rocket science.

A machinist with a lifetime of experience in all aspects of milling I seriously doubt would be unable to machine a rifle if he had the necessary equipment and understanding of the process.

Just my opinion. </div></div>

You're absolutely correct. Professional machinist with enough experience, some brain and solid understanding of materials, datums, feeds and speeds can do gun parts at least as well or, more likely, much better than an average gunsmith. From business point of view, it may be a damn good idea to set up a shop with some quality eqipment, fixtures and tools to do certain machining operations and sell these services to people in gunsmithing business, who need them.

But, as other posters mentioned, gunsmithing for living involves a bunch of other stuff, including paperwork, lots of different parts, need to deal with customers, with some of them being a real pain in certain body part, need to have overall firearms related knowledge, etc...

So, I think if you decide to have efficient and profitable operation, it must be very specialized and must not be aimed to provide full gunsmithing services. Something like doing barrel work, or, as you've mentioned, bent MN bolt handles. A couple of well designed fixtures will help to make money and can seriously reduce delivery time.

 

[Muskox]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

I am retiring from the Navy in a couple years, pretty excited about it, tired of the BS in the end of it, though I did score with a really good post-retirement tour.

Got some job prospects with what I do, and not really worried (at least at this point 26 months out) about a job.

However, after 20 years in the military I don't really want to deal with a lot of BS. I had thought seriously about going into a custom rifle business, and I am at least at this stage having quite a few doubts. Like quoted above; too much paperwork, fighting clients for daily stupid questions, and a huge initial influx of cash in equipment.

That being said, the goal is to manufacture non-BATF serialized items like stocks, triggers, and magazine systems, and if the BATF drama and pqperwork isn't too bad, maybe eventually step into silencers.

Hard to see the future, and very hard to know what the world will turn into after retirement.

I know lots of smiths that kill themselves working a lone for $20-50,000 a year, and a few that have ridden some aspect of a gimmick to make a lot more.

I think a guy is better off buying land an building a storage space for rent company.

 

[Clark]

Re: Why not Gunsmithing for a living??

I know a smith in his 50's who is really smart and hardworking that pays taxes on his income from his biz of $30k/year.

I know an engineer who is 24, really smart, and gets a salary of $140k/ year + benefits + signing bonus + stock options, and the stock is going straight up right now.

I know a 55 year old attorney who makes $500k/year. He is smart at Scrabble, but I can't seem to teach him parallel from series in how to hook up his electric trains to transformers. [left brain hemisphere retarded]

What does it all mean?
If you can't figure it out, I can't help you.