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why not hunt with 175 smk's
- Thread starter kingfamous
- Start date
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
LOL. This one again eh?
There should be a FAQ for the Hunting section. I think this is like the eleventy-billionth time this question has been asked.
It's like a bad case of the clap, it just won't go away
Relying on an 'el premium sooper dooper copper wunderboolit' to pad your poor shots? Hrmm.....no....
It's a wonder that anything out their died before .338 RUM's and the Barnes X...but I digress....
A buddy of mine related an interesting observation to me earlier this year. He watched some yahoo put 5 Corelokts into the ass end of a large bull Elk several years ago. Launched out of a .300 Win no less before the damn thing decided to die. Imagine what you could do with ONE well placed shot?
For the above poster that said "Sierra says not to." Did you stop to consider that they might just want you to buy ANOTHER bullet for hunting in addition to to buying the SMK? The marketing dept. at work?
LOL. This one again eh?
There should be a FAQ for the Hunting section. I think this is like the eleventy-billionth time this question has been asked.
It's like a bad case of the clap, it just won't go away
Relying on an 'el premium sooper dooper copper wunderboolit' to pad your poor shots? Hrmm.....no....
It's a wonder that anything out their died before .338 RUM's and the Barnes X...but I digress....
A buddy of mine related an interesting observation to me earlier this year. He watched some yahoo put 5 Corelokts into the ass end of a large bull Elk several years ago. Launched out of a .300 Win no less before the damn thing decided to die. Imagine what you could do with ONE well placed shot?
For the above poster that said "Sierra says not to." Did you stop to consider that they might just want you to buy ANOTHER bullet for hunting in addition to to buying the SMK? The marketing dept. at work?
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you only knew how many animals elkhuntingguide kills a year you'd turn tail and skidaddle....... </div></div>
that's simply ignorance of "how many animals" i kill a year. not to start a pissing match, esp over something like that, but just because i listed only 300 and something animals last year with the amax, that doesn't really account for others.....farming, trapping, nuisance permits, need i continue?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you only knew how many animals elkhuntingguide kills a year you'd turn tail and skidaddle....... </div></div>
that's simply ignorance of "how many animals" i kill a year. not to start a pissing match, esp over something like that, but just because i listed only 300 and something animals last year with the amax, that doesn't really account for others.....farming, trapping, nuisance permits, need i continue?
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
i loaded some 175smks up for a buddy of mine. he took them hunted and dropped 2 deer in their tracks. its 99% where you hit them. pretty much any bullet is going to do its job if you do your job of putting it in the right place. why is a match king less likely to pierce the deer hide, penetrate both lungs and exit, than a gameking?
i loaded some 175smks up for a buddy of mine. he took them hunted and dropped 2 deer in their tracks. its 99% where you hit them. pretty much any bullet is going to do its job if you do your job of putting it in the right place. why is a match king less likely to pierce the deer hide, penetrate both lungs and exit, than a gameking?
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jgn8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jgn8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
TerrorInTheShadows said:
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: offroadr1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i loaded some 175smks up for a buddy of mine. he took them hunted and dropped 2 deer in their tracks. its 99% where you hit them. pretty much any bullet is going to do its job if you do your job of putting it in the right place. why is a match king less likely to pierce the deer hide, penetrate both lungs and exit, than a gameking? </div></div>
Because they dont reliably expand, thats the issue. Yeah, they can kill deer, but dont hit them in the right spot, or if they dont expand, you take a chance of losing the deer. That sucks, especially if its a monster. Me, I will use bullets designed to do the job and shoot just as accurately as the SMKs. I save the SMKs for paper.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: offroadr1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i loaded some 175smks up for a buddy of mine. he took them hunted and dropped 2 deer in their tracks. its 99% where you hit them. pretty much any bullet is going to do its job if you do your job of putting it in the right place. why is a match king less likely to pierce the deer hide, penetrate both lungs and exit, than a gameking? </div></div>
Because they dont reliably expand, thats the issue. Yeah, they can kill deer, but dont hit them in the right spot, or if they dont expand, you take a chance of losing the deer. That sucks, especially if its a monster. Me, I will use bullets designed to do the job and shoot just as accurately as the SMKs. I save the SMKs for paper.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jgn8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> exploding the abdullah oblongata </div></div>
Don't know if this was an intentional or not, but excellent play on words!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jgn8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> exploding the abdullah oblongata </div></div>
Don't know if this was an intentional or not, but excellent play on words!
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
HAHAHA!!!! It's been a few years since I first learned what that was, guess I kinda lost how to pronounce and spell it too!!!! LMAO
Here is correction
Definition of Medulla oblongata ... Medulla oblongata: The base of the brain, which is formed by the enlarged top of the spinal cord. ...
HAHAHA!!!! It's been a few years since I first learned what that was, guess I kinda lost how to pronounce and spell it too!!!! LMAO
Here is correction
Definition of Medulla oblongata ... Medulla oblongata: The base of the brain, which is formed by the enlarged top of the spinal cord. ...
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
for Police snipers especially for court testimony we are not trained to "shoot to kill". We are trained to place a round in a place to most expediently nutralize a threat. It is mear coinscidence that a side effect is usually death when a round is placed in the ocular window, subsequently severing the cerebral cortex.
for Police snipers especially for court testimony we are not trained to "shoot to kill". We are trained to place a round in a place to most expediently nutralize a threat. It is mear coinscidence that a side effect is usually death when a round is placed in the ocular window, subsequently severing the cerebral cortex.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is mear coinscidence that a side effect is usually death when a round is placed in the ocular window, subsequently severing the cerebral cortex.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is mear coinscidence that a side effect is usually death when a round is placed in the ocular window, subsequently severing the cerebral cortex.</div></div>
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
Why not?
Because there are better bullets available.
HOwever, I'm sure if it is all you have and you do your part you won't have problems. In the 19th century people hunted with lead balls and blackpowder and took game. I'm sure a .308 with ANY bullet will be better than that.
Why not?
Because there are better bullets available.
HOwever, I'm sure if it is all you have and you do your part you won't have problems. In the 19th century people hunted with lead balls and blackpowder and took game. I'm sure a .308 with ANY bullet will be better than that.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMH</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jgn8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> exploding the abdullah oblongata </div></div>
Don't know if this was an intentional or not, but excellent play on words!
</div></div>
Especially funny when I looked up/confirmed the meaning of abdullah......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMH</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jgn8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> exploding the abdullah oblongata </div></div>
Don't know if this was an intentional or not, but excellent play on words!
</div></div>
Especially funny when I looked up/confirmed the meaning of abdullah......
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uhhh....Doesn't that violate the Geneva convention? Or are you talking non-military only?
EDIT: OK - I was all wet on this. First off, expanding bullets are controlled by Hague, not Geneva. And through the magic of loopholes, I guess, the military states that MK's are not hollow points designed for expansion, but the bullet design is rather for increased accruacy. Apparently intent somehow comes into play with this determination. Learn something everyday, I guess.
</div></div>
As you noted they are not designd to expand. For a few years they were designated as OTM, Open Tip Match. I don't know if they still are.
"abdullah oblongata" I might use that one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uhhh....Doesn't that violate the Geneva convention? Or are you talking non-military only?
EDIT: OK - I was all wet on this. First off, expanding bullets are controlled by Hague, not Geneva. And through the magic of loopholes, I guess, the military states that MK's are not hollow points designed for expansion, but the bullet design is rather for increased accruacy. Apparently intent somehow comes into play with this determination. Learn something everyday, I guess.
</div></div>
As you noted they are not designd to expand. For a few years they were designated as OTM, Open Tip Match. I don't know if they still are.
"abdullah oblongata" I might use that one.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[How are you taking a chance at losing a deer if a smk through both lungs, heart, or spine doesn't expand? I'm pretty positive it doesn't matter if it expands or not. </div></div>
If you just punch a little .30 cal hole thru and the deer doesnt bleed as it runs off, how ya gonna find it? Guess you can wait for the buzzards to circle a day or two later. That works well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[How are you taking a chance at losing a deer if a smk through both lungs, heart, or spine doesn't expand? I'm pretty positive it doesn't matter if it expands or not. </div></div>
If you just punch a little .30 cal hole thru and the deer doesnt bleed as it runs off, how ya gonna find it? Guess you can wait for the buzzards to circle a day or two later. That works well.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Uhhh....Doesn't that violate the Geneva convention? Or are you talking non-military only?
EDIT: OK - I was all wet on this. First off, expanding bullets are controlled by Hague, not Geneva. And through the magic of loopholes, I guess, the military states that MK's are not hollow points designed for expansion, but the bullet design is rather for increased accruacy. Apparently intent somehow comes into play with this determination. Learn something everyday, I guess.
</div></div>
More reading on the subject http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/08-2006.pdf
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Uhhh....Doesn't that violate the Geneva convention? Or are you talking non-military only?
EDIT: OK - I was all wet on this. First off, expanding bullets are controlled by Hague, not Geneva. And through the magic of loopholes, I guess, the military states that MK's are not hollow points designed for expansion, but the bullet design is rather for increased accruacy. Apparently intent somehow comes into play with this determination. Learn something everyday, I guess.
</div></div>
More reading on the subject http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/08-2006.pdf
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little 30 caliber hole through both lungs makes huge frothy pink blood trails from aspirated lung blood. If you can't hit a basketball (lungs & heart) size target 100% of the time, you shouldn't take the shot. This is a stupid arguement, and I stand by my statement that if you put a hole through both lungs, the heart, or the spinal cord, it's over.... hard to argue that. A deer that can't breathe or circulate blood can go 150yards tops before it drops. If your tracking skills aren't adequate to find a deer in that distance, maybe you should take up photography. </div></div>
See more than one not bleed after being hit thru all of the above, yeah, they bled internally but nothing on the ground. Maybe in Alaska you got some wide open stuff that easy to track in, but around here, if one gets in the swamp, or into the thick stuff, forget about tracking them unless they are leaving pools of blood. Naw, I would rather drop them in their tracks. And no, I dont tend to have a problem hitting them where I want, even my 9 yr old pulls that off routinely, but we are also smart enough to use the right bullet. Maybe its the folks that insist on using a target bullet when hunting bullets exist that should take up photography.....hard to argue with the manufacturers who specifically tell you NOT to hunt with the SMK. I find that a little hard to argue with.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little 30 caliber hole through both lungs makes huge frothy pink blood trails from aspirated lung blood. If you can't hit a basketball (lungs & heart) size target 100% of the time, you shouldn't take the shot. This is a stupid arguement, and I stand by my statement that if you put a hole through both lungs, the heart, or the spinal cord, it's over.... hard to argue that. A deer that can't breathe or circulate blood can go 150yards tops before it drops. If your tracking skills aren't adequate to find a deer in that distance, maybe you should take up photography. </div></div>
See more than one not bleed after being hit thru all of the above, yeah, they bled internally but nothing on the ground. Maybe in Alaska you got some wide open stuff that easy to track in, but around here, if one gets in the swamp, or into the thick stuff, forget about tracking them unless they are leaving pools of blood. Naw, I would rather drop them in their tracks. And no, I dont tend to have a problem hitting them where I want, even my 9 yr old pulls that off routinely, but we are also smart enough to use the right bullet. Maybe its the folks that insist on using a target bullet when hunting bullets exist that should take up photography.....hard to argue with the manufacturers who specifically tell you NOT to hunt with the SMK. I find that a little hard to argue with.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little 30 caliber hole through both lungs makes huge frothy pink blood trails from aspirated lung blood. </div></div>
I put a 250gr 50 cal sabot through both lungs of a doe this yr, the only blood anywhere was the 3 bright chunks of lung where she was standing when I shot her and the puddle where she laid down to die 30 yds away. The point here is, there was no blood trail anywhere and she was shot clean through both lungs. My partner and I were beginning to get worried about finding her when he walked up on the dead deer because it was getting late and we were losing light. Reality is that rifles tend not to leave the blood trails like archery does but that is a whole 'nother discussion.
Lets face it, you can shoot what ever you want to, you can take ill advised shots, you can show your 733t sniper skills and take head shots, you can use target bullets to hunt, and nobody is going to stop you (unless you are my son and hunting with me). I'm entitled to think you are an ass for doing it, and you're entitled to think I'm one for saying so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little 30 caliber hole through both lungs makes huge frothy pink blood trails from aspirated lung blood. </div></div>
I put a 250gr 50 cal sabot through both lungs of a doe this yr, the only blood anywhere was the 3 bright chunks of lung where she was standing when I shot her and the puddle where she laid down to die 30 yds away. The point here is, there was no blood trail anywhere and she was shot clean through both lungs. My partner and I were beginning to get worried about finding her when he walked up on the dead deer because it was getting late and we were losing light. Reality is that rifles tend not to leave the blood trails like archery does but that is a whole 'nother discussion.
Lets face it, you can shoot what ever you want to, you can take ill advised shots, you can show your 733t sniper skills and take head shots, you can use target bullets to hunt, and nobody is going to stop you (unless you are my son and hunting with me). I'm entitled to think you are an ass for doing it, and you're entitled to think I'm one for saying so.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">See more than one not bleed after being hit thru all of the above, yeah, they bled internally but nothing on the ground.</div></div>
Amen to that. I was up in NC, hunting Whitetail deer over Christmas and shot 4 deer with 165gr Accubonds and 3 out of 4 left ZERO blood on the ground. All my shots were under 100-yards and all shots, but the last one, were money shots in the heart/lung breadbox. The last one I shot, that left blood, I shot in the neck because I was so pissed about tracking the previous 3 with no blood (I walked the direction they ran and hoped for the best).
So, if a bullet designed to expand leaves little to no blood on short shots how do you suppose a bullet not intended to open up would help? It's inhumane at most and irresponsible at the minimum to hunt with SMKs. Especially if the manufacturer say s"don't hunt with this bullet".
Just my 2 cents...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">See more than one not bleed after being hit thru all of the above, yeah, they bled internally but nothing on the ground.</div></div>
Amen to that. I was up in NC, hunting Whitetail deer over Christmas and shot 4 deer with 165gr Accubonds and 3 out of 4 left ZERO blood on the ground. All my shots were under 100-yards and all shots, but the last one, were money shots in the heart/lung breadbox. The last one I shot, that left blood, I shot in the neck because I was so pissed about tracking the previous 3 with no blood (I walked the direction they ran and hoped for the best).
So, if a bullet designed to expand leaves little to no blood on short shots how do you suppose a bullet not intended to open up would help? It's inhumane at most and irresponsible at the minimum to hunt with SMKs. Especially if the manufacturer say s"don't hunt with this bullet".
Just my 2 cents...
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
Im sick of this thread. Nice play on words though, i didn't catch it at first but then it made me laugh
Im sick of this thread. Nice play on words though, i didn't catch it at first but then it made me laugh
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
Those Barnes will work great for ya as well as the Nosler Partitions...
Barnes Triple Shock...
Nosler Partition...
Those Barnes will work great for ya as well as the Nosler Partitions...
Barnes Triple Shock...
Nosler Partition...
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
Guys please keep in mind people have been killing animals for millenia, be it with a stone, a trap, a club, an arrow or a bullet.
Stop concerning yourself with what to use and learn how to hit targets where they need to be hit!
SIMPLE
If you want to be a douche bag and use a .22lr, well its only you and the poor deer that will suffer in the end.
And to set the record straight, there are multiple accounts of failures of hungtin bullets to do the intended job just as there is as many accounts of match bullets not doing the job too.
Get over it, shoot properly... leave the universe to decide the fate of the target animal.
If Hades is by your side you will take home something to feed the family with.
Guys please keep in mind people have been killing animals for millenia, be it with a stone, a trap, a club, an arrow or a bullet.
Stop concerning yourself with what to use and learn how to hit targets where they need to be hit!
SIMPLE
If you want to be a douche bag and use a .22lr, well its only you and the poor deer that will suffer in the end.
And to set the record straight, there are multiple accounts of failures of hungtin bullets to do the intended job just as there is as many accounts of match bullets not doing the job too.
Get over it, shoot properly... leave the universe to decide the fate of the target animal.
If Hades is by your side you will take home something to feed the family with.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
Late coming to this usual go round as I was out last week for the end of deer season here.
Might want to keep an open mind and listen to EHG and PGS who shoot way more than a few each year.
My season tally of DRT results - 8 pigs, 3 Axis deer, 5 White-tails, with 175 SMK out of a 308. All free range. Most shots were 100 - 200 yards, but a few were longer with the longest at 447, which was also dropped where it stood.
Wife used 175 SMK's on 2 White-tail and 1 Axis with similar results.
Only shot that was not DRT for me was with a 180 Barnes TSX out of a 30-06 in Saskatchewan. Went about 50 yards without a single drop of blood with a shoulder shot as requested by the hunt operator. The exit wound could not be found on the animal until it was skinned. This was my first time to use Barnes and it was a major disappointment. Went with SMK's for rest of the season with complete confidence and DRT results.
Shot placement trumps all. Diagonally through with entry forward of the shoulder/base of the neck, exit behind the opposing shoulder forward of the diaphragm is my favorite, base of the neck, or a high shoulder works if they are broadside to impact just on the bottom side of the spine, without tearing up the meat on the topside. My does were head shots, except for the one, which was a bit longer on a windy day, so took a shoulder shot.
Only wounded and lost animals that I saw all season were from one hunter using a 25-06 with Ballistic Tips. He lost one deer, wounded another that was recovered, and wounded a small pig with a perfect neck shot. Definitely would not use Ballistic tips after seeing those multiple failures.
Late coming to this usual go round as I was out last week for the end of deer season here.
Might want to keep an open mind and listen to EHG and PGS who shoot way more than a few each year.
My season tally of DRT results - 8 pigs, 3 Axis deer, 5 White-tails, with 175 SMK out of a 308. All free range. Most shots were 100 - 200 yards, but a few were longer with the longest at 447, which was also dropped where it stood.
Wife used 175 SMK's on 2 White-tail and 1 Axis with similar results.
Only shot that was not DRT for me was with a 180 Barnes TSX out of a 30-06 in Saskatchewan. Went about 50 yards without a single drop of blood with a shoulder shot as requested by the hunt operator. The exit wound could not be found on the animal until it was skinned. This was my first time to use Barnes and it was a major disappointment. Went with SMK's for rest of the season with complete confidence and DRT results.
Shot placement trumps all. Diagonally through with entry forward of the shoulder/base of the neck, exit behind the opposing shoulder forward of the diaphragm is my favorite, base of the neck, or a high shoulder works if they are broadside to impact just on the bottom side of the spine, without tearing up the meat on the topside. My does were head shots, except for the one, which was a bit longer on a windy day, so took a shoulder shot.
Only wounded and lost animals that I saw all season were from one hunter using a 25-06 with Ballistic Tips. He lost one deer, wounded another that was recovered, and wounded a small pig with a perfect neck shot. Definitely would not use Ballistic tips after seeing those multiple failures.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
I never use 175 SMKs for hunting deer.
I strictly use 130 SMKs in my .270.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Base of the neck,
in front of the shoulder, or (my favorite) angling toward you when they drop their head to browse. Bisect the shouldes, they all drop in their tracks.
I never use 175 SMKs for hunting deer.
I strictly use 130 SMKs in my .270.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Base of the neck,
in front of the shoulder, or (my favorite) angling toward you when they drop their head to browse. Bisect the shouldes, they all drop in their tracks.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
These comments sum it up, as have many other threads arguing the same point.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">keep in mind people have been killing animals for millenia, be it with a stone, a trap, a club, an arrow or a bullet.
Stop concerning yourself with what to use and learn how to hit targets where they need to be hit!
there are multiple accounts of failures of hungtin bullets to do the intended job just as there is as many accounts of match bullets not doing the job too.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">listen to EHG and PGS who shoot way more than a few each year. </div></div> <span style="color: red"> and a HUGE understatement I might add </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.</div></div>
If you hit them right, they will will die. Musket balls were killing things for a long time before jacketed, bonded, solid, and all the other kinds of super bullets came around. Nothing replaces a well placed shot, use what you shoot most accurately, because that will make the difference.
These comments sum it up, as have many other threads arguing the same point.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">keep in mind people have been killing animals for millenia, be it with a stone, a trap, a club, an arrow or a bullet.
Stop concerning yourself with what to use and learn how to hit targets where they need to be hit!
there are multiple accounts of failures of hungtin bullets to do the intended job just as there is as many accounts of match bullets not doing the job too.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">listen to EHG and PGS who shoot way more than a few each year. </div></div> <span style="color: red"> and a HUGE understatement I might add </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.</div></div>
If you hit them right, they will will die. Musket balls were killing things for a long time before jacketed, bonded, solid, and all the other kinds of super bullets came around. Nothing replaces a well placed shot, use what you shoot most accurately, because that will make the difference.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rdsii64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My .308 only has one hunting trip to its credit( more are planned in the future). The one trip it does have resulted in a 250 pound hog that was head shot with a 175 grain berger VLD. The bullet hit about an inch forward of the ear. That pig dropped immediatly and kicked for about 20 seconds then all movement ceased. When I get the oppurtunity to make another hunting trip, I think I want to try the Barnes Tripple shock to see how they perform. </div></div>
Which Berger 175? They have a thin jacketed hunting round and a thicker jacketed target round. Curious because I'm thinking of making a batch up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rdsii64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My .308 only has one hunting trip to its credit( more are planned in the future). The one trip it does have resulted in a 250 pound hog that was head shot with a 175 grain berger VLD. The bullet hit about an inch forward of the ear. That pig dropped immediatly and kicked for about 20 seconds then all movement ceased. When I get the oppurtunity to make another hunting trip, I think I want to try the Barnes Tripple shock to see how they perform. </div></div>
Which Berger 175? They have a thin jacketed hunting round and a thicker jacketed target round. Curious because I'm thinking of making a batch up.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
The Berger hunting rounds are supposed to be DRT bullets. Supposedly the shred their weight a few inches within the target.
To be honest I have seen similar things happen with Scenars and SMK's.
The Berger hunting rounds are supposed to be DRT bullets. Supposedly the shred their weight a few inches within the target.
To be honest I have seen similar things happen with Scenars and SMK's.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
I've used both(premium expanding, and match),had good results with both, fantastic failures as well. Where's the pic of the guy beating the dead horse?
I've used both(premium expanding, and match),had good results with both, fantastic failures as well. Where's the pic of the guy beating the dead horse?
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never use 175 SMKs for hunting deer.
I strictly use 130 SMKs in my .270.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Base of the neck,
in front of the shoulder, or (my favorite) angling toward you when they drop their head to browse. Bisect the shouldes, they all drop in their tracks. </div></div>
I guess you like your backstraps shredded then! lol that shot will ruin some good meat wont it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never use 175 SMKs for hunting deer.
I strictly use 130 SMKs in my .270.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Base of the neck,
in front of the shoulder, or (my favorite) angling toward you when they drop their head to browse. Bisect the shouldes, they all drop in their tracks. </div></div>
I guess you like your backstraps shredded then! lol that shot will ruin some good meat wont it?
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Barnes will work great for ya as well as the Nosler Partitions...
Barnes Triple Shock...
Nosler Partition...
</div></div>
I hope the above is not intended to demonstrate good performace from these bullets, because it is exactly why I don't use either of them any more. I've had much better results than that with SMK's and A max. Talk about 'pencil holing'. Shoot a Barnes bullet at longer ranges, especially a heavier one, and that is exactly what you are going to see (if you're lucky enough to find the animal at all).
I bet most, or all, of these 'premium hunting' bullet suppliers invest a lot more time, effort, and $ into marketing than they do into actually developing a bullet that works as well as they claim it does.
The truth is that there are way too many variables at play in terminal ballistics to make a bullet that will perform ideally under all, or even most, circumstances. IMHO manufacturers that claim their bullets perform under most or all conditions lack integrity.
My experience has been that every bullet is a compromise... Some bullets are more accurate than others. Some guns like one bullet better than another. Plastic tipped bullets and most thin jacketed hollowpoints expand well at long range and lower impact velocities, where heavy jacketed, all copper, and 'controlled expansion' bullets' do not always perform as well at longer ranges (as in don't open up enough, don't leave big enough wound channels, and don't transfer enough energy/shock). I've seen what I'll refer to as bullet failures or poor terminal performance from at least 5 models of so the called 'premium hunting' bullets, and so far zero failures from SMK's and Amax's (specifically 308 cal 175 and 190 SMK's, 338 cal 300 SMK's, and 243 cal 105 Amax's).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Barnes will work great for ya as well as the Nosler Partitions...
Barnes Triple Shock...
Nosler Partition...
I hope the above is not intended to demonstrate good performace from these bullets, because it is exactly why I don't use either of them any more. I've had much better results than that with SMK's and A max. Talk about 'pencil holing'. Shoot a Barnes bullet at longer ranges, especially a heavier one, and that is exactly what you are going to see (if you're lucky enough to find the animal at all).
I bet most, or all, of these 'premium hunting' bullet suppliers invest a lot more time, effort, and $ into marketing than they do into actually developing a bullet that works as well as they claim it does.
The truth is that there are way too many variables at play in terminal ballistics to make a bullet that will perform ideally under all, or even most, circumstances. IMHO manufacturers that claim their bullets perform under most or all conditions lack integrity.
My experience has been that every bullet is a compromise... Some bullets are more accurate than others. Some guns like one bullet better than another. Plastic tipped bullets and most thin jacketed hollowpoints expand well at long range and lower impact velocities, where heavy jacketed, all copper, and 'controlled expansion' bullets' do not always perform as well at longer ranges (as in don't open up enough, don't leave big enough wound channels, and don't transfer enough energy/shock). I've seen what I'll refer to as bullet failures or poor terminal performance from at least 5 models of so the called 'premium hunting' bullets, and so far zero failures from SMK's and Amax's (specifically 308 cal 175 and 190 SMK's, 338 cal 300 SMK's, and 243 cal 105 Amax's).
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Uhhh....Doesn't that violate the Geneva convention? Or are you talking non-military only?
EDIT: OK - I was all wet on this. First off, expanding bullets are controlled by Hague, not Geneva. And through the magic of loopholes, I guess, the military states that MK's are not hollow points designed for expansion, but the bullet design is rather for increased accruacy. Apparently intent somehow comes into play with this determination. Learn something everyday, I guess. </div></div>
And how would it look for the US military (probably Sierra's largest customer) if these 'open tip match bullets', used by US snipers, were touted by the manufacturer as being a great hunting bullets with lethal terminal effectivness? What if they where developing a reputation as such?...
Maybe put a disclaimer on the box to distance yourself, as a manufacturer, from this reputation??? Maybe...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Uhhh....Doesn't that violate the Geneva convention? Or are you talking non-military only?
EDIT: OK - I was all wet on this. First off, expanding bullets are controlled by Hague, not Geneva. And through the magic of loopholes, I guess, the military states that MK's are not hollow points designed for expansion, but the bullet design is rather for increased accruacy. Apparently intent somehow comes into play with this determination. Learn something everyday, I guess. </div></div>
And how would it look for the US military (probably Sierra's largest customer) if these 'open tip match bullets', used by US snipers, were touted by the manufacturer as being a great hunting bullets with lethal terminal effectivness? What if they where developing a reputation as such?...
Maybe put a disclaimer on the box to distance yourself, as a manufacturer, from this reputation??? Maybe...
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Barnes will work great for ya as well as the Nosler Partitions...
Barnes Triple Shock...
Nosler Partition...
</div></div>
Stop confronting people with facts and objective first hand data. You big meanine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Barnes will work great for ya as well as the Nosler Partitions...
Barnes Triple Shock...
Nosler Partition...
Stop confronting people with facts and objective first hand data. You big meanine
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Barnes will work great for ya as well as the Nosler Partitions...
Barnes Triple Shock...
Nosler Partition...
</div></div>
Stop confronting people with facts and objective first hand data. You big meanine
</div></div>
Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet.......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Barnes will work great for ya as well as the Nosler Partitions...
Barnes Triple Shock...
Nosler Partition...
Stop confronting people with facts and objective first hand data. You big meanine
</div></div>
Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet.......
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet....... </div></div>
Before you start runnin your man pleaser, maybe you should know a little about the bullets that were pictured...
They were 168 TSX's factory loads... Shots were 326 yards and 377 yards... Velocities were 2123 fps and 2049 fps respectfully at the animal... Give or take a few fps... With this particular factory load shots would be limited to 550 yards or less...
So then a Barnes bullet will limit a shot to a certain distance when most here are more than capable of making shots outside of the Barnes effective velocity envelope for expansion... Thats a WIN...
I can see the masses now, running out frantically searching for the Barnes "Holy Grail" bullet for their next long range hunting expedition...
Thus another reason to hunt with match bullets...
Nice call Turbo...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet....... </div></div>
Before you start runnin your man pleaser, maybe you should know a little about the bullets that were pictured...
They were 168 TSX's factory loads... Shots were 326 yards and 377 yards... Velocities were 2123 fps and 2049 fps respectfully at the animal... Give or take a few fps... With this particular factory load shots would be limited to 550 yards or less...
So then a Barnes bullet will limit a shot to a certain distance when most here are more than capable of making shots outside of the Barnes effective velocity envelope for expansion... Thats a WIN...
I can see the masses now, running out frantically searching for the Barnes "Holy Grail" bullet for their next long range hunting expedition...
Thus another reason to hunt with match bullets...
Nice call Turbo...
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet....... </div></div>
Before you start runnin your man pleaser, maybe you should know a little about the bullets that were pictured...
They were 168 TSX's factory loads... Shots were 326 yards and 377 yards... Velocities were 2123 fps and 2049 fps respectfully at the animal... Give or take a few fps... With this particular factory load shots would be limited to 550 yards or less...
So then a Barnes bullet will limit a shot to a certain distance when most here are more than capable of making shots outside of the Barnes effective velocity envelope for expansion... Thats a WIN...
I can see the masses now, running out frantically searching for the Barnes "Holy Grail" bullet for their next long range hunting expedition...
Thus another reason to hunt with match bullets...
Nice call Turbo... </div></div>
^^^^^WIN
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet....... </div></div>
Before you start runnin your man pleaser, maybe you should know a little about the bullets that were pictured...
They were 168 TSX's factory loads... Shots were 326 yards and 377 yards... Velocities were 2123 fps and 2049 fps respectfully at the animal... Give or take a few fps... With this particular factory load shots would be limited to 550 yards or less...
So then a Barnes bullet will limit a shot to a certain distance when most here are more than capable of making shots outside of the Barnes effective velocity envelope for expansion... Thats a WIN...
I can see the masses now, running out frantically searching for the Barnes "Holy Grail" bullet for their next long range hunting expedition...
Thus another reason to hunt with match bullets...
Nice call Turbo... </div></div>
^^^^^WIN
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet....... </div></div>
Before you start runnin your man pleaser, maybe you should know a little about the bullets that were pictured...
They were 168 TSX's factory loads... Shots were 326 yards and 377 yards... Velocities were 2123 fps and 2049 fps respectfully at the animal... Give or take a few fps... With this particular factory load shots would be limited to 550 yards or less...
So then a Barnes bullet will limit a shot to a certain distance when most here are more than capable of making shots outside of the Barnes effective velocity envelope for expansion... Thats a WIN...
I can see the masses now, running out frantically searching for the Barnes "Holy Grail" bullet for their next long range hunting expedition...
Thus another reason to hunt with match bullets...
Nice call Turbo... </div></div>
SLAP!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet....... </div></div>
Before you start runnin your man pleaser, maybe you should know a little about the bullets that were pictured...
They were 168 TSX's factory loads... Shots were 326 yards and 377 yards... Velocities were 2123 fps and 2049 fps respectfully at the animal... Give or take a few fps... With this particular factory load shots would be limited to 550 yards or less...
So then a Barnes bullet will limit a shot to a certain distance when most here are more than capable of making shots outside of the Barnes effective velocity envelope for expansion... Thats a WIN...
I can see the masses now, running out frantically searching for the Barnes "Holy Grail" bullet for their next long range hunting expedition...
Thus another reason to hunt with match bullets...
Nice call Turbo... </div></div>
SLAP!!!
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet....... </div></div>
Before you start runnin your man pleaser, maybe you should know a little about the bullets that were pictured...
They were 168 TSX's factory loads... Shots were 326 yards and 377 yards... Velocities were 2123 fps and 2049 fps respectfully at the animal... Give or take a few fps... With this particular factory load shots would be limited to 550 yards or less...
So then a Barnes bullet will limit a shot to a certain distance when most here are more than capable of making shots outside of the Barnes effective velocity envelope for expansion... Thats a WIN...
I can see the masses now, running out frantically searching for the Barnes "Holy Grail" bullet for their next long range hunting expedition...
Thus another reason to hunt with match bullets...
Nice call Turbo...</div></div>
Ouch
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes will tell you the minimum expansion velocity for the TSX is 1800 fps....if you can't figure where that is in your trajectory, and then responsibly cut yourself off a tad shorter than that for good conscience, then you have no business fooling with them in the fucking first place.
The TSX is a good bullet....... </div></div>
Before you start runnin your man pleaser, maybe you should know a little about the bullets that were pictured...
They were 168 TSX's factory loads... Shots were 326 yards and 377 yards... Velocities were 2123 fps and 2049 fps respectfully at the animal... Give or take a few fps... With this particular factory load shots would be limited to 550 yards or less...
So then a Barnes bullet will limit a shot to a certain distance when most here are more than capable of making shots outside of the Barnes effective velocity envelope for expansion... Thats a WIN...
I can see the masses now, running out frantically searching for the Barnes "Holy Grail" bullet for their next long range hunting expedition...
Thus another reason to hunt with match bullets...
Nice call Turbo...</div></div>
Ouch
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/berger-barnes-bullet-performance-1.php
Whoops
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/berger-barnes-bullet-performance-1.php
Whoops
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
I might be wrong but those bullet pics look an awful lot like the exact same photos I've seen posted before elsewhere with one of the TSX's having been recovered after killing two (hogs? Deer, mebbe?) bedded side by side via some excessively long range shot, and the poster bitched endlessly about "bullet failure" because it didn't expand picture perfect. Ironic that a recovered bullet from a dead animal somehow didn't kill it deader.
Like I said, I may be mistaken....really could care less what you hunt with, I'm happy to use TSX's. I don't have any recovered bullet pics tho' because they've all blown out the other side and gone. I can however post pics of some very leaky holes. Life is good, here.....
I might be wrong but those bullet pics look an awful lot like the exact same photos I've seen posted before elsewhere with one of the TSX's having been recovered after killing two (hogs? Deer, mebbe?) bedded side by side via some excessively long range shot, and the poster bitched endlessly about "bullet failure" because it didn't expand picture perfect. Ironic that a recovered bullet from a dead animal somehow didn't kill it deader.
Like I said, I may be mistaken....really could care less what you hunt with, I'm happy to use TSX's. I don't have any recovered bullet pics tho' because they've all blown out the other side and gone. I can however post pics of some very leaky holes. Life is good, here.....
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
Yes he has posted those pictures many times, everytime one of these stupid threads about my bullets are better than yours. The discussion always ends the same way; All bullets fail sometimes, whether they are TSX's or SMK's or Berger VLD's, if you hunt with them long enough, you will see a failure. That is not to say any one of those particular bullets is "bad".
What we can all take away from this is: Shoot whatever bullet you want and are most comfortable with, and hit them in the right spot. That is the most important thing of all, no wonder bullet will kill a deer quickly if it hits in the wrong place.
EHG has and does kill alot more animals than most people, and his experiences have demonstrated these points. It certainly is his business.
Yes he has posted those pictures many times, everytime one of these stupid threads about my bullets are better than yours. The discussion always ends the same way; All bullets fail sometimes, whether they are TSX's or SMK's or Berger VLD's, if you hunt with them long enough, you will see a failure. That is not to say any one of those particular bullets is "bad".
What we can all take away from this is: Shoot whatever bullet you want and are most comfortable with, and hit them in the right spot. That is the most important thing of all, no wonder bullet will kill a deer quickly if it hits in the wrong place.
EHG has and does kill alot more animals than most people, and his experiences have demonstrated these points. It certainly is his business.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
The 'failure' is from people who continually post this same question over-and-over again adnauseum.
The 'failure' is from people who continually post this same question over-and-over again adnauseum.
Re: why not hunt with 175 smk's
Reference The SH Hunting Forum ... replace "175SMK" with "168SMK" and you have the identical dicussion going on.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2331137#Post2331137
Reference The SH Hunting Forum ... replace "175SMK" with "168SMK" and you have the identical dicussion going on.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2331137#Post2331137
