Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

[bodywerks]

Now, I know its on the charts as an acceptable powder for 338LM, but I don't read about a lot of people using it - not even about how much it sucks? If it in fact does...
I bought some and have loaded up 3 rounds each, starting at the lowest charge and working up in 1 grain incriments to the Max load.
My motivator for choosing this powder is because the charts show it yielding the highest velocities at the lowest pressure. Right now, retumbo is not working in my rifle(savage 110ba). I am seeing heavy bolt lift at low powder charges(88-89 grains) and need to tap the bolt handle out almost every time. Figuring its a pressure problem, I figured the US 869 will either confirm it or eliminate it.
I'm just curious as to why no one is using it. I know that its not an extreme powder and that the charge range only changes velocity by like 150 fps total. Is it an accuracy or consistency thing?
Btw, the other components to my load development are the Berger 300 hybrids, hornady brass(I know its not lapua), and cci magnum primers.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, I know its on the charts as an acceptable powder for 338LM, but I don't read about a lot of people using it - not even about how much it sucks? If it in fact does...
I bought some and have loaded up 3 rounds each, starting at the lowest charge and working up in 1 grain incriments to the Max load.
My motivator for choosing this powder is because the charts show it yielding the highest velocities at the lowest pressure. Right now, retumbo is not working in my rifle(savage 110ba). I am seeing heavy bolt lift at low powder charges(88-89 grains) and need to tap the bolt handle out almost every time. Figuring its a pressure problem, I figured the US 869 will either confirm it or eliminate it.
I'm just curious as to why no one is using it. I know that its not an extreme powder and that the charge range only changes velocity by like 150 fps total. Is it an accuracy or consistency thing?
Btw, the other components to my load development are the Berger 300 hybrids, hornady brass(I know its not lapua), and cci magnum primers. </div></div>

First of all, velocity is not the end all, be all vis-a-vis accuracy. I always advise people to load their 338LM rounds to the range they intend to shoot most often. This preserves one's valuable throat and minimizes throat errosion.

There are plenty of readily available commercial cannister powders one often finds at their 'reloading store' that will work well. Retumbo, H-4831sc, H-1000, VV-170, VV-165, VV N-560, VV N-570, RL-22, RL-25 et al, will all shoot well with the 250s and 300s, but some will be better than others in any given weapon, with any given bullet weight.

Chris

 

[bodywerks]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Thanks. But why didn't you list the us 869? Have any experience with it? I know velocity is not the end all, and I honestly admit I haven't researched the Berger's ballistic performance past 1k. What I have looked at is the 300 smk and it appears to need to launch at nearly 2800 to stay supersonic out to a mile. This gun is intended to be for 1200 yards to a mile, and possibly beyond. So I do need to find an accuracy node at the upper end of the velocity limits.

 

[bohem]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Depending upon your barrel length you may or may not be able to utilize the extremely slow characteristics of the US 869.

What twist rate and barrel length are you working with?

 

[QRE23]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Rick at Alberta Tactical uses US869 alot w/300's. I've talked to him a fair amount about using US869 in our 338 Lapua improved and last I knew that was his #1 choice of powder.

It is VERY slow so I doubt it would work very well with anything less than 250's and may not even work well with those. It can be a bit on the dirty side and it takes a fair bit more of it, than say Retumbo.

For comparison only, with 300gr SMK's you use about 102ish grains of Retumbo with a 338 Lap Imp and 110+ grains of US869 with the same bullet.

IMHO, you would want atleast 28inches of barrel length when using this powder or you may not get the fps your looking for.

Hodgdon shows a starting load of 98.5gr and max of 104gr with US869 and the 300SMK in a standard 338 Lapua.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks. But why didn't you list the us 869? Have any experience with it? I know velocity is not the end all, and I honestly admit I haven't researched the Berger's ballistic performance past 1k. What I have looked at is the 300 smk and it appears to need to launch at nearly 2800 to stay supersonic out to a mile. This gun is intended to be for 1200 yards to a mile, and possibly beyond. So I do need to find an accuracy node at the upper end of the velocity limits. </div></div>

I don't generally see 869 at my local places and I went straight to H-4831sc, H-1000, VV-165 and VV-170 for my 1:12" Sako and the 250s I stick with, back fours years. I've since acquired some RL-25, but frankly, those four powders do just fine for me out to 1k. They also seem to be, along with Retumbo and RL-25, the six go-to powders for this caliber with either the 250s or 300s.

I've seen people using RL-22 and the 4350s, but I just don't think that they're ideal, but YMMV.

Chris

 

[bodywerks]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Bohem, its a 9" twist barrel at 29" overall, but that's including a 3" brake. I would be interested to know the barrel used by hodgdon to test the 338LM, but they show 2677fps with 104 grains of the us869, and I assume that's at or near sea level. I have a chrony and I intend to use it.

 

[bodywerks]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

I never did chrony the retumbo loads though, and maybe I was getting much higher velocities for a given charge? I guess I will chrony some at the book minimum and see if my velocities match or are close. Also, these bergers are a good bit longer than the smks and have more contact area with the barrel which I am sure affects velocity and pressure???

 

[QRE23]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

The Berger 300's have pretty consistently been shooting faster fps than the 300SMK's with the same given powder charge.

 

[QRE23]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Even though the Bergers 300gr is about 100thou longer overall, it has about 75thou less baring surface. As well as a thinner jacket.

 

[bohem]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

BW-

I asked about the twist for stability reasons, your 9 shouldn't have any issues.

I asked about the barrel length for burn rate reasons, and at 29" from bolt face to the nose of a 3" brake you're somewhere in the 26" range. My feeling is that it's a mite short for such a slow powder.

The overbore ratio of a 338LM is over 1200, I know this site has a "short is better" hard on lately but with a high overbore ratio it's a total waste. The overbore on a 308 or 223 is in the 550-620 range and all the powder in the case has burned and reached optimal pressure by the short lengths guys are pushing.

In an effort not to get long winded about the off topic, let me leave it there, but a 26" 338LM with heavy bullets and SLOWSLOWSLOW powder is going to make fireballs and not velocity.

You can see how long the Hodgdon test barrel is by "print preview" the data listed on the website. The barrel length is listed on the preview.

 

[bodywerks]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Hmmm...I understand the barrel length vs burn rate concerns. And you may very well be right about fire out of the muzzle. Testing will tell I guess.
FWIW, thanks for the hint on finding the rifle used for their data. Interestingly, they used a 24" barrel:
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1

 

[MIKEONE]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

@ Bodywerks

I have the same gun and same bolt lift prob (But only the very end of the opening)

Hornady brass, win primers, 93gr retumbo 300 smk 2770 avg.

Im gonna shoot this pound up and mabye find something different.

Mike

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Currently after 6K rounds-with most loaded using RL25. I have switched to Retumbo with US869 a very good substitute. IMO, there published MAX loads are too hot.

Stick is a AI AWSM with both the factory 27" 1/11" twist and a Bartlein 1/9.5 25" (GAP chambered). Chrono numbers are just that numbers- IMO, you HAVE to go to the range-shoot and use ballistic tables with your observed performance to really fine tune your dope.

Its not easy to get a 300grain bullet over 2800fps in a 338LM-that is a MAX load. If you want to shoot at the mile-I think you need to bring a little bit more cartridge to the table.That's not to say it hasn't and can't be done. But you only have so much case capacity and regardless of powder we are talking pushing the limits of the cartridge.

 

[bodywerks]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

If I launch the berger 300's at 2700-2750 they will stay supersonic WELL past a mile. From what people are saying, the bergers tend to launch faster than the 300 smks for the same charge weight as it is. And Hodgdon's load data was done near sealevel with a 24" barrel and they show 2677fps with the 300smk's - I have a 26" barrel.Add that to the fact that most of my shooting will be done at 3,000ASL and there is plenty of juice left at 1760 yards.

 

[WAMBO]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

I concur with bodywerks, the 300gr Berger with a BC of .818 launched at 2750 fps ( which is where my 338 LM likes them )will be supersonic out to 2000yds at 2,300 ASL according to JBM.
My load is 91grs of Retumbo, haven't tried US 869 but I do have some so there may be some testing in the near future.

Wayne aka WAMBO

 

[The Shottist]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rick at Alberta Tactical uses US869 alot w/300's. I've talked to him a fair amount about using US869 in our 338 Lapua improved and last I knew that was his #1 choice of powder.

It is VERY slow so I doubt it would work very well with anything less than 250's and may not even work well with those. It can be a bit on the dirty side and it takes a fair bit more of it, than say Retumbo.

For comparison only, with 300gr SMK's you use about 102ish grains of Retumbo with a 338 Lap Imp and 110+ grains of US869 with the same bullet. </div></div>
The max charge is 104 grains for the 300gr SMK
Max charge for the 250gr is 108 grains
I am working up a load with US869 for my .338 Lapua

 

[bodywerks]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

You are correct. Samson was referring to the ackley improved lapua magnum, which adds about 10 grains. Once Berger gets these hybrids to handle higher velocities I may be doing a 338lmai myself...
work's been keeping me busy so I still haven't had a chance to shoot the reloads yet but will next weekend.

 

[QRE23]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

That is correct 338 Lapua Improved.

 

[bodywerks]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Bummer...
Well, the us 869 got rid of my heavy bolt lift problems, but also seems to have eliminated any hopes for any kind of accuracy - I'm talking like 3-5" 3 shot groups at 100 yards!!! Now, it could have been because I had the bag under the pistol grip instead of the butt(bag was too small), but I can't see that causing that crappy a group???
Interestingly, the velocities I was showing with the 300 bergers were right inline with what hodgdon's chart shows for the 300 smk. My low charge velocity was about 2560 and the high was 2675. I haven't completely given up on the powder but I'm not encouraged at the moment.
Another point of interest is I loaded up some more retumbo loads - 3 each at 87, 88, and 89 grains. And I don't know if its a coincidence, but the groups were WAY better - but I also found something to raise the bag enough to put it under the butt instead of the grip. The 87 trainers printed a sub-moa group but at only 2530fps its a little slower than I want for 1 mile shooting. The good news is that there was no extraction problem. 88 grains printed a 1-1.2" group and the bolt lift was still easy. At 89 grains, the group was about the same but the bolt lift started to get hard, and the velocity was only about 2585...
I'm thinking its still a brass issue. I bet I can get more velocity out of the lapua brass...
Maybe I'm asking too much of the lapua magnum? Maybe its already time to look for a rechamber/re-barrel to the lapua improved? And maybe a 28-30" barrel...

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Not to go off point, but you're having sticky bolt problems at the lower end of the scale?

Before my rifle arrived in '06 and while Ebay was allowing the sale of brass and bullets, I picked some loaded ammo (along with some components) and if I remember right, it's 94.5grs of Retumbo under a mollied 300 SMK with CCI 34 milspec primers in new Lapua brass. I shot a box of 20 in my 1:12" Sako one day for shits and giggles and while it grouped at around 2", it's not a super stout load.

Hodgdon's site, which didn't have any 338LM data back then, lists 94.0 as a compressed charge, but at 53,400 CUP, so not a super high pressure load.

You're getting sticky bolts at 89grs, so either you're shooting in super hot weather, your chamber is undersized or you're not getting much spring back on your brass and it's time to ditch it?

Keep us posted, Chris

 

[McLarenross]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

I seem to remember hearing people having issues with the Savage 338LM chambers being very tight and causing sticky bolt lift with even factory ammo. Might look into that.

 

[bodywerks]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

It's arizona. It's been around 90F every time I shot it.
Chris, Yes, at the higher end of the Retumbo powder charge I needed to punch the brass out. But the max charge of US 869 had hardly any heavy bolt lift - a little heavy, but I didn't need to tap the handle. It was/is brand new factory brass that I prepped with a Redding match body die and bushing neck sizer die prior to loading. However, it is Hornady brass.
Ross, I will keep the tight chamber thing in mind, but I still think its a brass issue. If the Lapua brass doesn't fix it I'll get on the horn with Savage.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

Does the Hornady brass have less case capacity? I first heard of US 869 from some palma guys I shoot with. They love the US 869 in the .338 TRG-42s. I also talked to a rep at Hodgdon and the rep talked to me for about 30 mins on how well it works with the 300grn SMK and that it works the best for the CNC turned bullets. He said that CNC turned bullets works best if you load them like VLDs(close to the lands) and that powder is almost touching the base. Does anyone have any insight or recipes on using CNC turned projectiles and US 869?

 

[Paipau]

My load is vihta N570 88.5grs 300gr Scenar 2757fps O.A.L 3.710 SD 6 and ES 3

 

[Xathane]

Re: Why not US 869 for 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, I know its on the charts as an acceptable powder for 338LM, but I don't read about a lot of people using it - not even about how much it sucks? If it in fact does...
I bought some and have loaded up 3 rounds each, starting at the lowest charge and working up in 1 grain incriments to the Max load.
My motivator for choosing this powder is because the charts show it yielding the highest velocities at the lowest pressure. Right now, retumbo is not working in my rifle(savage 110ba). I am seeing heavy bolt lift at low powder charges(88-89 grains) and need to tap the bolt handle out almost every time. Figuring its a pressure problem, I figured the US 869 will either confirm it or eliminate it.
I'm just curious as to why no one is using it. I know that its not an extreme powder and that the charge range only changes velocity by like 150 fps total. Is it an accuracy or consistency thing?
Btw, the other components to my load development are the Berger 300 hybrids, hornady brass(I know its not lapua), and cci magnum primers. </div></div>

First of all, velocity is not the end all, be all vis-a-vis accuracy. I always advise people to load their 338LM rounds to the range they intend to shoot most often. This preserves one's valuable throat and minimizes throat errosion.

There are plenty of readily available commercial cannister powders one often finds at their 'reloading store' that will work well. Retumbo, H-4831sc, H-1000, VV-170, VV-165, VV N-560, VV N-570, RL-22, RL-25 et al, will all shoot well with the 250s and 300s, but some will be better than others in any given weapon, with any given bullet weight.

Chris

 

[Xathane]

Tried some US 869 today in -6°C/21°F out of a brand new 338LM Barrett MRAD 26" bbl 9.4 twist.

Tested 100,101,102,103,104,105gr.
3.600 COAL with 1F Lapua brass, GMM210, and 300gr SMK. US869 Bottle states max charge of 104gr = 2677fps. I was getting 2580-2601 at 105gr.

No pressure signs at all and the 5 rounds with 105gr grouped the best. All rounds touching at 100yd.

Curious if I could/should perhaps keep loading a few more batches at .5 or .3 increments or is it risky business as come summer time in 30-35°C/86-95°F temps I could experience dangerous pressure.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

I like US869, it works well in my TRG 42 with 300 SMKs and 300 A-tips.

 

[Dogtown]

My load is vihta N570 88.5grs 300gr Scenar 2757fps O.A.L 3.710 SD 6 and ES 3

Ten year necropost. Impressive!

 

[Aftermath]

Ten year necropost. Impressive!

You replied to a 4 year old necropost about being a necropost...

 

[Dogtown]

I'm really into recursion

 

[louu]

Where's the memo about when to post in what age of a thread and all that stuff? If it's already been talked about you can't post a new thread and if its already been talked about you can't post in an old thread? Am I getting this right?

 

[Dogtown]

No rule. But it can sometimes be odd when suddenly someone responds to a very old thread, hence the "necropost" comments, especially considering a lot of people often don't realize they're responding to old threads. In the past it's often been a sign of a new member trying to rapidly meet the minimum posts number required before selling gear in the PX.

 

[Aftermath]

And with the onslaught of scammers doing all sorts of nefarious shit to steal our money, the Fedbois trying to gain some street cred, and now we also have AI bots out up to who knows what..."new" members posting to age old threads will ALWAYS raise an alarm.

 

[secondofangle2]

His "necro"post had none of the hallmarks of fraudulence