Sidearms & Scatterguns Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?

I Am Hero

Sergeant
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Minuteman
Nov 29, 2011
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Grand Rapids, MI
I saw a guy locally had Black Talon 40 and 45 ammo for sale and he was asking $1000 for a case a 500. I thought that was absolutely insane so I looked up some more and saw that that ammo does indeed cost a ton.

I was wondering why you would ever want to buy that ammo. Personally for me a Golden Saber, XTP, etc seems like it would do just great doing its intended purpose.

For what reason would you spend so much money on a pistol round? I would expect something of that price for my IMI 50 AE Deagle and not a 45 or 40.
 
Re: Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?

the black talon ammo is now a collectors item. they don't make it labeled black talon anymore. The ammo back in the day coat the same as any other JHP round. If you want to run a black talon type bullet look at the Winchester Range T-series.
 
Re: Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?



<span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">Ignore that expensive ammunition. Deep penetration is the important characteristic in defensive roles for pistol calibers 9m/m to .45ACP. Destruction, when comparing and contrasting full metal jacket pistol projectiles to hollow point profiled projectiles designed hoping for expansion, is not consequentially distinguished. There is not enough difference between their destruction performance to warrant the higher cost of the round and to risk inadequate penetration.

This makes sense. But if not, there has been testing and research that bore this out. Also, when I was a smaller kid ( ; ) I was interested in shooting things....everything I could except I got in trouble for shooting a hole in the cow water trough with my something or another brand .22 Long Rifle single shot. I shot high-power rifle competition at metal targets, metallic silhouette at various grades of steel; 357 Magnum using all kinds of bullets but especially 158 grain lead, 125 grain JHP, 170 grain Sierra FMJ at concrete, phone books, wet and dry, sand bags, deer, feral varmints such as coyotes; I was always digging for the bullet to see what happened. Lead penetrated well. It didn't peel or fragment as much as hp or fmj. But round nose lead is unattractive and not cool these days.

The 1986 FBI Miami shootout was a gun battle that occurred on April 11, 1986 in an unincorporated region of Miami-Dade County in south Florida between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers. During the firefight, FBI Special Agents Jerry L. Dove and Benjamin P. Grogan were killed, while five other agents were wounded. The two robbery suspects, William Russell Matix and Michael Lee Platt, were also killed.
The incident is infamous in FBI history and is well-studied in law enforcement circles. Despite outnumbering the suspects 4 to 1, the agents found themselves pinned down by rifle fire and unable to respond effectively. Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the firefight, Platt fought on and continued to injure and kill agents. This incident led to the introduction of more powerful handguns in the FBI and many police departments around the United States. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout]

Evidence revealed, from the Miami shootout between eight agents and two perpetrators, that penetration is the important matter in low/medium velocity handgun ammunition such as 9mm. I would extend that to 40 S&W and especially 45acp. Notice I am not referring to higher velocity handgun rounds such as magnums, for example

I did not research the kind of bullet fired by agents, but we may all agree the bullets were probably hollow point.

Starched shirt corporate bosses of ammunition and gun makers want you to believe expensive hollow point bullets are necessary. They are not really all that. Unless its +P+JHP, grab full metal jacket or solid lead. FMJ or lead, fired accurately, i.e.; having honed one's shooting skills and not relying on super duper fluffy pretty bullets to do what you can not do, will get the job done if it can get done.

Its my opinion that all police cruisers should be equipped with an AR15 chambered for 7.62x39, at best, a shotgun with slugs and buckshot, in addition to the individual officers' hi-cap semi-automatic pistols in a caliber he and she can handle. One accurate 9mm bullet is clearly more consequential than a mag of +P+JHP Super Hi Vel Red Hell 40's that miss.

Shoot high velocity FMJ. That is my opinion based on my experience and what I think I know</span>
 
Re: Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?

Skip the Black Talon's

Look at the following;

Winchester Ranger
Remington Golden Saber
Federal Hydro-Shock
Speer Gold Dot

While the FMJ's will offer penetration, over penatration should be a main concern, FMJ's will over penetrate.

When I worked as an LEO we studied the the FBI shootout mentioned. To this day, numerous agencies have yet to learn from the FBI-Miami Dade Shootout. Look no further than the LAPD shootout, again bank robbers, again, LEO's out gunned.

Just a few years back Mac 90's and SKS's were hitting the streets at $95 to $125 per plus all the ammo you could carry. Compare the 7.62x39 to the 9/40/45 on your hip.

High Cap 40's with multiple magazines, 12 gauge shotgun and a carbine of some sorts should be in every squad car.
 
Re: Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skip the Black Talon's

Look at the following;

Winchester Ranger
Remington Golden Saber
Federal Hydro-Shock
Speer Gold Dot

While the FMJ's will offer penetration, over penatration should be a main concern, FMJ's will over penetrate.

When I worked as an LEO we studied the the FBI shootout mentioned. To this day, numerous agencies have yet to learn from the FBI-Miami Dade Shootout. Look no further than the LAPD shootout, again bank robbers, again, LEO's out gunned.

Just a few years back Mac 90's and SKS's were hitting the streets at $95 to $125 per plus all the ammo you could carry. Compare the 7.62x39 to the 9/40/45 on your hip.

High Cap 40's with multiple magazines, 12 gauge shotgun and a carbine of some sorts should be in every squad car.</div></div>

All good points.

The short answer to the OP is that people buy old stocks of Black Talon because of the 'cool factor' of having ammunition that was supposedly banned and was 'too dangerous to be sold'. It's not exactly bad ammunition, and certainly far better than FMJ, but it's essentially twenty years out of date, both in literal terms of "freshness" and the technology itself behind the bullet construction.

If you want a solid performing personal defense / duty load, look at what the major agencies are using. Speer Gold Dot, Winchester PDX/SXT, Federal HST, Remington Golden Saber, and Hornady TAP/Critical Duty are the most common choices by far. The exotic stuff ranges from acceptable performance to utter shit, and you'll pay dearly for such.

Having done a limited amount of testing with various .45 ACP loads, I personally choose to carry Federal HSTs whenever possible, with Gold Dot Short Barrel for my 3" 1911. Unparalleled expansion, solid penetration, reliable functioning, and I've noticed virtually zero setback after dozens and dozens of chambering cycles. It's a pain to find, but would be my preference over Hydra-Shoks if given the choice.
 
Re: Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?

Black Talon is the 90's precursor to today's modern Winchester Ranger LE ammo. Buying Black Talon is essentially spending 3-4x the amount of money for a inferior product. Buy the modern stuff by the case, you can get 500 rounds of RA9T or RA9B for about $225.
 
Re: Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?

They discontinued it due to marketing, there was a lot of misunderstanding and stigma with this ammo. I have heard all kinds of crazy things,from being able to penetrate bullet proof vests because of a Teflon coating, to having claws that expose during expansion.

Truth of the matter, it was bad press and claims like this that caused Winchester to change the name and drop the black coating. People buy it for.the collectibility, but as mentioned there are better options out there for cheaper.
 
Re: Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They discontinued it due to marketing, there was a lot of misunderstanding and stigma with this ammo. I have heard all kinds of crazy things,from being able to penetrate bullet proof vests because of a Teflon coating, to having claws that expose during expansion.

Truth of the matter, it was bad press and claims like this that caused Winchester to change the name and drop the black coating. People buy it for.the collectibility, but as mentioned there are better options out there for cheaper. </div></div>

Winchester Ranger SXT and LE versions still have the "claws."

(Photo found on m4carbine.net)
4fxtao.jpg
 
Re: Why Shoot Black Talon Ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They discontinued it due to marketing, there was a lot of misunderstanding and stigma with this ammo. I have heard all kinds of crazy things,from being able to penetrate bullet proof vests because of a Teflon coating, to having claws that expose during expansion.

Truth of the matter, it was bad press and claims like this that caused Winchester to change the name and drop the black coating. People buy it for.the collectibility, but as mentioned there are better options out there for cheaper. </div></div>

Well Said...The whole penetrating Bullet Resistant vests stigma was the entire buying frenzy of the "Black Talon" ammo series...Like all the above stated...It is overpriced hollowpoints.
BTW, I have some and its for sale now....LMMFAO