Why the Controversey over Creedmoor 6.5?

[river251]

I've been reading a lot, would like to get into long range shooting of some sort. Crazy I know but my underlying motivation is if things went south somehow, I could defend my ranch and family from a long ways away. Will never happen I know but it would give me great comfort to have a precision rifle on the wall knowing I am able to use it. In the meantime practicing will be a blast.

So, the 6.5 and 6 mm cartridges are very popular now. But some older guys on youtube say these target rounds are not suitable for hitting alive things. So if it came to it, would the 6.5 and 6 cartridges really be good for defense against bad guys? I read that the US Military is trying out 6.5 Creedmoor for its snipers. Are there different 6.5 Creedmoors with differently constructed bullets?

Obviously I'm a beginner, never had a centerfire yet. Any wisdom that might help me choose the right caliber for me would be appreciated.

Examples:

Real Gunsmith -- gotta respect this guy at least a little







GunBlue -- bit of a blowhard but knowledgeable sometimes
(go to 32:40)


But Hickock45 likes it:
https://www.full30.com/watch/MDA5NTc4/savage-model-10-ba-stealth-65-creedmoor (go to 17:25)

 

[Huskydriver]

308 is easy to find when the shtf. It's not going anywhere fast ? but it is not popular in today's shooting games. I will always have a 308 in the safe but it's not my first choice for long range target interdiction.

6.5cm shines because it shoots flatter for less recoil than a 308. The 6.5 will actually carry more energy on target than most run of the mill factory 308 loads assuming you don't reload.

 

[EternalNoob]

Never having shot at anything that can shoot back I can only offer this:

- I've read that military policy is more concerned with wounding than killing. A wounded soldier takes 2 additional soldiers to drag him back to the medic, so that's 3 out of action. But that's the military.

- at ranges beyond 800 yards, and definitely beyond 1000 yards, all other things being equal, I would want a heaver, faster bullet if I was shooting at something other than paper.

- hitting with a 6.5 CM is probably preferable to missing with a .300 wing mag.

 

[cleric]

So don’t know those guys but will give some thoughts on the issue...

there is two things at play here
1) the capability of the round
2) the capability of the bullet
For this analysis I will use 308 and 6.5creed as they are similar cartridges

in regards to the second one, I can use the same technology bullet in either caliber. so that is not a factor per se, however sectional density comes into play. That is a Ratio of bullet weight to diameter. generally bigger calibers have higher sectional density, which in theory leads to more penetration. However the smaller calibers generally have a higher velocity and bc. Would you rather have higher sectional density or higher bc/FPS. It’s a toss up

in regards to the first one. The creed and 308 are similar designs. The 308 shoots a heavier bullet Which translates to more energy but a creed is more likely to hit its target due to less wind drift. Would you rather have higher energy or higher hit chance?

 

[TxWelder35]

That last guy is the biggest fudd I’ve ever heard.

6.5cm is better than 308 in every single way. Flatter shooting, less wind drift, carries more energy.

6mm= 243 diameter. 243win has killed plenty of things.

 

[Matches Malone]

If we are talking about terminal performace, the issue has been shady advertisement and a cult like following. First the creedmoors were never intended to be a 1000y round. It was literally designed as a 500-800y cartridge period. The bullshit that it has less drift and drop than a .300 win mag is a stretch, comparing the best the 6.5 has to offer vs the worst a .300wm has to offer.

As far as killing, if you’re killing within the max effective range the cartridge was designed for, just like the .308 then you would be just fine. If you we’re going to shoot a elk at say 900y, and you’re not using something big and heavy that doesn’t end in magnum, I’d reckon you dun fucked up. Especially if you end up hitting that shoulder plate.

edit;
it doesn’t have “less wind drift” it just gets to where it’s going faster being less affected by wind and as a result does carry its energy further for being lighter. If you read the hornady website and compare the .308 178gr eld-x VS the 143 eldx in 6.5 creed, the .308 has more energy on paper, and in real life, the numbers will change for a variety of reasons, but are not so dynamically different that it’s worth arguing about.

 

[Long Range 338]

So the Real Gunsmith guy is an old timer from Wyoming who has seen lots of animals wounded and run off to die without being found. His main clientele is hunters and he is of course throwing hunting ethics into the conversation. This has nothing to do with a precision rifle that would not be used on 4 legged critters. The 6.5CM is a wonderfully flat round and capable for defense. If you want to use for hunting just respect the animal being hunted and use properly constructed bullets, using your own capabilities and conscience as your guide.

 

[spife7980]

The first guy, Shelby, is old and cool but a bit behind the times. I’m not gonna watch the others. There is zero real controversy.

 

[MK20]

Stay off YouTube for any serious advice for how to really build and run a setup for 2 way range purposes.

Take a class from Frank ( @lowlight ) and use a good 6.5 Creed or .308 rifle. Buy a Tikka CTR with a good scope if you want and you will be set up ok. The class is absolutely worth the money.
For general defensive use it is hard to beat a AR15, WITH good optics. If you don’t have one, get that first before the bolt gun.

Seriously, watch YouTube for fun, not advice on how to do serious business with a gun. Most folks who really know won’t put that type of detailed advice out there for free to the masses of morons who frequent YouTube.

 

[MK20]

Also, remember that small arms don’t really kill that many people in gunfights.
HE, CAS, MGs, and precision rifle fire kill. M4 type small arms arms help fix the enemy until more lethal weapons systems can be brought to bear.

 

[flyright]

Yes. Big controversy. LOL... Maybe because it's such a new caliber. LOL again.

 

[txguero]

So don’t know those guys but will give some thoughts on the issue...

there is two things at play here
1) the capability of the round
2) the capability of the bullet
For this analysis I will use 308 and 6.5creed as they are similar cartridges

in regards to the second one, I can use the same technology bullet in either caliber. so that is not a factor per se, however sectional density comes into play. That is a Ratio of bullet weight to diameter. generally bigger calibers have higher sectional density, which in theory leads to more penetration. However the smaller calibers generally have a higher velocity and bc. Would you rather have higher sectional density or higher bc/FPS. It’s a toss up

in regards to the first one. The creed and 308 are similar designs. The 308 shoots a heavier bullet Which translates to more energy but a creed is more likely to hit its target due to less wind drift. Would you rather have higher energy or higher hit chance?

A lot of times higher BC cartridges do have higher sectional density though as long and sleek is more aerodynamic. For instance a 147gr 6.5 bullet has a higher SD than a 147gr 308 bullet. Same weight but the bigger caliber has a lower SD. Within the same cartridge family (ie the 308 based cartridges) typically the smaller calibers are gonna have higher SD, just with lighter bullets.

 

[txguero]

I think the main controversy, especially with gunblue and the old bearded dude, is that 6.5 Creedmoor does the same thing others have done for years, (6.5x55, 260 Rem). Some people have a hard time accepting change, especially when it is accompanied by heavy marketing. Can’t deny the creedmoor’s merits though and I think the market has caught on for a reason. If you buy one, buy with confidence.

 

[BadAccountant]

I've been reading a lot, would like to get into long range shooting of some sort. Crazy I know but my underlying motivation is if things went south somehow, I could defend my ranch and family from a long ways away. Will never happen I know but it would give me great comfort to have a precision rifle on the wall knowing I am able to use it. In the meantime practicing will be a blast.

So, the 6.5 and 6 mm cartridges are very popular now. But some older guys on youtube say these target rounds are not suitable for hitting alive things. So if it came to it, would the 6.5 and 6 cartridges really be good for defense against bad guys? I read that the US Military is trying out 6.5 Creedmoor for its snipers. Are there different 6.5 Creedmoors with differently constructed bullets?

Obviously I'm a beginner, never had a centerfire yet. Any wisdom that might help me choose the right caliber for me would be appreciated.

Examples:

Real Gunsmith -- gotta respect this guy at least a little







GunBlue -- bit of a blowhard but knowledgeable sometimes
(go to 32:40)


But Hickock45 likes it:
https://www.full30.com/watch/MDA5NTc4/savage-model-10-ba-stealth-65-creedmoor (go to 17:25)

Randy's gripe deals with people using 6.5 as a long range hunting round on big game. Will it kill the animal? Probably. Should YOU be taking those shots at distance at an animal that deserves a quick humane death? Probably not.

 

[The Average Shooter]

I mean I look at it this way, in a defensive setting you most likely aren’t going to be shooting out anywhere near 1,000 yards. In a Red Dawn SHTF you would probably be <500 yards honestly. So I look at it this way as long as your caliber is over 1,000 ft. Lbs of energy at the distance you want to engage targets you should be able to drop them. As for 6.5CM vs .308 I’m going with 6.5CM for being a flatter shooter and lighter recoil. But either will serve anyone well, .308 has dropped many before 6.5 was introduced to the game.

 

[river251]

Stay off YouTube for any serious advice for how to really build and run a setup for 2 way range purposes.

Take a class from Frank ( @lowlight ) and use a good 6.5 Creed or .308 rifle. Buy a Tikka CTR with a good scope if you want and you will be set up ok. The class is absolutely worth the money.
For general defensive use it is hard to beat a AR15, WITH good optics. If you don’t have one, get that first before the bolt gun.

Seriously, watch YouTube for fun, not advice on how to do serious business with a gun. Most folks who really know won’t put that type of detailed advice out there for free to the masses of morons who frequent YouTube.

Do you have a link or something for Frank's class? When I click on that I get some sort of social media thing. Maybe Twitter? Unless you call this social media, I don't do social media. Thanks.

 

[1moaoff]

YouTube is a joke...
Honestly any precision rifle will have limits
Being able to hit a target is my priority over potential terminal damage. For you scenario 223,224,6mm, 6.5mm, 308. Take your pick.
This from a guy who has 22's to 50's

 

[Bakwa]

So the Real Gunsmith guy is an old timer from Wyoming who has seen lots of animals wounded and run off to die without being found. His main clientele is hunters and he is of course throwing hunting ethics into the conversation. This has nothing to do with a precision rifle that would not be used on 4 legged critters. The 6.5CM is a wonderfully flat round and capable for defense. If you want to use for hunting just respect the animal being hunted and use properly constructed bullets, using your own capabilities and conscience as your guide.

If you want to hunt [or kill something as quickly and humanly as possible] than listen to this advice above.^ I've killed medium sized game [deer] from 40yds to 250yds with Hornady Precision Hunter 6.5CM factory loads, and the deer have never done more than two hop-skips after they've been hit.
If engaging people, when you hit they will drop/stumble, crawl/limp off, and definitely be deterred from continuing any type of fight. It's not like they're zombies who will keep encroaching on your position even after they've been shot up...

 

[kozzman555]

For shooting small-medium game and potentially using a gun for a SHTF scenario, if you're looking for a gun that can do both the best, I think you're in the wrong section of the forum. A good/quality AR-10 in 308 is going to be able to do the job of both, and do it as good or better for both scenario's than any bolt action rifle.

Let's be real though, you're not going to hold the government at bay by yourself or even with one or two other people at your ranch if it came down to it. You don't have the firepower nor the amount of people to patrol or provide good 24/7 overwatch that covers all avenues of approach. If the government REALLY wants to overrun a position, it's going to happen. If you are more concerned with wild bands of raiders coming at you in a SHTF scenario, a semi auto is going to serve you better than a bolt action rifle, especially if it's a relatively target rich environment (danger of being overrun). You can get sub-moa AR-10's if you want to buy them fairly easily (not cheaply).

As far as hunting goes (animal or human), shot placement is a heck of a lot more important than the relatively minor differences between 6.5CR or 308 for terminal ballistics. You are probably not going to be taking shots past 500-600 yards when hunting or even in a SHTF scenario.

There's always "controversy" about nearly anything when people online are looking at two different things. I bet I could start a fight by asking people if they like blue ink or blank ink pens better. 6.5Cr seems like a superior round, except that I know I can get black tip 308 and I don't know about that availability for 6.5Cr. In addition, 308 is going to be far more common (for now, until/unless the military adopts the 6.5Cr as their replacement round for 556), so it'll be easier to source in a SHTF scenario. One last thing you'll want to look at is what I call gun/ammo commonality. If there are any neighbors or friends or family that you would band with during any bad situations, what type of ammo are they running? My next gun will be in 308 as that's what my father has and what my brother's AR-10 will be chambered in. We all run 9mm handguns and have 5.556 AR's as well. That way, when we stock up on ammo, we can all use it and not have to have anything different to sort through. Just some thoughts on your post.

 

[-Time-]

If your only goal is defending your home from targets that might shoot back, you should be looking at semi autos. Inside of 800yards I’d take my 18” 5.56 spr before I grabbed a bolt gun in any caliber. Fire rate and being “accurate enough” is what’s going to matter. Bad guys aren’t going to be able to tell the difference between a .25moa bolt gun or a 1moa gas gun as long as they’re getting hit.

If you want to get into long range shooting, I think bolt guns are better options than semi autos. The large frame (.308/6.5cm) ARs especially are difficult to shoot well. If you’re only looking at defending yourself then that’s a very different problem and semi autos are the solution.

As for 6.5cm vs .308, terminally it’s a moot point. I don’t think there’s any scenario where the same shot placement that would kill with a .308 wouldn’t kill with a 6.5cm. We’re not shooting moose or other big game that might require busting through a large shoulder to get to vitals (if you were hunting big game at long range you’d probably pick a round bigger than either of those anyways). Humans are more like deer sized game. When hunting we also care about ethics. No offense but if I’m defending myself from someone trying to kill me, I don’t really give a shit how ethically I stop the bad guy, I just need to stop him. I highly doubt any of the guys in your videos would recommend hunting deer with .223. Yet I’ve killed literally 20x more deer with a 77gr tipped match king, and good heart/lung shots than I have with 300win mag. Never had one run more than 25yards. A good fragmenting bullet into the heart/lungs will kill you no matter what cartridge it came from. Coincidentally the farthest deer I’ve ever had run was shot at 100 yards through the heart with a .300wm and 225gr ELD-M’s.

At the end of the day though, terminal performance doesn’t matter if you can’t get a round on target. A hit with 6.5cm means infinitely more than a miss with a .50bmg, and across the board 6.5cm has a better hit probability than .308.

 

[Hondo64d]

I've been reading a lot, would like to get into long range shooting of some sort. Crazy I know but my underlying motivation is if things went south somehow, I could defend my ranch and family from a long ways away. Will never happen I know but it would give me great comfort to have a precision rifle on the wall knowing I am able to use it. In the meantime practicing will be a blast.

So, the 6.5 and 6 mm cartridges are very popular now. But some older guys on youtube say these target rounds are not suitable for hitting alive things. So if it came to it, would the 6.5 and 6 cartridges really be good for defense against bad guys? I read that the US Military is trying out 6.5 Creedmoor for its snipers. Are there different 6.5 Creedmoors with differently constructed bullets?

Obviously I'm a beginner, never had a centerfire yet. Any wisdom that might help me choose the right caliber for me would be appreciated.

Examples:

Real Gunsmith -- gotta respect this guy at least a little







GunBlue -- bit of a blowhard but knowledgeable sometimes
(go to 32:40)


But Hickock45 likes it:
https://www.full30.com/watch/MDA5NTc4/savage-model-10-ba-stealth-65-creedmoor (go to 17:25)

The self proclaimed “Real Gunsmith” is among the last I would listen to in anything firearms related.

I much prefer to shoot the 6.5 Creedmoor to the .308. Less recoil, better performance in the wind makes it easier to hit with.
That being said, from a logistics standpoint, .308 might be the smart play should your source of ammo degrade to what‘s “laying around.” They are also very easy to get to group well. Just gonna have to decide what’s most important to you.

John

 

[MCHOG]

Do you have a link or something for Frank's class? When I click on that I get some sort of social media thing. Maybe Twitter? Unless you call this social media, I don't do social media. Thanks.

Colorado:

Basic Precision Rifle – 3-Day Course

Visit the post for more.

milehighshootingoutdoors.com

Tennessee:

Sniper's Hide Precision Rifle Training — Treadproof Academy

treadproof.com

Alaska:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/2019-alaska-precision-rifle-course.6895551/

 

[Steel head]

While I Agree with Selby on a few things I certainly don’t agree with him on many others.

 

[MK20]

MCHOG gave you the right links. If those don’t help you, PM him here. His name on the site is lowlight.

 

[MCHOG]

If you don't have a rifle but want to take a course, you might be able to rent one or get a loaner. Call Mile High and ask. I know some training facilities (Wolf Precision, I think) require new students to use in-house rifles so they don't have to deal with equipment issues.

 

[Rob01]

There is no controversy. That "real gunsmith" is full of it. The 6.5 Creedmoor has been out for almost 13 years and has proven itself. You will always have haters.

 

[Arc Light]

 

[Matches Malone]

View attachment 7294888

Lol

 

[Rob01]

Point proven.

 

[TIMMYTOY]

308 or 6.5 or 6 does not matter. They all would HURT.
Dang! I would NOT want to be shot at ALL.

 

[ThreeBravo]

Never having shot at anything that can shoot back I can only offer this:

- I've read that military policy is more concerned with wounding than killing. A wounded soldier takes 2 additional soldiers to drag him back to the medic, so that's 3 out of action. But that's the military.

- at ranges beyond 800 yards, and definitely beyond 1000 yards, all other things being equal, I would want a heaver, faster bullet if I was shooting at something other than paper.

- hitting with a 6.5 CM is probably preferable to missing with a .300 wing mag.

Can I ask where you read the policy that wounding an enemy combatant is preferred? I understand the logic behind it but a wounded enemy can still fire a weapon, operate a radio, throw a grenade, detonate an IED and countless other things. You are 100% correct that only hits matter, close only counts for things that go boom.

 

[BoltActionBrotherhood]

View attachment 7294888

I love the creedmoor, but that is fkn funny.

 

[Tokay444]

Those are Fudd smiths.

 

[Mute]

This isn't rocket science. If the ballistics are sufficient and the bullet is designed for shooting living things, then it will do the job. You have to vet some of the stuff you see on YT, just like any other source of information.

 

[Rocketmandb]

You will always have haters.

There are no haters on the internet...

 

[DJL2]

For defensive/hunting use in a SHTF scenario, long range capability is all but irrelevant. Capability on paper is entirely irrelevant. If you're primarily interested in 2-legged critters, 6mm, 6.5mm, 6.8mm, 7mm and 7.62mm are all perfectly viable. Depending on your mindset and aptitude, they offer strengths and trade offs. Staying with the short action class of .308 and .30 TC based cases gets you plenty of choices of magazines, actions, accessories, cases, etc.

For instance, a .243 Win running a 90 grain SST @ 3000+ fps is gonna be a good choice for anti-personnel use and small-medium big game. It might be a little tougher for you to enjoy in the meantime if you like to hunt bigger, tougher stuff, or what a smaller competition case for matches. Light recoil and cheap practice ammo are a boon, as is the .308 case family's ubiquitousness. It'd be pretty hard to argue against its viability on the cartridge's own merits. I'm not even a 6mm guy, just doing some theory crafting.

 

[dpb1776]

I'm new to the 6.5 creedmore myself but used the M-24 in the military along with the M-21. The military has been using the MK262 round to great effect for well over a decade now, I have been using it out of a 20inch spr for shorter matches and to take some coyotes, and a few feral hogs that weighed in around 220 pounds put them down with no issue, if forced to use it I can care less about ethics whether they take two steps and fall over dead or take one in the gut and crawl off to a ditch and die if they are 300 yards plus or out there gonna have bigger problems than me. That being said a 6.5 has way more weight and energy plus lower recoil and better hit probability at range if it comes to SHTF. Granted about any centerfire in .223, 30.06, 7mm etc is going to get the job done. Get a good rifle 6.5 or whatever and learn to shoot it properly and like others said a good semi auto would better serve your purpose. Granted popping some SOB at long range if he and his buds are up to no good may make the rest evaluate there course of action and reconsider.

 

[want2learn]

i would envision that shot placement would play a very significant role in this scenario...so a lighter recoiling and more controllable format might rank high in your decision making

 

[Steel head]

View attachment 7294888

Well,,,,,that pretty much settles it.

next topic?

 

[chrome]

Well,,,,,that pretty much settles it.

next topic?

MOA > MIL

 

[kthomas]

I'm not going to waste brain cells listening to those idiots on YouTube spew bullshit.

6.5 creedmoors work, and well. If you are not a handloader, it's an excellent cartridge to start dipping your toes into the long range world. Lots of merit to the 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[Steel head]

I'm not going to waste brain cells listening to those idiots on YouTube spew bullshit.

6.5 creedmoors work, and well. If you are not a handloader, it's an excellent cartridge to start dipping your toes into the long range world. Lots of merit to the 6.5 creedmoor.

The success of 6.5 CM tells the story.
1-those guys in the vids can complain all they want but they’re just pounding sand.
2-homosexuality is a lot more prevalent than previously thought.

 

[Steel head]

 

[Long Range 338]

The success of 6.5 CM tells the story.
1-those guys in the vids can complain all they want but they’re just pounding sand.
2-homosexuality is a lot more prevalent than previously thought.

Hmm. In considering your thoughts I agree cause I'm as Lesbian as they come!! LOL

 

[chevy_man]

"real gunsmith" is stuck in the 1950's and doesn't want anything new coming into his shop. He's a hardcore fudd that has zero interest in the physics involved.

He also has a huge problem with Hornady because he had an issue with a reamer/brass when it was very first introduced.


I've seen 15 dead elk in the last 3 years from 143 eld-x's. They work just fine if you keep the range reasonable (500 yards and in).

People are fragile, I'd have no issue using a 223 at 800 yards to defend myself.

 

[Red343]

LOL, some people hate change.

Would the 6.5 and 6 cartridges really be good for defense against bad guys? Hell to the YES!
Are there different 6.5 Creedmoors with differently constructed bullets? Yes, hunting, tactical to match ammo. Federal, Sierra, Berger, Lehigh defense. Werner, etc...


I love both 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor, pick a Flavor, practice and become proficient.
If you really want a a long range bad guy killer at distance and anti material rifle, get a Barrett M82A1

 

[Long Range 338]

"real gunsmith" is stuck in the 1950's and doesn't want anything new coming into his shop. He's a hardcore fudd that has zero interest in the physics involved.

He also has a huge problem with Hornady because he had an issue with a reamer/brass when it was very first introduced.

If you were a high end gunsmith and had a bunch of customer issues based on bad reamer specs or whatever you would more than likely have a bad taste in your mouth as well. Perspective is everything.

 

[Rob01]

If you were a high end gunsmith and had a bunch of customer issues based on bad reamer specs or whatever you would more than likely have a bad taste in your mouth as well. Perspective is everything.

And you should also have the knowledge and be humble enough to know it was the bad reamer and not the actual round. So if he got a bad .308 reamer he would be running it down too? LOL

 

[chevy_man]

If you were a high end gunsmith and had a bunch of customer issues based on bad reamer specs or whatever you would more than likely have a bad taste in your mouth as well. Perspective is everything.

By that argument nobody should ever try and correct a problem with a bad part.

I'm surprised he even likes 308, figure he would just dismiss it as a silly low powered 30-06.

 

[Bro Mo]

The following YouTube video provides an example of the difference between statistical significance and practical significance.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is statistically significantly a ballistic improvement as demonstrated with a significantly smaller group size in this video.

However, it's not practically significant as demonstrated by both having all rounds connect at 1000 yards.