Range Report Why the "exotic" calibers?

[garandman]

I guess by "exotic" I mean other than 223 and 308 (yeah, I'm a boring guy)

So here's the question -

<span style="font-weight: bold">Why did you choose a caliber other than 223 or 308 for your precision gun?</span> Yeah, I know about flat shooting calibers and good ballistics, but I'm thinking there must be specific reasons in addition to these.

Thanx.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

maybe its because .....you want an edge.

its all about bullet selection and the ability to drive them accurately.

there are hunters and then there are them that just shoot paper and steel.

and still others that protect and defend

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

if there wasn't an advantage in getting a higher percentage of hits, it would be just an "exotic" choice,

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

While 223 and 308 are solid performers in their own rights, there are other calibers that can be used in short action bolt guns that have better ballistics (both exterior and terminal-depending on shooter's application).

I've been a 308 shooter for my comp gun for a while now, but am working on my 7-08. The elevation I gain by using a higher BC bullet isn't much, but the windage at distance may give me a better percentage of hits. My 308 at 600 yards will get pushed 20% farther off target than my 7-08 will, so if I'm just "close" on my wind call, I have a better chance of getting a hit with the 7-08, and there are better calibers than that (its just what I have laying around to play with).

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

"..flat shooting ...and good ballistics.." You answered your own question.

Run the numbers between a .308W 175 gr. SMK at 2700 +-FPS and a 6.5 142 gr. SMK at 2900 FPS out of either a 6.5-06 or 6.5-284. At 100 yard there is a significant difference in the drop. Shooting a flatter cartridge give you more room for error in your range estimation. YMMV

Good luck

Jerry

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While 223 and 308 are solid performers in their own rights, there are other calibers that can be used in short action bolt guns that have better ballistics (both exterior and terminal-depending on shooter's application).

I've been a 308 shooter for my comp gun for a while now, but am working on my 7-08. The elevation I gain by using a higher BC bullet isn't much, but the windage at distance may give me a better percentage of hits. My 308 at 600 yards will get pushed 20% farther off target than my 7-08 will, so if I'm just "close" on my wind call, I have a better chance of getting a hit with the 7-08, and there are better calibers than that (its just what I have laying around to play with). </div></div>
Exactly. There's nothing wrong with the 223 or 308. But there are other calibers that will provide better ballistics than a 308 for long range. Just research the differnt 6.5 and 7mm calibers, and compair them to a 308, and you'll see what we mean.

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

I agree that there is 'excess' in the caliber options especially in the case of some of the in-between calibers like .257 and .277.

Most of the popular calibers are spaced by .020. Consider the line-up:

<span style="font-weight: bold">.224 .244</span>/.257/<span style="font-weight: bold">.264</span>/.277/<span style="font-weight: bold">.284</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">.308</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">.338</span>

.257 is only .013" bigger than .244, and .007 smaller than .264.

.277 is only .013" bigger than .264 and .007" smaller than .284.

I don't believe there is a practical need to split the calibers up so closely. Why do exist? Probably tradition more than anything.

-Bryan

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Very interesting observation Bryan, could also be rated to SD correlation of those .020 spaced caliber's match bullets.......

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Variables
1. distance you want it to travel
2. energy when it gets there
3. recoil felt
4. how much you want to spend $$$$$$

I will add that I did not put down accuracy because with enough of #4 you can have accuracy in ANYTHING.

 

[JRose]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Performance....

 

[Guest]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess by "exotic" I mean other than 223 and 308 (yeah, I'm a boring guy)

So here's the question -

<span style="font-weight: bold">Why did you choose a caliber other than 223 or 308 for your precision gun?</span> Yeah, I know about flat shooting calibers and good ballistics, but I'm thinking there must be specific reasons in addition to these.

Thanx.</div></div>

The .223 an .308 are main stays, so is my other choice, the 300wm. The 300 allows me a much larger % of hits vs the .308 win's error range when going past 800yds. Ammo for the 300 is everywhere.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

I just like the way their names sound.

6.5 "Grendel" 408 "Cheytac" 338 "Lapua"

They actually "perform" better? Who knew.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Two movie lines...

1. "If you build it, they will come" (Field of Dreams).

R&D technology continues to offer us better mousetraps. Some of it is good old fashioned marketing. Most of it is science. Remember the old argument that the .30-06 (introduced in <span style="text-decoration: underline">1906</span>)would be the only military round we would ever need (remember that Hathcock started his legendary career in Vietnam with this round)...enter the .308...wait for it...enter the 5.56...wait for it...enter the <span style="text-decoration: underline">fill in the blank</span>. As the face of warfare has changed from "close with and destroy" to "stand off", the need for longer range calibers (.338LM, .375/408 Cheytac, .416 Barrett, and good old .50 BMG)are being seriously evaluated and utilized. The long distance kill record (2657 yards)was not done with a .223 or .308 because they simply can't get there.

2. "FREEDOM!!" (Braveheart)

We choose because we can. It's the same answer to the question, "Why are there so many brands of beer in the cooler?" Different strokes. The shooting world has been full of "exotic" calibers since the invention of the gun. Every new round starts out as exotic but as it gains popularity, it moves it's way toward "common." Some calibers simply don't work. All wildcat rounds don't pan out. But with the advent of computer modeling, the don't pan out's are becoming more rare.

At the end of the day, decisions to field military calibers like 5.56 and 7.62 are not just based on science. Politics has ALOT to do with it. If you doubt that, just examine our relationship with NATO and the calibers that have come out of that marriage. I remember the handgunners twisting off when the military adopted the 9mm over .45 because of NATO.

If it comes down to raw need, it's hard to beat the old .22LR. More deer have been taken by this round than any other and it still is the close range choice of assassins. But it would be a hard sell to convince everyone that they should trade in their other weapons in other calibers because they don't have a need for them. As you said, there are specific reasons for having multiple choices.

 

[Saito]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?


If it comes down to raw need, it's hard to beat the old .22LR. More deer have been taken by this round than any other and it still is the close range choice of assassins. But it would be a hard sell to convince everyone that they should trade in their other weapons in other calibers because they don't have a need for them. As you said, there are specific reasons for having multiple choices. [/quote]

Are you serious? More deer taken w/ a .22 than any other round? I really doubt that. As far as exotic calibers go, the staples of today were once the "wildcats" of yesterday.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Saito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you serious? More deer taken w/ a .22 than any other round? I really doubt that. </div></div>

In my neck of the woods, poachers take out deer 10 to 1 over legal hunters and their weapon of choice is the .22LR. (This info from a friend who is a game cop)

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

I DOUBT MORE DEER HAVE BEEN TAKEN WITH A 22LR THAN OTHERS

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

sorry about caps have changed before someone says anything

 

[acttacus]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Saito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
More deer taken w/ a .22 than any other round? </div></div>

I don't have the facts, but it's likely true. Most of my deer hunting in New Zealand have been in the bush close range, and I often use 22LR or 00 buckshot. large caliber rifles are rarely used due to over-penetration, and is just not needed. but in New Zealand, more deer and pigs have been taken with .303 than any other caliber, simply due to the large quantity of cheap surplus and rifles left over from the war.

 

[acttacus]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Just to add to that, most people will probably think that a 22LR is insufficient to drop mid size games like deer and pigs.

But I've seen with my own eyes a good number of deers, goats and pigs dropped with a .177 air rifle. One shot kill, dropped on the spot. ~20fpe (foot pound of energy), Shot placement and experience is the most important part.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

I heard those Inuit take a whole lot of game with .22LR, including very large animals like caribou and polar bear.

A cartridge choice is (sometimes) the end user's decision based on what he or she needs it to do. Everyone has their own idea of what they want in a cartridge with concerns to ballistics and terminal performance. Then there is practicality and logistics of ammo supply. For many people, .223 and .308 are the practical choices because ammo is readily avaliable and there are many firearms chambered for those 2 rounds.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

I've hunted with many, many, locals who uniformly relate stories of outlawing deer in their distant past with .22's. I suspect many families relied on this during hard times. This was also apparently before substantial fish and game regulation, detection and enforcement.

I live in an extremely rural area of the southern Oregon coast that still has many elements of the wild wild west but suspect my experience is shared with many others across the U.S. Soooo.....I bet the .22 deer lore is probably true.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Can't say about the .22LR King of the Venison caliber claim. I <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> believe that a huge proportion of deer are overkilled. The chamberings some use would be overkill for Godzilla. I think there's a reasonable difference between dispatching a deer and vaporizing large portions thereof.

Greg

 

[Downzero]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Back to the thread topic, I shoot a lot of .223 and .308 because the brass is cheap. I think the military is stupid for sticking with them, especially the latter cartridge.

 

[KUSA]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back to the thread topic, I shoot a lot of .223 and .308 because the brass is cheap. I think the military is stupid for sticking with them, especially the latter cartridge. </div></div>

Both the 223 and 308 are solid performing military cartridges. They may not be as flat shooting as an exotic caliber but they don't burn out barrels either.
What calibers would you recommend the military to use?

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ninpo2006</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both the 223 and 308 are solid performing military cartridges. They may not be as flat shooting as an exotic caliber but they don't burn out barrels either.
What calibers would you recommend the military to use? </div></div>

Throat erosion is a issue in all weapons. Granted, it is worse in magnum calibers, but .308 is not immune.

If we were not tied to NATO, I think 6.5 would be looked at more seriously. Empirical terminal ballistic data coming back from combat proves that a heavier caliber would be more effective. However, I don't expect 5.56 to be replaced anytime soon.

 

[deersniper]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Alot of deer are shot with .22LR.

I have a 7mm Mag to go along with my .223 and .308 bolt guns. A little more range.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

The biggest thing for me is that I want to get away from the normal. I dont want what everyone else has.

At Juniper Tactical last month, I think there were maybe 1-2 guys not running either .308Win or .223Rem

There is nothing rong with that, and yeah, it does come with alot of advantages, most notably being ease of ammo/components.
Alot of gun guys like to tinker, espetialy BR guys; and its no suprise that most inovations in the shooting sports come from the BR crowd....because they tinker.

Guys go to exotic calibers to have an advantage on ballistics, and just to be different...

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

First, think about what you guys are saying. I realize you guys are on east coast. Where there probably are not many deer. The mass numbers of hunters do not shoot 22lr at deer. They far out number the poachers. You add up all the rifles, not counting the 22lr, that shoot deer and I can not believe some one would make such a stupid statement. As for the exotic caliber question. We do not drive around in horse and carriages anymore. Well, some of you guys might. For the rest of us, we drive new technological advancements. So, I teach my son to do his best, and that includes making the best decisions also. I also understand, what is best for him is not neccesary the best for someone else. I think we can all agree that the ( 6.5x 47 lapua, .260 rem, 6.5 creedmoor ) out performs the .308 in everyway possible except availability of factory ammo in stores.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I realize you guys are on east coast.

I can not believe some one would make such a stupid statement.
</div></div>

I don't want to be condescending (which means to talk down to someone)but if you check your globe, Oregon is on the <span style="font-weight: bold">west</span> coast. Since you are obviously a game cop working in <span style="font-weight: bold">my</span> area and have different information than the game cop I talked to, we should get together sometime for coffee and compare notes.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

What you Tbolt68 says would be true, for recent history. But the .22 has been around far longer. At one point in time the ".22 taken more deer..." claim was almost undoubtedly true. It may not be anymore given that deer taken with more modern calibers would eventually catch up and surpass. I doubt its possible to determine with certainty.

On "exotic" calibers, I don't even think of the calibers mentioned as exotic. Maybe thats just me as I handload practically everything. Gotta run, horse needs to be put back in the stable, washed and fed for the ride to work tomorrow.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OLIN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gotta run, horse needs to be put back in the stable, washed and fed for the ride to work tomorrow. </div></div>

I think I just ran urine down my leg from laughing!

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

I was talking about the guys from North Carolina, but I will add you to list. As for Exotics calibers, I am refering to the original statement posted "as any caliber other than 223 or 308"
Now i realize in oregon you have a deer population of 10,000 and if your math is 10 poachers to one hunter. then possibly 5000 deer are killed a year by 22lr. here in texas where we have 2 million deer killed annually buy rifle other than 22lr. so i doubt that your poachers can even catch up. The deer kills are going up expo. Now as for DaveV you probably need to put your diapers back on so it does not get all over the floor

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Now seriously, I really should have not put my statement that way. I am sorry, for saying the stupid word.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you probably need to put your diapers <span style="font-weight: bold">bake</span> on so it does not <span style="font-weight: bold">grt</span> all over the floor </div></div>

Boy, you got me there.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

To clarify my original post, my point was simply that one caliber does not fit all sized situations. It was not to opine on the deer harvesting statistics of every state in the union. I don't care what calibers are used. I simply made an informed statement of fact derived from a conversation with a game cop. Lighten up dudes!! .22LR is not the point of this topic. If you want to insist that my game cop friend is wrong about the information from <span style="font-weight: bold">my</span> area, then, farout...you've proven me wrong. Do you feel better now? I hope so.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

You are right, sorry to get off topic. I do agree not one caliber size fits all. I am just saying I think the 6.5's ( 6.5x47, 260,6.5 creed.) are better than the 308.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

I completely agree. Like I said before, if we were not tied to NATO, I think something in 6.5 would make a better combat round. I've read too many stories about bad guys not going down with 5.56. I would like to hear from some combat vets who have real world experience. If you could choose an issue round other than 5.56, would you and why?

 

[spiralseal]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you probably need to put your diapers <span style="font-weight: bold">bake</span> on so it does not <span style="font-weight: bold">grt</span> all over the floor </div></div>

Boy, you got me there. </div></div>

DaveV , are you pissing on my bud Thunder? Like Leonidas stated, chose your words carefully, you are accountable for them.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

Not pissing on your bud or anybody else's. If you read my posts, you'll figure out what I'm talking about. I've got no problem with Thunder and I don't even know what you are trying to say.

 

[deersniper]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, think about what you guys are saying. I realize you guys are on east coast. Where there probably are not many deer. The mass numbers of hunters do not shoot 22lr at deer. They far out number the poachers. You add up all the rifles, not counting the 22lr, that shoot deer and I can not believe some one would make such a stupid statement. As for the exotic caliber question. We do not drive around in horse and carriages anymore. Well, some of you guys might. For the rest of us, we drive new technological advancements. So, I teach my son to do his best, and that includes making the best decisions also. I also understand, what is best for him is not neccesary the best for someone else. I think we can all agree that the ( 6.5x 47 lapua, .260 rem, 6.5 creedmoor ) out performs the .308 in everyway possible except availability of factory ammo in stores.
</div></div>

LOL. You need to take a trip to MD. In the summertime before hunters make the deer nocturnal, I can show you a bunch of farms with a 100+ deer on each one. Deer thrive here. There are ag fields full of corn, soybeans, etc divided by patches of woods. A place to live and a place to eat high protein crops.

You would be surprised by how many farmers routinely shoot deer with a .22LR. I know of one that has shot 50+ this year with one.

Hunters around here are idiots and/or trophy hunters. They don't kill many deer.

-dan

Back to the exotic calibers . . . .

 

[deersniper]

Re: Why the "exotic" calibers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I completely agree. Like I said before, if we were not tied to NATO, I think something in 6.5 would make a better combat round. I've read too many stories about bad guys not going down with 5.56. I would like to hear from some combat vets who have real world experience. If you could choose an issue round other than 5.56, would you and why? </div></div>

Military is restricted to FMJ, a 60 VMAX in a .223 is a great round at 300 and it.

.308 is what I would use instead of .223. One stop drops out to 600 yards with a 168 AMAX.
-dan.