Rifle Scopes Why was the Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 EBR-2Cdiscontinued.

#4
vincent7 said:
Still have a lot to learn about scopes. Looking at this one;
www.eurooptic.com

Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 EBR-2C Riflescope RZR-42706

Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 EBR-2C Riflescope RZR-42706 | Only at EuroOptic.com!
www.eurooptic.com www.eurooptic.com
Any reason why this specific model was discontinued?
Click to expand...

A lesson from Trader Joes: Give 'em three choices. The customer will pick one. Given 'em 10 choices, the customer will go home and research which is the best. <-- this is true, and TJ's sells more product (measured in $ spend) per square foot than any other grocery store, and its prices are lower than the average grocery store. It is a little tight inside, so it is a little cramped for me, but there are lessons to be learned from other industries.

Also, production costs, inventory, etc., gets higher and higher the more times you make a different SKU and offer a different product or version.

Then, Vortex had quite a few warranty returns with the 4.5-27x and with the AMG, so maybe they improved production or QA on the latest generation, noted by the new reticles. I really know nothing of whether the new scopes are more consistent in their production, but it is possible. Nobody likes a large return rate.
 
#5
SCOPEBROKER said:
Then, Vortex had quite a few warranty returns with the 4.5-27x and with the AMG, so maybe they improved production or QA on the latest generation, noted by the new reticles. I really know nothing of whether the new scopes are more consistent in their production, but it is possible. Nobody likes a large return rate.
Click to expand...

Vortex did not and does not have a large return rate on the Razor II or AMG scopes. Not sure where you came up with that.

The 2C was simply replaced as a reticle. Simple and easy answer. People wanted a dot and also the numbers in the tree moved. They really liked the reticle in the AMG so Vortex listened to their customers. No inherent issues with the 2C scopes or the reticle. I still have a few of them including some of the first out and they are still going strong. Bottom line it was just a change in reticle alone. Nothing more.
 
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#6
Rob01 said:
Vortex did not and does not have a large return rate on the Razor II or AMG scopes. Not sure where you came up with that.
Click to expand...

No disrepect to you or to Vortex, but their warranty return rate is quite a bit higher than their peer group. I have not seen research or numbers, and those would probably not be publically available, but just from observation and discussion with other dealers, the higher-magnifaction Vortex HD has had a higher proportion of returns, compared to Nightforce, Kahles, Schmidt & Bender. Many reviewers have noted that when you get a good one, it is a good one, but out of the box returns were high, and thus you notice the very liberal warranty. The quality of the glass and the scope is very high, and Vortex has a very high satisfaction rate.

Is this news to you?

Again, not looking for an arguement. The scope is a very high quality scope, and many prefer it over other high-end brands.

Not that one thread is an accurate sample, but here is one you will see comments about a broken Vortex and how responsive customer service is: https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/vortex-warranty-and-service.63118/ These sort of comments are quite common. I have read them here as well. Most Vortex users will comment on how great their customer service is. When I talk to Nighforce, they tell me they get very few calls to customer service.

I am happy to retract the statement if it bothers you. This is what we have heard, and as a business, carry the LPVO Razors, and have not seen any quality issues. Consistency is a factor in quality. Like many have said, they are 100% satisfied with their Razor. Then, you will hear of the guy who had problems out of the box, and 'got a new Razor' My experience is they are world class scopes, but have had a higher proporation of out of the box bad scopes, and that Vortex fixes the problem without question. That is what really matters. I have had bad problems with Hilton Hotels, but got an upgrade to a new room. My view of Hiltion is superior. The fact I got a bad room and they fixed it makes me even more satisfied.
 
Last edited:
#7
scope face.JPG

Is this you?
If so it sums up your bias.
 
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#9
SCOPEBROKER said:
No disrepect to you or to Vortex, but their warranty return rate is quite a bit higher than their peer group. I have not seen research or numbers, and those would probably not be publically available, but just from observation and discussion with other dealers, the higher-magnifaction Vortex HD has had a higher proportion of returns, compared to Nightforce, Kahles, Schmidt & Bender. Many reviewers have noted that when you get a good one, it is a good one, but out of the box returns were high, and thus you notice the very liberal warranty. The quality of the glass and the scope is very high, and Vortex has a very high satisfaction rate.

Is this news to you?

Again, not looking for an arguement. The scope is a very high quality scope, and many prefer it over other high-end brands.

Not that one thread is an accurate sample, but here is one you will see comments about a broken Vortex and how responsive customer service is: https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/vortex-warranty-and-service.63118/ These sort of comments are quite common. I have read them here as well. Most Vortex users will comment on how great their customer service is. When I talk to Nighforce, they tell me they get very few calls to customer service.

I am happy to retract the statement if it bothers you. This is what we have heard, and as a business, carry the LPVO Razors, and have not seen any quality issues. Consistency is a factor in quality. Like many have said, they are 100% satisfied with their Razor. Then, you will hear of the guy who had problems out of the box, and 'got a new Razor' My experience is they are world class scopes, but have had a higher proporation of out of the box bad scopes, and that Vortex fixes the problem without question. That is what really matters. I have had bad problems with Hilton Hotels, but got an upgrade to a new room. My view of Hiltion is superior. The fact I got a bad room and they fixed it makes me even more satisfied.
Click to expand...

You like most assume because a Diamondback goes back this speaks for all Vortex line. Vortex makes a large line of scopes. Even look at your link. Not about a Razor II. Your post doesn't bother me but it is very misleading as the return rate for the Razor II is no higher than others in that price range. The difference is Vortex treats all their customers very well whether you bought a Crossfire or an AMG. That is what makes people happy.

No need to retract as it shows others not to assume.
 
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#10
squishee said:
View attachment 7459879
Is this you?
If so it sums up your bias.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of great sccopes. Minox is one. Opions change in two years. I would put Minox up there in the top tier. Tangent Theta might be better than Minox. Kahles is great, Schmidt & Bender is great. Nightforce is great. Leupold has moved up quite a bit.

We all have a biases on scopes. I am not degrading Vortex. It is amazing. in 2020, there are lots of amazing scopes. I think the post is misinterpreted. As a business, we like alls sopes that sell. As a scope user and admitted scope snob, we all have our biases. Each of us likes that one brand.

In our businesss - not that our business is an indication of how great a scope is - Vortex does not hold its resale value as well as Kahles and Nightforce and S&B. Part of that is due to the very generous military discount they give, and the buyers then sell later. Resale value has nothing to do with quality, but just pointing out. We also sell a large number of PST and Razor 1-6x and 1-10x.

I own a Vortex high power Razor, and have it mounted on my MRAD .300 WM. I like it a lot.
 
#11
SCOPEBROKER said:
There are a lot of great sccopes. Minox is one. Opions change in two years. I would put Minox up there in the top tier. Tangent Theta might be better than Minox. Kahles is great, Schmidt & Bender is great. Nightforce is great. Leupold has moved up quite a bit.

We all have a biases on scopes. I am not degrading Vortex. It is amazing. in 2020, there are lots of amazing scopes. I think the post is misinterpreted. As a business, we like alls sopes that sell. As a scope user and admitted scope snob, we all have our biases. Each of us likes that one brand.

In our businesss - not that our business is an indication of how great a scope is - Vortex does not hold its resale value as well as Kahles and Nightforce and S&B. Part of that is due to the very generous military discount they give, and the buyers then sell later. Resale value has nothing to do with quality, but just pointing out. We also sell a large number of PST and Razor 1-6x and 1-10x.

I own a Vortex high power Razor, and have it mounted on my MRAD .300 WM. I like it a lot.
Click to expand...
what's a vortex high power razor and where can i get one??

pretty sure used razor gen 2's sell closer to new price than kahles and NF.
new razor g2 $1600. used $1450-1600
new kahles 525 $3350. used $2200-2700
new NF 7-35 $3600. used $2700-3000
 
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#12
How many of those returns were actual problems vs perceived or self inflicted issues though? IE, not tightening the set screws on the turret enough, or using the wrong hex key and stripping them, or wrong torque on the rings. I have yet to personally see one go down for actual proven mechanical problems. Vortex customer service also encourages you to send them in if you even think you have an issue, and turnaround time is so fast people don’t mind it. How many other scope companies will even fix or replace a scope that you damaged yourself? That accounts for a lot of their warranty claims IMO.
 
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#14
vincent7 said:
Thanks, noticed that and that's why I started this thread. Doing a bit of homework here :)
Click to expand...
Good for you. While your post count isn't high, you've been around SH for awhile. It's generally a good idea to look at commenters' post count and such, especially when they bash one vendor or another. It's kinda funny when people bash Vortex... as if their entry-level, cheap scopes are the same quality as their top-line scopes. From another perspective, it's kinda like going to a big Toyota dealership's repair shop, seeing all those cars up on racks, and running out and declaring Toyotas have a high repair rate... never mind how many they sell in relation to how many break.

I had one of the Razors with a 2C reticle. Sold it for a 7C Razor. Never had any problems with it at all. Due diligence: while I did want to update to the 7C, my 2C Razor was also MOA and I made the switch to mils - after discovering, while it was mounted on a .22, how much time it took to spin the MOA elevation turret from 44MOA (300 yards) to 4MOA (85 yards) with a 90-second par time running. There's a lot more clicks between 300 and 85 on an MOA turret versus a mils turret.
 
#15
I've always been a Kahles supporter.
Trudged lots of terrain and various climates with them.
Never had an issue.
This Razor II that I have now, is great.
Thoroughly enjoying it's optics and tracking.
Love the MRAD reticle.
As a matter of interest, I had a look through one of the cheaper Vortex scopes, the difference was apparent, but still a decent scope for the price.
So, money well spent in my book.
The store I go to, is predominantly Vortex now, simply because of demand, and they have stellar support from the distributor.
It's a winning formula.
 
#16
We all have some level of bias, no one likes to see anything negative about their favorite brand or sponsor, but sooner or later anything mechanical will fail.

The gen 2 Razor is a great scope, and is usually compared to scopes like NF, S&B, etc that cost significantly more $. This alone says a lot for it.
Imho, the Razor line may have a slightly higher rate of return than some more expensive optics, but we are still looking at a very low number.
If you are looking for the most scope for the $ I think you found it.
 
#18
b6graham said:
what's a vortex high power razor and where can i get one??

pretty sure used razor gen 2's sell closer to new price than kahles and NF.
new razor g2 $1600. used $1450-1600
new kahles 525 $3350. used $2200-2700
new NF 7-35 $3600. used $2700-3000
Click to expand...

High Power, I was referring to the 4.5-27x Gen2 Razor. High Power, as in higher magnification.

Sorry, but you lost me on the rest of the discussion. At $1,600, you might be referring to mid-range, like the 3-18x? Those are $1,700+ scopes. List prices and MAP can be very confusing, as some scopes sell at street prices at or close to MAP and some sell less than MAP, so until you get into the actual street prices (prices sold by dealers, but not advertised) and the margins dealers have, it is hard for you to do comparison. And, each brand is different in terms of dealer margin, as is the dealer pricing. The more you sell of one brand, the deeper discount the dealer gets, so there is lot going on behind the scenes in the math of what prices work, and different dealers will find different scopes work better or worse for their customer mix. It is not rocket science, but it is complex.

You might find an entirely different situation with an indivdual sale, just as you would with a used car. You are always going to get a better deal selling your old car on Craig's List and then buying a new car at the dealership. Same with scopes.

While none of this has anything to do with the value of a scope, we have found from our business of taking in used scopes in trade, and selling new scopes that the most ideal situation is to have a known scope that is in high demand that provides a good margin and sells the fastest. In reality, you have some scopes with higher margins that take longer to sell, and some with lower margins that sell faster. Either is good. When we couple that with a great new scope and at fair price, we have a win-win for our business and the customer.

But the economics of selling a used scope is the same, whether you are selling or we a dealer is selling. Some scopes just take longer to sell at "market price,", or you reduce your price. I suppose it is similar to anything, including buying a house.

What we have found is that, amoungst other reasons, the military discounts are very deep on Vortex, and that causes both the resale value and the competition (lots of used high magnification scopes being sold) makes for either a lower resale price or a longer time to hold. That is just a business decision, and has nothing to do with the quality of the scope.

You could be right about the mid-magnification Razor. Perhaps the 3-18x does better. For whatever reason, we tend to buy and sell in the high and ultra magnification scopes 20x to 35x or the LPVO with 1x-6, 8x or 10x.

I hope that helps. I had trouble following your note.
 
#20
matchbook454 said:
My guess as well
Click to expand...

makes sense. Reticles are also always evolving, and each brand has to come with something new, to be noticed and to be seen as innovating. Sometimes it is innovation, sometimes just something new to create buzz to write about. Most brands moved to Horus-like reticles and have ben well received. Some just make minor changes to the more "clean look." I think the Germans are much slower to adopt new reticles. Like the Schmidt P4 reticle. I think my grandfather used one. :unsure:
 
#21
SCOPEBROKER said:
High Power, I was referring to the 4.5-27x Gen2 Razor. High Power, as in higher magnification.

Sorry, but you lost me on the rest of the discussion. At $1,600, you might be referring to mid-range, like the 3-18x? Those are $1,700+ scopes. List prices and MAP can be very confusing, as some scopes sell at street prices at or close to MAP and some sell less than MAP, so until you get into the actual street prices (prices sold by dealers, but not advertised) and the margins dealers have, it is hard for you to do comparison. And, each brand is different in terms of dealer margin, as is the dealer pricing. The more you sell of one brand, the deeper discount the dealer gets, so there is lot going on behind the scenes in the math of what prices work, and different dealers will find different scopes work better or worse for their customer mix. It is not rocket science, but it is complex.

You might find an entirely different situation with an indivdual sale, just as you would with a used car. You are always going to get a better deal selling your old car on Craig's List and then buying a new car at the dealership. Same with scopes.

While none of this has anything to do with the value of a scope, we have found from our business of taking in used scopes in trade, and selling new scopes that the most ideal situation is to have a known scope that is in high demand that provides a good margin and sells the fastest. In reality, you have some scopes with higher margins that take longer to sell, and some with lower margins that sell faster. Either is good. When we couple that with a great new scope and at fair price, we have a win-win for our business and the customer.

But the economics of selling a used scope is the same, whether you are selling or we a dealer is selling. Some scopes just take longer to sell at "market price,", or you reduce your price. I suppose it is similar to anything, including buying a house.

What we have found is that, amoungst other reasons, the military discounts are very deep on Vortex, and that causes both the resale value and the competition (lots of used high magnification scopes being sold) makes for either a lower resale price or a longer time to hold. That is just a business decision, and has nothing to do with the quality of the scope.

You could be right about the mid-magnification Razor. Perhaps the 3-18x does better. For whatever reason, we tend to buy and sell in the high and ultra magnification scopes 20x to 35x or the LPVO with 1x-6, 8x or 10x.

I hope that helps. I had trouble following your note.
Click to expand...
Brand new 4.5-27 Razor is readily available for $1600 street price.
Maybe it's only from business not looking for generous margin but rather happy repeat customers....
 
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#24
SCOPEBROKER said:
High Power, I was referring to the 4.5-27x Gen2 Razor. High Power, as in higher magnification.

Sorry, but you lost me on the rest of the discussion. At $1,600, you might be referring to mid-range, like the 3-18x? Those are $1,700+ scopes. List prices and MAP can be very confusing, as some scopes sell at street prices at or close to MAP and some sell less than MAP, so until you get into the actual street prices (prices sold by dealers, but not advertised) and the margins dealers have, it is hard for you to do comparison. And, each brand is different in terms of dealer margin, as is the dealer pricing. The more you sell of one brand, the deeper discount the dealer gets, so there is lot going on behind the scenes in the math of what prices work, and different dealers will find different scopes work better or worse for their customer mix. It is not rocket science, but it is complex.

You might find an entirely different situation with an indivdual sale, just as you would with a used car. You are always going to get a better deal selling your old car on Craig's List and then buying a new car at the dealership. Same with scopes.

While none of this has anything to do with the value of a scope, we have found from our business of taking in used scopes in trade, and selling new scopes that the most ideal situation is to have a known scope that is in high demand that provides a good margin and sells the fastest. In reality, you have some scopes with higher margins that take longer to sell, and some with lower margins that sell faster. Either is good. When we couple that with a great new scope and at fair price, we have a win-win for our business and the customer.

But the economics of selling a used scope is the same, whether you are selling or we a dealer is selling. Some scopes just take longer to sell at "market price,", or you reduce your price. I suppose it is similar to anything, including buying a house.

What we have found is that, amoungst other reasons, the military discounts are very deep on Vortex, and that causes both the resale value and the competition (lots of used high magnification scopes being sold) makes for either a lower resale price or a longer time to hold. That is just a business decision, and has nothing to do with the quality of the scope.

You could be right about the mid-magnification Razor. Perhaps the 3-18x does better. For whatever reason, we tend to buy and sell in the high and ultra magnification scopes 20x to 35x or the LPVO with 1x-6, 8x or 10x.

I hope that helps. I had trouble following your note.
Click to expand...
Last fall I bought x3 new 4.5-27 7c for 1600 each new from a dealer....

NO mil discount
 
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#27
lte82 said:
How many of those returns were actual problems vs perceived or self inflicted issues though? IE, not tightening the set screws on the turret enough, or using the wrong hex key and stripping them, or wrong torque on the rings. I have yet to personally see one go down for actual proven mechanical problems. Vortex customer service also encourages you to send them in if you even think you have an issue, and turnaround time is so fast people don’t mind it. How many other scope companies will even fix or replace a scope that you damaged yourself? That accounts for a lot of their warranty claims IMO.
Click to expand...

Same. I have never seen a gen 2 go down for a reason the manufacturer would be responsible for.

I have seen issues with cheaper/lower tier vortex optics. But that’s completely expected as they are lower tiers.

I don’t think it would be an overestimate to say I’ve been at matches with 500+ different gen 2’s and have never heard of one going down (have heard of parallax binding and such from rings, but again, not a vortex problem) that wasn’t user error.
 
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#28
SCOPEBROKER said:
A lesson from Trader Joes: Give 'em three choices. The customer will pick one. Given 'em 10 choices, the customer will go home and research which is the best. <-- this is true, and TJ's sells more product (measured in $ spend) per square foot than any other grocery store, and its prices are lower than the average grocery store. It is a little tight inside, so it is a little cramped for me, but there are lessons to be learned from other industries.

Also, production costs, inventory, etc., gets higher and higher the more times you make a different SKU and offer a different product or version.

Then, Vortex had quite a few warranty returns with the 4.5-27x and with the AMG, so maybe they improved production or QA on the latest generation, noted by the new reticles. I really know nothing of whether the new scopes are more consistent in their production, but it is possible. Nobody likes a large return rate.
Click to expand...

Guess I’ll join the club and tell you that you are wrong also.

Bought a razor gen 2 7c brand new with a set of seekins PMR rings from a dealer for $1700 shipped to my door. No discount of any kind. Just joe blow here from SH.

The cheapest I have ever seen a razor sell for in the PX was $1450 I think, those don’t roll around often. So they retain 94% of their value if we go on the extreme side of low end pricing. What other scope holds its value better?

I don’t recall a single thread saying someone’s gen 2 razors was DOA or broke during use that wasn’t user error. If I’m not mistaken vortex does 100% QC check on the gen 2 razors and the AMG.

I own several vortex scopes and have only needed the warranty once, which was on a lower end hunting scope. You can not lump the g2 razors return rates in with the China made scopes. They are 2 different animals.
 
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#29
Rob01 said:
Yup. $1569 here.

Specials, Demos, Trades

Kowa Demo Showcase, Binoculars, Spotting Scope, Eyepiece, 8x32,8x42,10x32, 10x25, angled, straight, prominar, Butler Creek ARD
www.libertyoptics.com
Click to expand...

So you got a razor gen 2 with the 7c reticle for $1569 out the door / shipped? That sound tempting! :)

Wonder if they drop more since I've read a gen 3 is coming out / is already out (?).

Am undecided at this point, narrowed it down to the Cronus BTR and Razor gen 2.

Will probably wait and see what happens around black Friday.
 
#30
vincent7 said:
So you got a razor gen 2 with the 7c reticle for $1569 out the door / shipped? That sound tempting! :)

Wonder if they drop more since I've read a gen 3 is coming out / is already out (?).

Am undecided at this point, narrowed it down to the Cronus BTR and Razor gen 2.

Will probably wait and see what happens around black Friday.
Click to expand...

The Gen III is a 1-10x and not a higher powered precision optic. I doubt you will find one any cheaper than Liberty Optics sells them.
 
#32
Let's cut to the chase. You won't find a better price on Vortex than Liberty Optics. Period. You can putz around looking for a sale or a deal or whatever on current models, or you can contact Scott directly - tell him Snipers Hide sent you - and get great pricing and be done with it. The only downside is a few weeks' wait for your order to be filled by Vortex.
 
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#34
So you got a razor gen 2 with the 7c reticle for $1569 out the door / shipped? That sound tempting! :)

Wonder if they drop more since I've read a gen 3 is coming out / is already out (?).

Am undecided at this point, narrowed it down to the Cronus BTR and Razor gen 2.

Will probably wait and see what happens around black Friday.
[/QUOTE]
Try to look through both of them before you buy, its not worth saving a couple bucks getting the one you don't want. To me, the gen 2s eyebox is easier to get behind.
 
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#35
sleeplz said:
So you got a razor gen 2 with the 7c reticle for $1569 out the door / shipped? That sound tempting! :)

Wonder if they drop more since I've read a gen 3 is coming out / is already out (?).

Am undecided at this point, narrowed it down to the Cronus BTR and Razor gen 2.

Will probably wait and see what happens around black Friday.
Click to expand...
Try to look through both of them before you buy, its not worth saving a couple bucks getting the one you don't want. To me, the gen 2s eyebox is easier to get behind.
[/QUOTE]

Good advice, thanks. I'll truck down to Bass pro one of these days to look through both, then decide and buy from a Hide supporting vendor.
 
#36
I must be one of the weird ones.... I actually prefer the 2C reticle over the 7C for the type of shooting I do. It also works better with my astigmatism since the "dot" looks more like a half moon or cross. I like the concept of the floating dot, but so far, I've not had any missed targets because of the open center of the 2C.
For the 2C, I would prefer the numbers on the side (like on the 7c), but don't like the extra clutter of the posts/.2 wind holds on the 7C. Again, this is driven by my astigmatism, and the 7c starts to get cluttered. I find the 2C is just about right for usability, but not too much extra markings.

Point is.... try to look through a couple and see which you like best. Most guys like the 7C, but for me, the 2C is better. The Vortex G2 Razor is a very high quality option, and return on sale is usually very good.
 
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#37
Vortex has the best warranty in the optic industry IMHO. IF (and a big if) Vortex returns are high it is merely due to the fact it is so easy to return them for a replacement. @lowlight just posted his findings after testing over 150 scopes from production (majority user installed) and it appears the Vortex Razor GII scope very well among all the others.
My only disappointment with Vortex is what this thread is about. I was in the middle of converting all my NF stuff over to GenII 1-C reticles when they discontinued that and the 2-C. My astigmatism makes the center dot reticles difficult for me to be precise. Evidently there are many users out there that feel the same because I never see 1-C MRAD scopes come on the PX.
 
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#38
Just checked one out at Bass Pro to get a feel for it. Glad I did: Think this one is going to be too darn heavy for the rifle I'm putting it on. Great scope but that weight made me think again. Back to the drawing board.. Perhaps a Cronus is the one for me. Love the TAC I already have...
 
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#40
vincent7 said:
Just checked one out at Bass Pro to get a feel for it. Glad I did: Think this one is going to be too darn heavy for the rifle I'm putting it on. Great scope but that weight made me think again. Back to the drawing board.. Perhaps a Cronus is the one for me. Love the TAC I already have...
Click to expand...

What is the use of the rifle?
 
#42
There’s a 13 ounce difference between the Razor II and Cronus. I would bet if they were both mounted on the rifle you would be hard pressed to feel the difference. I went from a 38 ounce optic to the 48.5 ounce Razor II and couldn’t feel the difference. And being on a bench rifle weight is your friend. Just something to think about before writing it off for 13 ounces.
 
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