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Why we don't need or want government "Heros" (See: police shoot robbery suspects and innocent...)
- Thread starter casualfornow
- Start date
I used to deliver packages inside the UPS regional facility in Chantilly Virginia. They absolutely have a no gun policy both on their trucks and in their warehouses.
Plausible. At minimum a fighting chance.
The preordained part was probably a little much.
I don't know that we actually disagree much.
I am not sure if you are familiar with the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping.
Kidnapped for 9 months and then found safe. (The girl kidnapped from Tahoe and the 3 from Chicago come to mind also). While an awesome out come in the end. The fact is the odds were against it.
Same in this case also. I was hoping he would jump out the back door when the van slowed around a couple of corners.
I was not rooting against him, but he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and some days life is just that simple.
Not much different when a car full of family is going down the road minding their own business and out of nowhere another car crosses the median and kills the family.
D
Deleted member 113831
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If you type "Police Officer saves life", you get 19 million responses from Google. There is very little duplication of stories, the vast majority of them are separate and unrelated incidents. Everything from saving peoples pets, to saving peoples kids...to pulling people out of burning houses and cars. But....
If you type "Police kills innocent" you get 64 million returns, and half of the stories on the page will be about the same incident.
That is the reality.
Nobody gives a flying fuck what you do right, or how long you have been doing it right, or how many are doing it right, or how many lives were sacrificed while doing it right.
If you type "Police kills innocent" you get 64 million returns, and half of the stories on the page will be about the same incident.
That is the reality.
Nobody gives a flying fuck what you do right, or how long you have been doing it right, or how many are doing it right, or how many lives were sacrificed while doing it right.
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I’d start w/ the Basics of Marksmanship Instruction. We’d go over footwork, body position & proper grip; we’d cover drawing the weapon from concealment & we’d also use lots & lots of snap caps w/ the occasional live round. When not on the range we’d do a lot of dry fire.
Once we’ve made real progress we’d put an empty case on top of the front sight & dry fire that way. After each rep, reset & do it all over again. Once she can do that right, we 1) recognize that it’s not magic & 2) train until success is so repetitive it’s boring.
I spend a lot of time at the range. The most common issues I see are poor grip & slamming the trigger. W/ time, patience & a will to succeed anyone can learn to be a solid shooter.
With intervention by the good ones the numbers of bad shit would be negligible. The good ones know who the shitbirds are and don't do much of anything about it.
That's the reality!
D
Deleted member 113831
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You think we all get to vote on who gets fired? You obviously have no fucking idea how shit works in the real world.
You would have better luck getting a retarded, half black, lesbian fired from a job handing out food stamps at the welfare office.
Even if you did manage to get them fired, they would get picked up immediately by some other agency, because there simply aren't enough people who want to do this job. Go figure.
The world wants a constitutional scholar, with SpecOps ninja cred, and they want it for a garbage man's salary.
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But just think how the shitshow could have changed if that lil ol UPS guy had a VP9sk carried IWB.
Those Cops were Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Once Traffic trapped them there were no good options. Most cops I'll bet have never been in a firefight. I would think when bullets start flying, thinking is not the first reaction. I'll wait for the facts. But IMHO those Cops were effed before they ever got out of their cars.
Looks like they were firing with emotion and not proper training. You should see some of the issues we use to find with people when you run stress fire drills. Even some of the younger ERT members cannot contain the emotion during duress. We use to set them up by leaving the door unlocked during room clearing. Experienced officers would just open the door and quick enter (flashbang) while others would kick the door 3 times trying to break it open which invited return fire before entry!!lol
I wouldn't get to wound up about the thread or the post. It's interesting to some to speculate but knowing the truth about the overall situation usually is not presented. I watched a guy commit suicide with a shotgun under the chin while on over watch one time. 15 power scope at 85 yards. Took me 3 hours to convince the incident commander (who was an idiot) to stop telling people I neutralized the threat. Some shit you can't unsee!!lol
I wouldn't get to wound up about the thread or the post. It's interesting to some to speculate but knowing the truth about the overall situation usually is not presented. I watched a guy commit suicide with a shotgun under the chin while on over watch one time. 15 power scope at 85 yards. Took me 3 hours to convince the incident commander (who was an idiot) to stop telling people I neutralized the threat. Some shit you can't unsee!!lol
damn they were just standing out there unloading on that ups van.
haha sucks to be that dude.
yeah I think perhaps a little more care for innocents could have been shown.
But fuck, I wasn't there so I don't know shit.
no amount of bible verses was going to save his ass
haha sucks to be that dude.
yeah I think perhaps a little more care for innocents could have been shown.
But fuck, I wasn't there so I don't know shit.
no amount of bible verses was going to save his ass
Awwe, you're triggered. How nice.
All of which are bullshit and any other reason that you can formulate to excuse to not trying to get rid of the POS is just more BS. So when you get all holier than you it falls on deaf ears.
BTW, I find it funny when people use the "You don't know how it works", "you don't understand" line. It's one of those lines that gives you cover/excuse for not actually having a legitimate reason/answer.
So you don't report the shitbirds that give you a bad rep because??? Probably nothing would happen anyway, nobody wants to cross the blue line and be a "rat" or because "it's not your job"???
All of which are bullshit and any other reason that you can formulate to excuse to not trying to get rid of the POS is just more BS. So when you get all holier than you it falls on deaf ears.
BTW, I find it funny when people use the "You don't know how it works", "you don't understand" line. It's one of those lines that gives you cover/excuse for not actually having a legitimate reason/answer.
Skookum mentioned some key things you all might consider pondering.
The pay is shit for the responsibility.
And I’ll add that dysfunctional atmospheres often start at the top. If top brass, the DA, judges, and city hall are all schmucks, turning in shitbirds on the job doesn’t result in anything.
Ultimately the people own the quality of services rendered. We all want government you can vote and walk away from like a wind up toy. So what are we doing to improve things? There is a lesson in there somewhere.
The pay is shit for the responsibility.
And I’ll add that dysfunctional atmospheres often start at the top. If top brass, the DA, judges, and city hall are all schmucks, turning in shitbirds on the job doesn’t result in anything.
Ultimately the people own the quality of services rendered. We all want government you can vote and walk away from like a wind up toy. So what are we doing to improve things? There is a lesson in there somewhere.
Contractors in Iraq were convicted of murder in a war zone for this exact same scenario. These mother fuckers won’t even get a slap on the wrist for murdering an innocent bystander trying to get home from work. It’s all in the name of public safety.
The quality of policing would go up if we take live ammunition from them, only shift supervisors have the ability to employ lethal force. Everyone else is sting ball only.
The quality of policing would go up if we take live ammunition from them, only shift supervisors have the ability to employ lethal force. Everyone else is sting ball only.
D
Deleted member 113831
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What about reality when people really dont understand ?
Like several officers report the offending officer.....
The supervisors do the paperwork. Offender is suspended. All this goes through due process.
Civilian review board over-rules the decision. Offender goes back to work.
Repeat... offender is eventually fired. Civilian review board over-rules the decision. Offender goes back to work.
Offender now has get out of jail free card.... offender gets promoted.
20 years later, offender is still working.
Everybody involved in reporting his offenses and involved in the disciplinary processes that the civilian review board over-turned no longer work for that department...
That's very real. It happened. I was the supervisor who did the multiple write ups on that specific offender. Then, I had to work him after the civilians returned him to work.
The ranking staff had no say after the civilian review board overturned every thing they did. Got sued for harassment in later disciplinary action against the offender. Insurance carrier settled.
Skookum was not offering an excuse. He was stating facts. In bigger Democratic run cities, this civilian review returning offenders to the street is epidemic.
Especially when the offender and civilians reviewing look alike, and especially when the reporting and disciplining officers look different.
Those are facts yankee, not excuses. It happens every day somewhere among the 900,000 sworn officers in the US. As a former member of the "Chiefs Associations" I know this first hand, and i know first hand the US and International Chiefs have worked to correct it.
And I know that every year, as political dissention with intent to separate us further continues, the civilian review boards return more offenders to work than they send off, because of identity politics. That's a fact of life. Not an excuse.
You are getting the police service your politicians want you to have to divide people further.
On a lower level, a large number of new recruits have no conflict resolution skills from grade school on. Those recruits given a gun, poorly supervised authority, and put into shoot situations are a disaster waiting to happen.
Gets discussed here pretty regularly.
You are starting to see prosecutions of the offenders. Prosecutions and convictions. You will see more... that movement to correct the problem is growing.
Obviously not fast enough to suit some of you, but its growing.
Like several officers report the offending officer.....
The supervisors do the paperwork. Offender is suspended. All this goes through due process.
Civilian review board over-rules the decision. Offender goes back to work.
Repeat... offender is eventually fired. Civilian review board over-rules the decision. Offender goes back to work.
Offender now has get out of jail free card.... offender gets promoted.
20 years later, offender is still working.
Everybody involved in reporting his offenses and involved in the disciplinary processes that the civilian review board over-turned no longer work for that department...
That's very real. It happened. I was the supervisor who did the multiple write ups on that specific offender. Then, I had to work him after the civilians returned him to work.
The ranking staff had no say after the civilian review board overturned every thing they did. Got sued for harassment in later disciplinary action against the offender. Insurance carrier settled.
Skookum was not offering an excuse. He was stating facts. In bigger Democratic run cities, this civilian review returning offenders to the street is epidemic.
Especially when the offender and civilians reviewing look alike, and especially when the reporting and disciplining officers look different.
Those are facts yankee, not excuses. It happens every day somewhere among the 900,000 sworn officers in the US. As a former member of the "Chiefs Associations" I know this first hand, and i know first hand the US and International Chiefs have worked to correct it.
And I know that every year, as political dissention with intent to separate us further continues, the civilian review boards return more offenders to work than they send off, because of identity politics. That's a fact of life. Not an excuse.
You are getting the police service your politicians want you to have to divide people further.
On a lower level, a large number of new recruits have no conflict resolution skills from grade school on. Those recruits given a gun, poorly supervised authority, and put into shoot situations are a disaster waiting to happen.
Gets discussed here pretty regularly.
You are starting to see prosecutions of the offenders. Prosecutions and convictions. You will see more... that movement to correct the problem is growing.
Obviously not fast enough to suit some of you, but its growing.
And another dismissal because..... well,.. the brotherhood, blue line, I ain't no rat.
If you don't have the balls to stand for what is right. Then live with the consequences and grow some thicker skin because the ridicule will come.
If you don't have the balls to stand for what is right. Then live with the consequences and grow some thicker skin because the ridicule will come.
In your example I can see where it would get to the point where you throw up your hands and say fuck it.
But one or ten cases like this are not the rule and to give up because one gets through the system?
D
Deleted member 113831
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You literally have no idea what you are talking about. Worse, you seem so sure about it. (Dunning-Kruger effect on full display)
To continue to pummel you with knowledge, experience, and reality is apparently a waste of time.
Dismissal is the response you've earned.
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Not a terrible idea. Blaze orange? Chartreuse?
Could add a high viz/intensity LED beacon/strobe too.
Have we learned yet if the robbers already had long rap sheets and were let out to shoot up the place over some bullchit excuse?
Is there a judge involved in early release that should ultimately be brought to task for what happened?
Is there a judge involved in early release that should ultimately be brought to task for what happened?
Good catch on the orange. I like the emergency strobe idea though. Small and compact, pinned on a jacket..shirt ect. Could even add an audible tone to it as well in case the strobe was out of LOS.
None of my generation are giving up. And I suspect from the years you and I have been on SH we are pretty close in generation and thought processes. I've seen a few of your posts I disagreed with but more I didnt. I dont see you giving up either.
Skookum might say you have to learn to pick your battles, and knowing which is the right one within a department can get interesting...
In 1000+ people departments, precinct oriented as they are, precinct "a" will not know the offenders in precinct "z". And will not report anything. 900 of the 1000+ officers will not be aware of the offense because of the separation within the department. All of them will get tarred with the same brush though.
Problematic in those departments are the chosen few with rabbi's who protect them, or strong unions who work for their people, right or wrong, for the best outcome for their members. Union wise, it is no different whether it's a police union or a tire builders union, that behavior is the same.
The generation I referred to earlier with no conflict resolution skills ARE NOT reporting offenders at a higher rate of non reporting. That's very disturbing to any responsibly thinking person.
That's a societal problem and paradigm shift in our world, the individual over the whole. Along with the cultural divide that's being promoted.
I'm still involved in training. I still report problem children. I still influence their removal even though i am no longer paid by that dept. I am a dinosaur soon to be extinct. I know this.
And I know I am influencing less recruits today than last year. That is generational in that I am two or three past the current recruits. I do not have an answer for that as a professional trainer. Historically, this is nothing new, all civilizations decline until they collapse.
I make no excuses, I'm still working on it. For all the detractors out there, I challenge you to pick and mentor a younger person, to do something to slow that inevitable decline. It's on us all.
Maybe the ups folks should be armed to protect themselves.
They are vetted well, allready in a normally recognizable uniform.
They are vetted well, allready in a normally recognizable uniform.
Everyone needs to arm them self’s. Especially in a day and age were a armed group can open fire on a van, murder hostages, and walk around like free men. We need to stop treating certain humans as better than others with different standards. Show me a Leo that treats people like equals and I will show you a Leo that is respected and loved by his community. If your a Leo and you don’t know how to have the upper hand on the situation while treating the citizen as a.. citizen instead of a.. criminal then your part of the problem.
Is there anything the .gov pay check receivers here won’t try and justify ?
The whole thing isn’t “the criminals fault”. Some competent shooters that weren’t scared of their own shadow could have reduced the least some of the ransom shots all over the place and dead third parties.
In the real world where the people love that pay your checks, gross incompetence results in criminal charges, law suits and black balling from the industry. The exact opposite happens when .gov is involved.
The whole thing isn’t “the criminals fault”. Some competent shooters that weren’t scared of their own shadow could have reduced the least some of the ransom shots all over the place and dead third parties.
In the real world where the people love that pay your checks, gross incompetence results in criminal charges, law suits and black balling from the industry. The exact opposite happens when .gov is involved.
I think that 19 different people from 5 different divisions all making the same reflexive mistake is a strong indicator that training and/or protocol is not up to snuff in regards to these types of situations. The criminals seemed decided in their use of innocents as a deterrent and it was likely to jump from hostage situation to hostage situation until curtain call, these police seemed completely fucking unprepared for that. I seriously question why they didn't back off and rely on air assets to set up a proper ambush.
I've seen street cops take down a perp with a hostage, not long ago there was a popular clip of some officer pulling pro-gamer moves and shotgunning a perp in the fucking face, and I've seen more than a few others over the years. It doesn't happen often, but this PD needs to be well versed on how to act with that shit. No two hostage situations are going to be the same, but literally the only goal is to stop the threat so you save lives.
I've seen street cops take down a perp with a hostage, not long ago there was a popular clip of some officer pulling pro-gamer moves and shotgunning a perp in the fucking face, and I've seen more than a few others over the years. It doesn't happen often, but this PD needs to be well versed on how to act with that shit. No two hostage situations are going to be the same, but literally the only goal is to stop the threat so you save lives.
$48-71k isn’t exactly a low paying job. That isn’t including over time or side jobs. For this kind of money, people expect professionalism.
I know plenty of people making less and providing for families that still take firearms training courses.
Granted, not every dept’s scale is this high but you know the pay before you accept the job.
This whole incident is a shit show.
You have justified it in your mind that there's no sense in doing the right thing. If you can live with that, well good for you.
Seems like the only thing that you have said is that I don't know what I am talking about and it doesn't work that way.
Hmmm, somehow I think you missed outlining the details.
That's okay. Carry on.
"Pummel with knowledge and experience"
Seems like the only thing that you have said is that I don't know what I am talking about and it doesn't work that way.
Hmmm, somehow I think you missed outlining the details.
That's okay. Carry on.
I wanna see how this scenario would turn out if the hostage was the police chiefs daughter.. too many people commenting that think this level of collateral damage is ok for American streets.
Skookum's been an apologist for as long as I've ever read his posts on the matter, but I think this time he does make some good points and has some correct information. I'll stick up for him if I have to, it's been a very interesting conversation with his input too. I think we all agree that there is a problem with how this event itself went down, as well as with the training and recruiting of lackluster individuals who choose to be LEOs and serve in an inept capacity.
All those cops still killed fewer people than a typical Chicago weekend and nothing ever happens there.........
I know of a law enforcement agency that is supposed to be the "premier" organization in that state and presently performs in that manner. It has its high profile fuckups but the discipline is generally good and it attracts the cream of the crop at present.
Some time ago the state eliminated all education incentives for cops.
Many local political managers determined educating cops was beneficial and restored education incentives.
The "Premier" department is now a two class organization of "Haves" that were grandfathered into the education incentive system and "Have Nots" that are new hires with much less opportunity incentive to educate themselves and earn higher incomes.
The Premier agency for the first time since reforms in the 70s is now finding itself in the situation where it will lose excellent candidates because they are lateraling to local departments to get access to the education incentives.
Granted the "Premier" department has shot itself in the foot a few times but it strikes me that the easiest argument to make is that education generally improves everyone regardless of career.
Im not saying education makes the person "elite" or special, its not even a requirement to do policing, but it does make someone better able to be better able to find answers to questions that can not be answered or to objectively approach a problem rather than react with emotion.
My thinking is that "Premier" will soon become manned with people that couldnt get hired elsewhere yet liked the idea of having a gun and cruiser as better than being a bouncer at the local bar.
When I saw this, the first thing that came to my mind was: "are they really using vehicles with families in them for cover!?" Talk about meat shields. Its easy to armchair QB here but that was bananas!
Their first reaction should have been to start getting people out of the line of fire, there were plenty of them to do that safely and still shoot back. Also under the pressure they didn’t stop shooting when they should and could have and the UPS driver could have made it, the bad guy was dead but they shot anything that moved.
I have a second home in Lee county which is Ft Myers area.Yep, Florida seldom makes the news for crazy shit,,,,my bad.
Florida has what most states don't, we have high transits throughout the state that live in vans.
I know a lot LEO that live in the area and I can say that they all for the most part are PROFESSIONAL.
Last year or maybe before we had some crazy fuck walk right up and execute his pregnant girlfriend in front of a Walmart.
There also happened to be a female deputy that was there for something else and the same guy walked up on her and shot her face off without warning.
They brought that guy in alive, but later died
Sometimes you just never know what you are going to walk into.
Same Walmart,homeless guy in a van befriended a woman and her children,pretended to have Jesus.
He told the woman to take the kids shopping and he was going to find his wife.
The guy came back snatched the 8 year old girl,brutally raped her multiple times and hacked her to peices at a park up the road.
Meanwhile, the mother is going frantic in the store looking for her daughter.
Law enforcement figures out what's going on by watching the video and within 30 mins they find this mother fucker finishing the deed at the park.
Now tell me honestly, if you walked in on that would you kill him?
I'd have a VERY HARD TIME SAYING NO.
FYI, they brought him in alive too.
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Sounds like someone that needed a slow death roasting over a fire or something. Definitely a job for someone not wearing a uniform
I wanted to take a moment and remember the innocent victims of this UPS shooting tragedy. I'm sure their families are not as happy as some of ours... God bless you my fellow Americans.
Clear and succinct.
More of that’s “got to win every situation “ mentality getting innocents killed
Plus add in making sure no one is allowed to carry a gun.
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