wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

[Shooter_308]

Hey guys, weird situation here! When i set up my rifle originally, i had thrown a Bushnell Elite 3200 3-9x50 on top of her. At 9x magnification @100 yards i was shooting easy sub-moa groups all day every day. I shot my rifle with this set up for about 4 months. I loved the scope but wanted something a little more substantial for longer range, so i picked up a Weaver 4-20x50 and fell in love with it.

Now here's the funny thing; I was shooting the last couple of weeks with my new scope mounted up and had it cranked to 20x @100 yards. I noticed my groups opening substantially! Granted the weather was not great but nothing that would effect my groups that badly. my groups ended up like this today:

I decided what the heck, and dropped it back down to 9x, and ended up with groups like this for the rest of the day, this was 4 rounds:

I am completely stumped on what's going on here. Any ideas??? Sorry for the kinda new guy post, but i'm still a little new in the terms of precision shooting. Thanks for reading!

 

[WRM]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

My guess would be parallax error....

 

[roggom]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/c-ied67wwHY"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/c-ied67wwHY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

Those guys give great advice, but I can get better groupings then they can with a $1300 rifle versus their $4500 rigs....

 

[twoftagl]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

Check out this great article. It may not resolve your issue (most likely parallax), but this is an EXCELLENT article on the inner workings of a scope, how they can fail us, and how we can make them work better for us. Even the expensive ones.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/riflescopes-1.php

 

[Shooter_308]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

Good article! Puts a lot of stuff into perspective. I'm pretty sure at this point it's just a parallax issue...I'll check again this weekend!

 

[wareagle700]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

odd you say that. I have the same issue with my weaver 4-20 and Remington 700 .308.

 

[Shooter_308]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

very weird. hows yours holding up otherwise?

 

[wareagle700]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

Iits been great so far. I have had the scope for about 2 years with no problems but now my 700 SPS Varmint in an AICS 2.0 will not group factory match ammo. Everything I shoot is about 1.5" or 2". I dont know what it is. The scope still tracks perfect and keeps zero. Just cant get the rifle to perform like a Remington.

I tested for parallax issue yesterday, that was not the problem for me. At 400 yards everything was grouping 6-8".

 

[jimrosasco]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

you may find that you shoot better groups at 10-15 power becuase you are not trying to rush the shot for the perfect sight picture at higher mag.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My guess would be parallax error.... </div></div>+1

 

[Hogstooth]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

Guys it is not parallax, at least not primarily.

You can not hold anything perfectly still!! Your body is in constant motion, so when you magnify the shit out of something at 100yds what else are you magnifying?

Answer? All of your bodily movement!! And what happens when you see all that movement? You try to control it!!! What marksmanship priciple does this counter act?

Muscular relaxation!!!

So you try to hold it still my flexing and holding your breath, and more muscluar tension only causes more movement. You are fighting a loosing battle.

Try it at any distance by shooting a group at 8x and then shoot a group or groups at 20x, the less movement you see the less you try to muscle the gun.

Let the gun do the work for you and dial it down!!

 

[InfiniteGrim]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

Hogstooth has a point.

One of my biggest issues is seeing each hole. It plays with my mind. I love the magnification but when I'm shooting groups and put 9 in the same small little area. I get my self all worried about not messing up my amazing group. And I generally do.

Here is a perfect example. #10 is the one off from the group. I was so pissed I refused to count it! Even with i the group is around .7moa.

 

[B.Morgan]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

A good drill is to break your position between every shot. Even if your parallax is properly set you will probably find that your groups open up. This is from not building a consistent position.

One way I mitigate the desire to pull a shot from a perfect group is to do a dot drill instead. Take as small of a target as you can but still be able to quarter up. Do the drill and see where you are printing.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

While we are talking about this...

I don't usually shoot groups, but load testing sort of requires it. If I am shooting at 200 yards, is it better to use a bigger target so that I can dial down the magnification, quarter the target, and not see bullet holes, versus small targets that require high magnification?

Thanks.

 

[Shooter_308]

Re: wider groupings with higher magnification @100???

Thanks for all the input guys, Hogstooth i think you pretty much nailed exactly what i was thinking. Due to the higher magnifiction it just makes every tiny little movement seem gigantic, so the shooter (me) tries to correct it, and instead of relaxing, i'm tensing up trying to stop everything. I noticed at 9-10x, i "feel" more relaxed and less worried about pulling shots.

Very interesting.

 

[Edsel]

I would like to revive this old thread; there don't seem to be many about this topic online.

 

[Edsel]

I have been noticing similar issues.

While using a Trijicon ACOG TA648 - 308H (fixed 6x Magnification, 2MOA Red Dot) on my SIG 716, it isn't particularly hard to maintain 0.5 to 1MOA groups out to 200m (really easy at 100m), with a Caldwell Lead Sled (used in sighting in the rifle, thereby eliminating some shooter deficiencies - controlled breathing, tremors, etc.) or without.

SIG 716, 20 round groups for each. 100m on the right, 200m on the left. The black circle is an inch in diameter.

Using a Hensoldt ZF 3-12x56 SSG-P (3 - 12x variable magnification, with Parallax adjustment) on my LWRC R.E.P.R. (20"), I've had a lot of difficulty using 12x magnification just sighting the rifle in (the Lead Sled was used). The appropriate Parallax setting was dialed in. It was only after dialing magnification down to 6x that groups started approximating those produced by my SIG 716.

 

[Edsel]

I'm a novice shooter and would admit that my cheek weld isn't that consistent, and this is what I'm going to chalk it up to for the moment.

This is what I'm curious about, and would like some corrections if any misconceptions are present:

1. Higher - end scopes are confocal, meaning focus is independent of magnification.

2. Shorter - barreled scopes minimize Parallax by closing the distance between the projected image and the reticle pattern.

3. Magnification somehow accentuates the effects of Parallax, probably by significantly increasing the distance between the projected image and the reticle pattern (?).

 

[Edsel]

Bump!

 

[fargo007]

There is a line at which magnification (for various reasons) begins to hurt scoped rifle marksmanship rather than help it, but 12x is not near that.

My opinion is that with the lower magnification, you are concentrating on the reticle a whole lot more than you are when it's cranked up. Because you are almost induced to do so. When it's up higher, you think you can hit it just because you can see it so damn good.

If you deliver that same concentration on the reticle no matter what the magnification (in your scope's range) you should be able to shoot equally well.

--Fargo007

 

[rg1911]

Question: If dialing down lets you tighten groups, why are benchrest shooters using 36X and higher scopes?

Richard

 

[fargo007]

1 - BENCH rest.

2 - 75# rifle, and they are just pulling the trigger, not in contact with/supporting the rifle the same way, or at the same points that a tactical shooter would be.

A reciprocal question to ask would be why tactical scopes across the board aren't featuring 36x or more.

--Fargo007

 

[Edsel]

If you deliver that same concentration on the reticle no matter what the magnification (in your scope's range) you should be able to shoot equally well.

I thought I was (?).

At 12x, the black circle was dead center. No movement or jitters, thanks to the Lead Sled.

I'll try again, and report back.

 

[fargo007]

Good, It's where your focus is that matters. Just putting it there isn't enough, you have to be focused on the reticle throughout the entire shot sequence.

And don't fire five shots, fire one perfect shot. Five times.

--Fargo007

 

[zac_c]

This is a really good thread

 

[Notso]

I know this is an old topic, but since the thread got revived.....

While I agree with the concept that more magnification can make it "appear" the gun is moving more and human instinct is to try to counter it, therefore making the problem worse - I disagree that the prescription is to dial down. The real fix is to learn how to correctly control your breathing, body movements, muscle tension and the most important part of all..... your brain to keep from over thinking it.

To me the art of good marksmanship is NOT to mask problems by dialing the scope down, but by confronting those issues and learning correct techniques for controlling it. There is a reason why scope manufacturers make 25x, 36x, 40x and 50x scopes..... There is a reason why BR shooters shoot on extremely high magnification. Aim small, miss small.

There are very good reasons to NOT shoot in high magnification at times. But IMHO, lack of good technique is not one of them.

 

[fargo007]

Sled - good question. I think there's a line at which your zeroing target needs to offer a good enough sight picture for whatever magnification you are going to engage it at. So yeah, I would play around with target sizes and mag settings and see what works best.

There is a reason why scope manufacturers make 25x, 36x, 40x and 50x scopes.....

And there is a reason why nobody uses them on tactical rifles.

You need to go back and re-read the entire thread because you've completely missed the point.

These effects are beyond the shooter's control.

We're saying that throwing punches at the moon doesn't work. Rather than accept that, your solution is to just swing harder.

--Fargo007

 

[paintguy]

you may find that you shoot better groups at 10-15 power becuase you are not trying to rush the shot for the perfect sight picture at higher mag.

I shoot at a max 12X @ 100 yds for that very reason. Less reticle movement

 

[Notso]

OK, maybe not 36x, 40x and 50x on a tac rifle - but certainly 25x is common. But my point was directed at Hogstooth's comment about shooting groups at 100 yds, not about shooting anything tactically. So the point about BR shooters are able to control their body, breathing and muscles very precisely in very high magnification suggests that those skills CAN be learned and the body controlled by the average tac gun shooter as well.

All I'm saying is that dialing down so you don't "see" your movement is doing nothing but masking the problem. Just because you don't "see" the reticle moving doesn't mean its not moving. I'm simply suggesting that learning proper technique is far more important than trying to trick the brain into not overcompensating for poor technique.

But whatever. YMMV. I'm saying there is not a definite right or wrong way to do anything. I'm just suggesting that people shouldn't be afraid of shooting in higher magnifications. In fact I would say that shooting in higher magnifications will show you what you're doing wrong so you can then work on technique to stop that movement. If you never see it because you shoot in low magnifications, then you will never learn how to fix it.

But again, whatever works for you.

 

[Hogstooth]

Notso, you need to go watch a bench rest match, and you tell me how much of their shooting relies on the shooter? You CANNOT compare bench rest to tactical rifle shooting, they are two completely different animals and sports. As for technique and mastering the fundamentals, I am sure that you are in top physical condition, don't smoke, and shoot every single week?!!! I want you to take a 25 or 36x scope and go shoot at 100yds, 3/ 5rd groups, then shoot another 3/5rd groups at 10x, if you really want to see it more extreme then do it at 300yds. Then you can come tell me that it doesn't make a difference.

You are right poor technique will not help you, but at my peak, back in my 20's when I could run a 19min 3 miles and was shooting every weekend, I could not hold steady because my body is constantly moving with blood pumping and natural movement. You can be what you believe to be extremely still and your body is still moving, dialing up the magnification will only magnify all that natural body motion.

You can compare and speculate all you want to on the internet, but I can tell you time and time again, that magnification does not help when you are trying to shoot groups, at least not the way we shoot where we are intimately involved in the process.

There are plenty of the top shooters in the match circuit that shoot on 25x but you will also see them dial down for more difficult shots or shots where they are shooting from a supported position or awkward position, why?

 

[Notso]

Ok, uncle. You're missing my point, but I have no desire to continue arguing in circles. We are not talking tactical shooting over a barricade or standing unsupported or kneeling or whatever. Of course you dial down for that. I am talking an ordinary day at the range shooting groups on paper @ 100 yds from the bench or prone off a bipod and rear bag. You know, the question that started all this. If you cannot control your breathing and body enough to shoot accurately on 25x in that environment, then your technique is poor and dialing down is not going to change anything. If your reticle is moving up and down in 25x with your breathing, then its also moving up and down in 10x at exactly the same way. You just don't see it. I just think having to dial down when shooting off a bench or prone supported is a crutch for poor skills and bad technique. Which in NO WAY is related to the tactical stages where you are under pressure and in weird positions on most stages where lower magnification to acquire and engage the target rapidly absolutely makes sense. Apples and oranges.

 

[Edsel]

Good, It's where your focus is that matters. Just putting it there isn't enough, you have to be focused on the reticle throughout the entire shot sequence.

And don't fire five shots, fire one perfect shot. Five times.

--Fargo007

The weather simply isn't cooperating.

It's not really the cold that's annoying at the moment, but the wind!

Maybe this Friday

 

[fargo007]

Ok, uncle. You're missing my point, but I have no desire to continue arguing in circles. We are not talking tactical shooting over a barricade or standing unsupported or kneeling or whatever. Of course you dial down for that. I am talking an ordinary day at the range shooting groups on paper @ 100 yds from the bench or prone off a bipod and rear bag. You know, the question that started all this. If you cannot control your breathing and body enough to shoot accurately on 25x in that environment, then your technique is poor and dialing down is not going to change anything. If your reticle is moving up and down in 25x with your breathing, then its also moving up and down in 10x at exactly the same way. You just don't see it. I just think having to dial down when shooting off a bench or prone supported is a crutch for poor skills and bad technique. Which in NO WAY is related to the tactical stages where you are under pressure and in weird positions on most stages where lower magnification to acquire and engage the target rapidly absolutely makes sense. Apples and oranges.

You have this all so completely bass-ackwards it's not funny. High magnification is actually the crutch.


You have convinced yourself that everyone not using a crutch isn't walking the right way.

You've now got the same advice from two different owners of long range training companies, and at least one other shooter I personally know and respect in here to have extensive competitive experience. This is not to say that we know everything because we run training companies. But we do have the experience of seeing a lot of shooters show up completely invested in using high magnification exclusively and fail, only to retrain them and shrink their group sizes significantly.

So when we are giving counsel on this, please know that it comes not from a religious belief, a guess, or a desire to engage in a pissing contest, but from retraining countless others who are coming at this from the exact same position that you are: Lost in the fog. Convincing themselves that "more is better", "it's there so I'm supposed to use it", "that's just how I've always done it so it's okay", or have otherwise formed a habit of shooting that way and are attempting to defend it rather than give that crutch up and take those first few steps forward into improving their shooting.

--Fargo007

 

[Notso]

fair enough

 

[Edsel]

I'm a novice shooter and would admit that my cheek weld isn't that consistent,...

...2. Shorter - barreled scopes minimize Parallax by closing the distance between the projected image and the reticle pattern.

Good, It's where your focus is that matters. Just putting it there isn't enough, you have to be focused on the reticle throughout the entire shot sequence.

And don't fire five shots, fire one perfect shot. Five times.

--Fargo007

Got to take the rifle out to the range today, and I think I've figured it out.

Being more conscious (I would have used the word cognizant, but I've come to hate it so much after hearing it used ad nauseum in conjunction with "surroundings" and "situational awareness" by the tacticoolisti) of what I was doing, it seems that I've exposed what appears to be really poor cheek weld and consequent parallax issues.

I have to say that the Aimpoints and ACOGs have spoiled me rotten, in that they make it way too easy to land hits in the right place with poor form.

I really suspect that shorter scope lengths with fixed magnification = minimal parallax.

Using footlong German glass, the game changes entirely... Despite having appropriate parallax settings dialed in.

 

[Notso]

Using footlong German glass, the game changes entirely... Despite having appropriate parallax settings dialed in.

What do you mean by "having appropriate parallax settings dialed in"? Don't rely on the scope markings to set your parallax. They will get you in the ballpark, but are by no means precise. You can be shooting at exactly 300 yds, have the parallax dialed to 300 and still not have the parallax set correctly.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Shooter/target analysis is easy when facts about the matter are organized. Since all firing takes place at the rifle: call/strike corollary, grouping assessment, shooter observation and questioning will reveal any and all source/s of error. Yet, if the novice shooter does not have the resources necessary to analyze shot placement, he can still correct errors by simply concentrating on the proper application of sights to distance/conditions, the principles of marksmanship, and the elements and factors of a steady position. By concentrating on what's important to good shooting, the elusive source of error does not need to be discerned.

Since all errors originate with incorrect sight adjustment, inconsistent sight alignment and/or rifle movement, the shooter can eliminate error by following a firing procedure which supports recognition of proper execution of the two firing tasks and correct sight adjustment for flat ground distance, wind and target movement.

1. Shoulder the rifle cognizant of the factors of a steady position, but without consideration of target, that's to say, build the position without looking at the target. Looking at the target will cause the shooter to unconsciously steer to it, thus NPA is not realized.
2. Adjust NPA for desired hold.
3. Focus on front sight or reticle.
4. Pull trigger SMOOTHLY.
5. Follow through. Following though properly allows the shot to be called, which is the greatest aid to understanding whether the origin of error was about not adjusting sights correctly for distance, and conditions, or not maintaining a steady position.

And remember, since the only thing we know for sure about holes on target is that is where the barrel was pointed, make these actions paramount: properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment and pull the trigger without moving it utilizing smooth trigger control.

 

[fargo007]

1. Shoulder the rifle cognizant of the factors of a steady position, but without consideration of target, that's to say, build the position without looking at the target. Looking at the target will cause the shooter to unconsciously steer to it, thus NPA is not realized.
2. Adjust NPA for desired hold.

I like where you went with this. You can have NPOA or you can 'settle' for NPOA "ish."

--Fargo007

 

[TroyMN]

I also thought higher magnification was the way to go. I like 20x plus. I am going to try the test, 5 round groups at mid (12x) and high (25x) magnifications. Question about the target, do you use same target ? Do you use a larger target for the lower mag? What helps keep the test fair?
Thanks
Troy

 

[TireMan]

Just out of curiosity... Is anyone using wind flags for this comparison?

 

[fargo007]

I also thought higher magnification was the way to go. I like 20x plus. I am going to try the test, 5 round groups at mid (12x) and high (25x) magnifications. Question about the target, do you use same target ? Do you use a larger target for the lower mag? What helps keep the test fair?
Thanks
Troy

Choose a target size that presents an appropriate sight picture for you. At 12x, most 100Y zero targets will be just fine as-is.

--Fargo007

 

[TroyMN]

This is my first test @200 yards. I am going to try again with a less busy target. It seemed to have a very good sight picture at 12x. When I look at the group....it seems the 25x is better in this 1st test
FYI I did adjust windage between groups

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

The answer is so obvious, and I can't believe you all have overlooked it.


At the higher magnification, Shooter_308's bullets are taking longer to go to sleep. :whistling:

 

[RTK]

No body has mentioned mirage yet......... Where I shoot at times I am in the dirt prone, there always seems to be some mirage, on lower power settings I tend not to chase the target as much, which I shouldn't do in the first place..

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I think the first responder got it right, parallax error, which increases with magnification/distance.

 

[TroyMN]

There is a local precision shooting class I would like to attend. It sounds like my NPOA needs serious work. My built position some times is only within (8 1/2 x 11MOA). Some times I consider my position ok if I let go of the rifle and it stays on the paper target. Is natural point of aim when you almost let go of your rifle and relax and it stays on target or that you just close your eyes and relax and open your eyes again it's on target?
Here is my next ( poor all around )
12x vs 25x target attempt. Only @ 100 yards snowing too hard to see the 200 yard targets.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

i'll toss in a theory, four words: aim small, miss small

through the optic on a lower mag it "appears" your aiming at a smaller target. concentration increases, automatic return to fundamentals.

on higher mag, the mind "thinks" it's trying to hit the "appearance" of a larger target, and being a "chipshot" the mind says hey i can get away with this, turning off the attention to fundamentals causing a sloppier shot.

ever notice on a higher mag, the crosshairs tend to move around due to grip pressure, breathing etc, then while trying to correct you overcompensate, causing more movement?

add in RTK's & NOTSO's posts and there you have it.

try shooting with no spot at all, just the center of a blank paper. do it on 5 sheets, both on high and low mag then stack the paper on top of each other the 5 sheets on low mag, then a seperate stack on high mag, then measure your groups and you'll see something amazing. by tricking your brain that you are shooting at "nothing" the mind games go away and the same concentrate (usually) is used to try to hit "nothing" whether on high or low mag. your groups should remain the same size on both settings.

 

[BKennedy]

I wish I had found this thread yesterday. Took my rifle out today with a bunch of ammo and generally shot like shit. Best group of the day was .6 inches @ 100 yards shooting off a bipod but everything else was over an inch. As bad as I was doing I figure this group was just luck. I had the magnification dialed up all day but for some reason on the last group I backed it off and stacked rounds on each other (which is what I expected to begin with). I was really thinking I had a gun problem, guess not.

Thank you for a informative thread.

 

[sandwarrior]

I'm inclined to go with parallax as the main problem. I shoot groups from the prone just like the bench and they are nice and tight with high magnification. Pretty tight with lower magnification. But the problem I have when I don't get parallax just right copies what the OP has. In this case the OP is trying to shoot groups not hit a target. So, I don't believe dialing down is the solution. In the higher power you have a chance to see what you are doing vs. the POA.

This also ties into what Sterling Shooter has said. Without verifying your NPOA you are bound to be shooting around in circles without knowing why. A scope out of parallax adjustment can be overcome by highly refining the information SS gave him. Holding the rifle the exact same every time. Supported correctly and then achieving the same sight picture through the scope each time because his head comes down on the rifle the same way every time. Seeing the scope eyebox come into view each time the same way. Seeing the black disappear around the edges, as you bring your eye in, concentrically with the edge of the scope. Checking your NPOA when you get to this point helps minimize movement during aiming and follow-through after the shot.

It would be best to address each issue in turn. I would start with NPOA. Verify you are good then move to parallax.