Gunsmithing will this get around the atf rules legally ?

[1911fan]

Jesus wept. Grammar Nazi rant inside.

Seems like the issue has been settled, and I'm just going to post my usual rant about punctuation and grammar. Most of us in this game make enough money to buy and feed our toys through a job. Most of our jobs require education and training, ergo, most of us have enough schooling to use proper punctuation and grammar. Reading posts like yours makes my eyes itch and instantly brands you as uneducated, stupid, or apathetic. True or not, that's how you come across.
You'll go further in life if you learn to communicate effectively using the written word.


1911fan

 

[BALLISTIC]

Re: Jesus wept. Grammar Nazi rant inside.

WOW!! That's a first. I have never known Greg to 'attack' someone here. He is a mellow guy, and usually has some well thought out ideas, and comments earned through his years.

unluckyjohn, If your skin isn't thick enough to stand concise criticism from Greg, then I pity you, and think you should go back to the playground until you become a 'big boy'.

 

[csi:cyberspace]

Re: Jesus wept. Grammar Nazi rant inside.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like the issue has been settled, and I'm just going to post my usual rant about punctuation and grammar. Most of us in this game make enough money to buy and feed our toys through a job. Most of our jobs require education and training, ergo, most of us have enough schooling to use proper punctuation and grammar. Reading posts like yours makes my eyes itch and instantly brands you as uneducated, stupid, or apathetic. True or not, that's how you come across.
You'll go further in life if you learn to communicate effectively using the written word.


1911fan </div></div>
^^^^^^ What HE said!! I normally don't comment on such, but DAMN IT man, this crap is hard to read, much less make sense of!

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: Jesus wept. Grammar Nazi rant inside.


Most of this mess should be done by private messaging, in my view.

The kid came looking for help, recall.

And, incidentally, this isn't prose board. Instead, its akin to texting. u kaint git it rong.

 

[Clark]

Re: Jesus wept. Grammar Nazi rant inside.

The ATF once ruled that Thompson contenders were short rifles if you had the parts to make it that way.

The ATF got beat in court. The court ruled if there is a way to assemble your parts into something legal, then it is legal.

I suspect that this 18/21 receiver question will go the same way.

The ATF will eventually get beat in court.

But do you want to be a test case?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

PM received and understood. Pax.

 

[LRI]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

While on active duty as a Marine, the term "Sea Lawyer" became part of the vernacular.

Forums have a habit of bearing a striking resemblance.

Everyone here (myself included) interprets things a little differently. Ultimately the venue for deciding who's right is a court room.

I think I can speak for everyone here bud (OP) that this is the last place you want to end up.

Good luck.


C.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DVC Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ATF has ruled (two years ago?) that the <span style="text-decoration: underline">lower is a pistol</span> until a 4473 describes it differently and then it better have a stock on it. </div></div>

I was waiting for someone else to correct this but it looks to have been overlooked in the heat of things.

We need to be very clear on the actual rules and definitions of what an "<span style="font-weight: bold">other</span>" is.

ATF classifies all bare receivers meaning one without a barrel as an "<span style="font-weight: bold">other</span>". Once it has a barrel attached it becomes a handgun, rifle or NFA item. They clarrify further that even if the receiver can only be made into a rifle or shotgun it is still a firearm "<span style="font-weight: bold">other</span>" than a rifle or shotgun and cannot be transfered to anyone under the age of 21. Receivers are also exempt from the multiple sales form since they are not pistols or revolvers.

 

[tbugher62]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

The minute someone from the ATF reads this post,you will have a knock on your door. I strongly suggest you forget about the lowers and stay away from guns until you turn 21!

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DVC Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ATF has ruled (two years ago?) that the <span style="text-decoration: underline">lower is a pistol</span> until a 4473 describes it differently and then it better have a stock on it. </div></div>

I was waiting for someone else to correct this but it looks to have been overlooked in the heat of things.

We need to be very clear on the actual rules and definitions of what an "<span style="font-weight: bold">other</span>" is.

ATF classifies all bare receivers meaning one without a barrel as an "<span style="font-weight: bold">other</span>". Once it has a barrel attached it becomes a handgun, rifle or NFA item. They clarrify further that even if the receiver can only be made into a rifle or shotgun it is still a firearm "<span style="font-weight: bold">other</span>" than a rifle or shotgun and cannot be transfered to anyone under the age of 21. Receivers are also exempt from the multiple sales form since they are not pistols or revolvers. </div></div>

Do you have a cite for this? <span style="text-decoration: line-through">The letter I read from ATF did not explain it this way a few years ago</span> (never rely on memory!) when they came out with the idea. I have a lower that went through as "other" but have not seen it in the handbook.

EDIT: Found it. http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2009/07/070709-openletter-ffl-gca.pdf

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nevada Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The minute someone from the ATF reads this post,you will have a knock on your door. I strongly suggest you forget about the lowers and stay away from guns until you turn 21!</div></div>

^^^^^I have to agree with this.
Its understood why you are asking, and what you asked for, BUT the whole title of your post has 2 meanings. Implied intent (what you are asking), and perceived intent (how somoeone else will interpret this). Several folks that have been in this world for a long time have given you your answers. The general consensus is return them and wait till your of age. Despite popular beliefs in the world of todays youth, there is not a PUBLIC FORUM with people freely posing info how to bypass laws.
If they do, they are idiots, and that forum will not last long.

Also, don't buy into the crap of people trying to get you to challenge the law. I respect a person who challenges it if they are right, and are going to win and actually make a change that is positive. But dont listin to the idiots that say do what you want, its your right. They are usually the first ones to say it, but the last ones to do it. I don't trust the advice of anyone who is not willing to fall on their own sword, but want everyone else to do it for them.

If you don't do your part the way it should be done, and you use a vendor or smith that is less educated in the FFL laws, the results can be bad on both ends. You could find yourself in court, and like Chad said, if you are in the wrong, a courtroom is NOT where you want to be told. Not to mention the vendor/smith will most likely be looking for a new trade after they loose their licensing.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

I wouldn't have said it if I wasn't prepared to back it up. A receiver doesnt fit into the definitions of either a rifle or a shotgun so it is a "firearm" but not defined as a handgun or rifle or shotgun. It also doesn't fir into the definitions of any NFA items. Here is the actual laws in their original language.

From the form 4473 question 18 instructions.

If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is
still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still arc
"firearms" by definition. and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other
firearms. See Section 92 I(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it
unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any
person undcr the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm. to include
one rhat can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun
or riflc." it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, Also, note
that multiple sales forms arc not required for frames or receivers of any
firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers"
under Section 923(g)(3)(a).


GCA
Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful:

(1) or any person:


(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver:

(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;


From Sec 921 Definitions.

(3) The term "firearm" means

(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;

(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;



(5) The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


(7) The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger


(29) The term "handgun" means;

(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and

(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.


It took me awhile to sift this out of the law books. The letter you showed sums it up pretty close other than the comentary mentioning a rifle stock. That is not verbatem. I didn't see you had included that until I had this ready. I had so much time in this post I'm putting it up anyway. Case it comes up again it will all be in one place.

Now back to making the donuts.

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

Just think how short this thread would have been if someone had posted those two items right off the bat?

 

[jasonZ]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

Here is where you start.
http://www.atf.gov/
They can surely clarify any questions that you have on any firearms situation that you may encounter. I'm not an FFL holder or anything above a simple person who likes guns. I don't have all the knowledge in the world, but I'm smart enough to think that if I have a question....why not just go to the top and get it sorted out. I had a local FFL holder tell me that I could not ship a rifle to an FFL and that he had to do it, or I was breaking the law. I had seen it done and had bought items off this site and others that had to be shipped to an FFL and these items were shipped from an individual, so I called the KC office and spoke with an agent. It took less that 10 minutes of my time! I was informed that an individual could ship a rifle, not a handgun, to an FFL holder with no worry of violating any ATF laws. It was quick simple and easy. Oh and yes, grammar goes a long ways with most people. Texting is texting, but communicating properly in the adult world is crucial and key.

PS-there are phone numbers on the site too!

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

TacticalJ,
There is a flip side to what seems like a logical argument you just put forth. You can call the field office and get two different answers for the same question depending on who you talk to.

Just like a patrol officer does not know all the laws, neither do some ATF agents and like that patrol officer, are prone to give an "answer" and letting you sort it out.

What I'm trying to say is that the internet has shown that calling the source is not always the best way to get a straight answer and asking those who deal with it "what is the SOP" has merit on some questions.

NFA marking of a shotgun barrel is a good example.

 

[jasonZ]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

Understood very well! I know some law enforcement and I would agree with you 100%. I just think that there's better places to start with this conversation than on an internet forum. Not bashing the OP, but why ask internet folk when you can simply call the people "who should know better then most". Not to say that's the case, but it seems very logical. Kinda like asking a gynecologist about a brain problem, or asking a plumber about electrical problems. They may know, but wouldn't the proper person probably know better?

 

[Bryan27]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: unluckyjohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey guys im 19 years old and i bought 2 stripped lowers during the black Friday sale but when i went to the gun store i found out u had to be 21 to buy a stripped lower even the man working behind the counter didn't know you had to be 21 to buy one so my plan is to put a upper and a stock on making it a rifle do you think the store can do the ffl transfer then? i like the people that work in the store i dont want any one to get in trouble they are good people from what i can tell. and the upper and stocks will be barrowed from a friends ar i don't have the money to buy the parts right now what do ya'll think or any idea's?????</div></div>

Here's what you do since everyone has already pissed on your cornflakes about skirting the atf regulations with the lowers you ordered. Go to a gun show and buy some lowers, period. Face to face, cash in hand, walk up to someone that has some lowers and make a trade..your cash for his lowers. No paperwork, no problems, no questions and no grey areas. There are tons of them at gun shows from the guys that bought them back in '08 and still getting rid of them.

 

[1911fan]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

...and, still a felony. Next idea, please!


1911fan

 

[Bryan27]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and, still a felony. Next idea, please!


1911fan</div></div>

Incorrect, it is not illegal for an < 21 year old to own a receiver. It's not illegal for an < 21 year old to buy a receiver. It's not illegal for a private individual to sell a receiver to an < 21 year old. The only thing illegal would be for an FFL licensee to sell or transfer said receiver. Same thing with handguns, it's not illegal for an 18 year old to own one, it's illegal for an FFL to sell them one. AKA "the gunshow exemption", one reason the anti gun crowd gets all hot about gun shows, they think it's just gang bangers and felons buying their next murder weapon without any paper trail.

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

That can change by state. My understanding is that Oregon has a "gunshow law" that nips F2F in the bud requiring all (licensee or non) to do a NICS check before transfer. You can do it away from a gunshow (answer a newspaper ad) in Oregon but not at one.

 

[Bryan27]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DVC Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That can change by state. My understanding is that Oregon has a "gunshow law" that nips F2F in the bud requiring all (licensee or non) to do a NICS check before transfer. You can do it away from a gunshow (answer a newspaper ad) in Oregon but not at one.</div></div>

Point being, though, is that it CAN be done legally and that purchasing and owning a receiver is not illegal.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

This is a test. I will help you out by highlighting the parts the balif is going to read at your trial should you be caught providing receivers to kids under 21.

Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

<span style="color: #FF0000">(a) It shall be unlawful:

(1) or any person:</span>


(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver:

(1) <span style="color: #FF0000">any firearm </span>or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, <span style="color: #FF0000">if the firearm,</span>, or ammunition <span style="color: #FF0000">is other than a shotgun or rifle </span>or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to <span style="color: #FF0000">any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;</span>

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

Actually that's wrong I believe.

The 922 quote you have "(a) It shall be unlawful: (1) or any person:" is applicable to INTERSTATE COMMERCE

Unless you interpret buying a firearm as "dealing in firearms" which would mean state sovereignty is null and void if done inside the state. I think Montana just proved that incorrect with their "we can make any gun we want as long as it stays in the state" position didn't they? Not up to date on where that train of thought went.

In a world were the Feds are telling states like AZ that you can't obey the law and send illegals back, what the law says means very little to the Feds these days.

Selling to a < 21 (handgun) is only restricted to a licensee I 'm pretty sure. You quote of 922 does not convince me otherwise. Do you have other supporting documents for this position?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-HEAD-
Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

-STATUTE-
(a) It shall be unlawful -
(1) for any person -
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in
interstate or foreign commerce; or
(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to
engage in the business of importing or manufacturing
ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship,
transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign
commerce;</div></div>

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C44.txt

 

[Bryan27]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a test. I will help you out by highlighting the parts the balif is going to read at your trial should you be caught providing receivers to kids under 21.

Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

<span style="color: #FF0000">(a) It shall be unlawful:

(1) or any person:</span>


(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver:

(1) <span style="color: #FF0000">any firearm </span>or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, <span style="color: #FF0000">if the firearm,</span>, or ammunition <span style="color: #FF0000">is other than a shotgun or rifle </span>or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to <span style="color: #FF0000">any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;</span> </div></div>

Both points are irrelevant to the gunshow scenario. As DVC Guns so elequently pointed out, the first part is about interstate and foriegn commerce, not John Smith selling to Joe Blow at a gunshow. Second part cautions of the responsibility of a licensee, AKA FFL, who isn't necessarily the person you are buying from at a gunshow.

I've never sold a gun in my life, don't plan on it either. I've bought many and several of them before I turned 21 years old. What would the crime be for me, as a non-FFL holder aka "licensee" as the BATF reffers to it, for selling a lower to a 19 year old.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

When it comes to the law, I read the latest version

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

and if I still have questions I would consult an attorney. I suggest you do the same. The last thing I would do is bet my license or freedom on the advice I received from a stranger on an internet forum.

I am crystal clear in my case is I cannot sell or give a receiver to someone under 21.

 

[Bryan27]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When it comes to the law, I read the latest version

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

and if I still have questions I would consult an attorney. I suggest you do the same. The last thing I would do is bet my license or freedom on the advice I received from a stranger on an internet forum.

<span style="color: #FF0000">I am crystal clear in my case is I cannot sell or give a receiver to someone under 21.</span> </div></div>

If your case is that you hold an FFL of some sort, then in your case you are correct. In my case, I don't hold and FFL of any kind and could legally sell any firearm to any person who could legally own said firearm.

 

[Togeneral99]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

Ok, First some of you guys need to actually READ the 4473 that you are filling out!

Section "B" Question 18 has listed:

&#9688;Handgun
&#9688;Long gun
&#9688;Other firearm (Frame, Receiver, Etc.)<-- This is the one that would be checked when you buy a stripped lower

if you read the rules for question #18 it states since it is an "other" type of firearm you have to be 21 or older.

REGARDLESS...you can still purchase this type of receiver from an individual and own even if you are under 21.
A gift purchase by the boys mother would be very difficult to try and call a straw purchase

As for all of the stuff posted above:

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">This only applies if you hold an FFL.</span></span>

Hell people sell handguns in the newspaper face to face with no ATF problems all day long (yet another reason not to live in a communist state, Read....New Jersey, New York, Kommifornia, etc.)
don't believe me try VAGUNTRADER.COM and see for yourself how guns are sold from one individual to the next COMPLETELY LEGALLY!

Get mom to make it a xmas present or buy a couple from an individual - AR lowers are a dime a dozen.

If someone believes this info to be wrong feel free to PM me for your correction!

 

[Truno223]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

Just curious, how long has the FFL to <21 receiver law been around?

 

[LRI]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

Everyone here sounds like an intelligent person.

With that in mind isn't it interesting that it takes this much deliberation over whether this kid can buy a stupid gun part. Maybe its time the laws get spelled out in simple english and not lawyerese. . .

Its a wonder the human race manages to survive. . .

 

[the gman]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

BTW, Mr. Dixon, your annual limit on assembling firearms sans FAET is 50 rather than 40. Talking to TTB is a PITA regarding FAET. In the same way that assembling suppressors does count towards your manufacturing limit (but are FAET exempt) so do firearms you build exclusively for LE or Govt use that are also FAET exempt. I argued fairly extensively with TTB that neither cans or firearms that are exempt from FAET should count towards the annual manufacturing limit but didn't get anywhere with that.

Faceless bureaucrats hiding behind BS regulations that fly in the face of commonsense. Sooner or later there will be a case that clarifies this but I surely don't intend to be the test subject....

In addition, there seems to be some confusion as to who may legally assemble firearms from component parts and what category of FFL they need to hold. In the case of a private individual who already owns the parts and brings them to a 'gunsmith' for assembly, there is absolutely no reason for the FFL who assembles a complete rifle or lower to be licensed as an 07 manufacturer. An 01 FFL is perfectly within their rights to assemble and return such items without holding an 07 license. There are fairly specific examples of what constitutes manufacturing on the BATFE web site and I have provided both the example in this case and the link to the remainder of the examples.

From the BATFE website:
5. A company receives firearm frames from individual customers, attaches stocks and barrels and returns the firearms to the customers for the customers' personal use.

The operations performed on the firearms were not for the purpose of sale or distribution. The company should be licensed as a dealer or gunsmith, not as a manufacturer of firearms.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

There is a world of confusion out there regarding the regs surrounding firearms sales, most especially when it comes to gunshop employees and owners. It behooves those of us in the industry to not to spread or add to the misinformation.

 

[the gman]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Truno223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious, how long has the FFL to <21 receiver law been around? </div></div>

The creation of the 3rd type of firearm transfer (the one that created the 'other' category) came into force about 3 years ago, so reasonably recently.

 

[Clark]

Re: will this get around the atf rules legally ?

I know 4 guys who have had the ATF knock at the door.
All got off.
The two guys just buying guns with 4473, the ATF walked away.
The two that are gunsmiths had prolonged legal trouble, one over machine guns, the other over suppressors.

Just because you are in the right, and later found to be right, it can still be costly.

The ATF spent millions trying to convict one guy. He got the public defender for free, but his shop was closed. The jury was out for 5 minutes, and came back with a reprimand for the prosecution. But the smith did not get a check for his time.

Two other smiths that I do not know, got hit with the same sting [make washers per Paladin Press drawings], and they copped pleas, and did time. I can only think it is because they were going broke. When the ATF messes with trying to put you in prison, they are staying in hotels with expense accounts, salaries, and fat benefits. You are on your own nickel. How long can you afford to fight?

 

[SAATG]

Re: will this get around the atf rules?

good reading..forgot about the 21 yo age thing for pistols