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Sidearms & Scatterguns Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

Nomad Farrier

Nomad Farrier

Nomad
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 25, 2009
138
34
NE Oregon
#1
Ok guys I've decided to drop the cash and buy a top of the line 1911. I've come to these 4. Wison, Ed Brown, Les Baer, and Nighthawk. I'd like to hear some pros and cons, and experiences you all have had with these. Good and Bad. Thanks so much for your time.
 
#2
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

i've shot offerings from wilson and ed brown.

i can't say one makes a better 1911 than the others. they are both extremely accurate, well-built, and hold their values very well (nobody ever plans on selling a gun, but shit happens and it's something to consider).

do you have a specific purpose in mind for these pistols?

any particular models you're looking at?
 
#3
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I have shot a full frame 1911 from all four manufacturers, I bought a Les Baer. In all honesty all four are fantastic and there is not a best or worst. Pick whichever you like, it will be the right answer.
 
#4
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

from what i've heard the best customer service around is from Wilson and Nighthawk of the ones you listed. Wilson is known for being amazing at taking care of customers and I haven't heard anything but rave reviews about nighthawk either. that is huge for me when spending that much money.
 
#5
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I have shot examples of all 4 brands extensively. Nighthawks are, by far, the best of them, as far as I am concerned. Les Baers are great, too. Wilson, in my experience, may have good customer service, but their pistols come second to the two aforementioned brands. Ed Brown, in my experience, comes at the end of this list, though they are certainly not bad, IMHO.
 
#6
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

why not go through a individual gunsmith? Dave Berryhill, Harrison, Yost, Rogers, Morrison, etc? get exactly what you want? just saying
 
#7
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why not go through a individual gunsmith? Dave Berryhill, Harrison, Yost, Rogers, Morrison, etc? get exactly what you want? just saying </div></div>

That's what I was going to say. The very best, "top of the line" guns come from a 'smith with a name, not any shop with a roll mark.

I'm not taking anything away from the four mentioned in the subject line as they are fine pieces, but if want top of the line, you want full custom, not semi-custom, and that means get to know your smith by first name and have him build what YOU want.
 
#8
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

another place that does great work is
http://www.springfield-armory.com/custom.php

Others are:

Chuck Rogers
www.rogersprecision.com

steve morrison or mars armament
www.marsguns.com

steve berryhill
http://www.berryhillguns.com/

bob rogers
http://www.rodgerspistolsmithing.com/

Heirloom is AMAZING but do mostly FULL HOUSE builds
http://www.heirloomprecision.com/

Stan Chen of www.Legacy-Custom.com

Ted Yost of Heirloom Precision

Don Williams of www.theactionworks.com

John Harrison of www.Precision-Gunworks.com

Dave Erickson of http://www.conditionone.us/Contact/index.php

C.T. Brian of www.CTBrian.com

Ned Christiansen of www.m-guns.com

Marianne Carniak http://www.carniakcustom.com/

Don Williams of http://www.theactionworks.com


a great website for 1911 smiths is
http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/
 
#9
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

Not sure if he has the time, but Tim at UGSW would be the first choice for me if I were spending that kind of money.
 
#11
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

When you get your first semi-custom (or full custom for that matter), you'll be amazed at the quality, feel and performance of them. As you get others, you'll realize that they're all pretty much the same. Other than choice of parts used, there is hardly any difference between them other than price. Les Baer is the best bang for the buck, but I ususally replace their thumb safeties with Ed Browns and their rear sights with either Heinie or 10-8. I much prefer Ed Brown thumb and grip safeties and feel they're second on my list. Wilsons and Nighthawks are great guns, but are grossly overpriced. And yes, I've owned several of each and have been to both businesses numerous times.As far as the full customs go, they're more expensive, take much longer to get and your re-sale market is much much smaller than the semi-customs. If you're going to keep it forever (lets be honest, the prospect that you will is very very small) then by all means go for it. Otherwise, you'll spend and lose much more money on the full custom than you will the semi-custom. And lets be real, there are only so many things you can do and ways to do it to any platform.
 
#12
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

With those 4 it comes down to features you like in my opinion. I have a Baer and Wilson and I pick up the one that suits my use at that time. In my experience they have been interchangeable in terms of being a well made gun that will run and hold up over time. The only differences to me being slight and not related to the primary goal of going bang when I pull the trigger and being made well. I have shot some several Nighthawks and Browns and they are very good, too. I would pick the maker that offers the features in the frame size that you want because I feel like the difference between any of those 4 is negligable....I am sure opinions vary.
 
#13
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oregon Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok you guys just opened up a new door/thought about having a full custom done. But what's it gonna cost? More than 3k? </div></div>

CC Gunworks will build you one for $2500.
 
#14
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

wait times for the big 1911 smiths are in the years and not months like the gunsmiths here....

Get a Wilson with naked slide, no FCS and call it good.
 
#15
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

Well judging from all the great info that you all have provided I think I'll stay with a semi custom due to price and wait time. A few months is tolerable but a year plus is a bit longer than I want to wait. So what features for a carry/home defense/occasional range shooter would all of you encourage or not? Barrel length and such. I really like the bob tails and the ambidextrous safety. Anymore you all would encourage or discourage ? thanks for all of your time and info. Much appreciated.
 
#16
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

For the use you specified, I would recommend (in no particular order) an ambidextrous safety, good combat sights (Heinie, or such), a trigger job that gives you a good, crisp ~4 pound trigger pull since this is a carry/defense gun; for a range gun only, I would say 3 pounds), 4 1/4" barrel (though 5" is fine too; I would prefer either of these over a 3 1/2" barrel), a dehorning job, and making sure the pistol is completely reliable with your chosen defense ammo. Get the bobtail, since you like it.
 
#17
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I currently own a 1.5" @ 50 yard Baer PII. It is without a doubt a finely built 1911.

A couple of things I do not care for on the PII:

The stock ambi thumb safety on the left side is a giant boat paddle.
It comes without a flared type magwell.
The front sight is a basic, flat black sight.

I intend to send mine back to Baer and have them install a standard size, single sided thumb safety, fiber optic front sight and something similar to an S&A magazine well.

One thing that is without question is that the Baer is an outstanding tack driver. Keeping all your shots on an IPSC target at 100 yards is not a big deal with practice.

I have shot numerous offerings from Wilson over the years and while they are nice, I do not believe they offer the performance for the price that they ask.

There is so much hype in the firearms world that I think guys just have to buy the name.

If I am going to drop some serious coin on a product, I expect a performance guarantee.
 
#18
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

Oregon Shooter, for a couple hundred more you can go full custom. Depending on the base gun (Caspian, les baer, colt, sti etc) the price is similar to what Wilson or Nighthawk charges but the pistol will be one of a kind. I'm busy right now but I only have a @ two to three month wait. Let me know if your interested.
 
#19
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I was in the same boat about a year ago and went with a good deal I got on a used Wilson. Only thing I've done is switch out the sights to a 10-8 rear and a fiberoptic front. Would definitely go with a Wilson again as I have no issues whatsoever. I also have a Dan Wesson VBOB which Is a great pistol for the money. At some point I'd like to find a 70 series Colt and let a great smith work it over. I would agree with most here: if you go with any of your choices you will have a great 1911. Go with the one you like the looks/feel of the most.

BTW that 97 rocks!
 
#22
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

While I do quite a few builds using a caspian slide and frame, I love using Colt series 70's for the base. STI also makes a good slide and frame set as well as Les Baer and Wilson. Les Baer and Wilson kind of force you to take on their style (bland cocking serrations on the Wilson, as well as FCS) unless you have access to a milling machine. I normally machine my own cocking serrations anyways so it's not too big of a deal for me. I do believe that Caspian and STI offer the most bang for your buck though.
 
#23
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MTAR15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure if he has the time, but Tim at UGSW would be the first choice for me if I were spending that kind of money. </div></div>

Tim came up in the Yost shop (Yost-Bonitz, now Heirloom Precision) and we've been working on a few 1911 based projects for a while. I also recently hired Colton, whom came up in the Yost shop as well....
 
#25
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

They are all good.. just pick the one you like and features for the price and enjoy. I have a LB TRS and love it.
 
#26
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I still own a Det-1 Kimber, HK Tactical.45, Glock 21, and shot the MEU-SOC Colt .45 for years in the Marine Corps. I bought a Wilson Combat Tactical Elite a year ago and have not looked back. It is night and day from any .45 I have ever owned or fired. It is that accurate and that easy to hold really tight groups out the 25 yards.
I have read here referencing performance. I think in order to really get the BEST Performance out of your handgun, you have to reload your own ammunition find the correct load for your pistol. The ammo I use in one pistol will shoot differently in another. I agree with not waiting a year to get a handgun.
 
#27
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

Wow thanks for all the helpful info you guys. I'm stuck between a Baer or Brown right now. Wilson is just too spendy as with Nighthawk and to be real honest I like the look of Baer and Browns a bit better. I haven't heard any negatives about either one really at all. Have hears some customer service issues with Nighthawk though. I guess when I do finally have one in my hands i finally have one in my hands and shoot it a bit I'll decided wether or not to send it off to a full custom guy to have it tuned on a bit.
 
#28
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot examples of all 4 brands extensively. Nighthawks are, by far, the best of them, as far as I am concerned. </div></div>

Having shot all, I'm not sure what "by far" means, all make great guns. Craftsmanship, quality, accuracy, reliability: I'd be hard pressed to find anything wrong with one from any of the 3.

That said, I have a Nighthawk, no Wilson or LB at this time.
 
#29
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

Had a guy on my squad yesterday with a Baer that failed to return to battery pretty consistently. Also wouldn't chamber a round from the slide release about 90% of the time. Gun had 2500 rounds on it.

I like Les Baer's fine serrations, but I think I'd rather have a factory gun than deal with that BS.
 
#30
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I'll counter BigJoe's Wilson Combat CS - less than stellar with my CQB, but, that was 2006, so........

I just handled a Colt custom by Steve Morrison - nice work and a good guy to work with. Call him and see what your build would cost - An Axiom/Thug cross would be around $2k and he wasn't too backed up 6-9mo i'd guess.

can't go wrong with BJoes list. but get some hands on with exactly what you want, tough to spend and then go 'i shoulda'...

TRP for 1299 at CDNN. upgrade later? with SCShop.

 
#31
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

Before you commit, you might want to ask yourself what you are going to use the pistol for and how much you want to spend as both will give you completely different answers to which pistol you want to buy.

The Baer is a great pistol if you are going to get a full size .45, but I would not buy one in a Commander size as they don't use Commander frames for their Commander pistols. This creates reliability issues. The TRS is a great gun for the price if you want a reliable accurate gun.

Browns are nice but they aren't as special as the price would suggest. If you have the money to spend, nothing wrong with them except that Ed Brown is known to be cocky about his guns.

Wilson's are reliable and have a good resale value. They are pricey though, but you usually get your money back out of them. They make a lot of pistols, so of course they have a few bad apples, but their customer service is great and they will take care of their product.

It is no secret that Nighthawk was started from Wilson employees. For this reason, they are built very similar to a Wilson. I have had problems with their Commander size gun, but their full size guns are pretty good. They have done a great marketing job, but they are known for having a few bad apples in the barrel. Some people swear by them, and others have had problems with them. I'm in the second category.

Full customs are great, but they are expensive. If you are on a budget look for a used full custom as they don't hold their value except for a few smiths (usually in the $4k plus range). If you are really into the 1911 platform, you will probably buy a full custom some day. They are nicer, but it depends what features you want and how much you are willing to spend. They are not going to be more accurate or much more reliable then the Baer, but they are easier to shoot and have a lot of pretty machine work.

I've had my hands on or owned almost every major brand, model, or custom smithed 1911 in the market and they all have negatives and positives. If you have any further questions, feel free to PM me.
 
#32
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I have fired a friends Ed Brown and Wilson, I ended up with two series 70 Colts a combat commander and combat government and they became my Matched Set I shot them both for some time and decided what I wanted done, what pieces changed. I bought a piece here and there and took them on and off grips, guide rods, slide release etc. once I figured out how I wanted them they went to Novaks.
They Function perfectly and look flawless.
 
#33
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

So I had the opportunity to handle and shoot a Springfield TRP the other day and it felt good and shot well. Has anyone ever sent one of these off to get tuned on, and how did it turn out?
 
#34
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I have had a couple of Wilson's, Springfields, and Kimbers. I currently have a Wilson CQB and love it but I have to admit, I got bit by the 1911 custom but and picked up a Sterilized EGW built Caspian 1911....all I can say is WOW. Are they worth the price...probably not but you can tell a difference.
 
#35
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

For the price/ feature I think that Nighthawk and Ed Brown would be hard to beat. Also Nighthawk will build a pistol any way you want it. I personally wouldn't spend the extra money on the Wilson or Les Baer. Just because I like the other two's offerings better. They are all high quality, and have great reputations. I've shot a Wilson and Nighthawk side by side, and couldn't tell any difference in accuracy, they both ran perfect 100rds through each, and the slides feel like they are on ball bearings.
 
#36
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the price/ feature I think that Nighthawk and Ed Brown would be hard to beat. Also Nighthawk will build a pistol any way you want it. I personally wouldn't spend the extra money on the Wilson or Les Baer.</div></div>

You do realize that the Les Baer is the cheapest of the 4 you mention. And if you get it through Crazy John, it is not just a little cheaper but a lot cheaper.
 
#38
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

The big names have strayed from true customs to semi production which is fine but they still demand full custom prices. I have an Ed Brown and my father has one as well. Fathers is the finest example of bluing I have ever seen in my life and is well over 10 yrs old when EB was a real custom shop. Good luck getting anything but SS or some sort of coating these days. CS btw sucks balls, bordering on plain rude.

SA custom shop or Les Bear for the money produce what I feel to be the most practical balance of price, features and performance. Beyond that I concure with finding a real custom builder but expect to wait and pay.

Mark Morris is soon to be releasing a semi production gun I think the run will be 500 and wont have the 4 year wait lol. Cant say more about it but its going to be very tricked out.
http://www.morriscustompistols.com/images/gallery/510.htm
 
#39
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

For a hard use duty gun? Cylinder & Slide. Their "Trident" pistol is the top tier of dead reliable, bulletproof, go anywhere duty guns. Or just buy a Springfield Professional and call it a day.
 
#40
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the price/ feature I think that Nighthawk and Ed Brown would be hard to beat. Also Nighthawk will build a pistol any way you want it. I personally wouldn't spend the extra money on the Wilson or Les Baer.</div></div>

You do realize that the Les Baer is the cheapest of the 4 you mention. And if you get it through Crazy John, it is not just a little cheaper but a lot cheaper.</div></div>

Not the ones I've seen. There only few I've seen in stock aroun here were 3k or higher, with Wilsons running the same. Both Nighthawks and Ed Browns I've seen for 2k but they mostly run 2.5. If I change my mind and see a Les Baer that I like better than the Talon with Bobtail I'll look up Crazy John. They are all exceptional pistols.
 
#43
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the price/ feature I think that Nighthawk and Ed Brown would be hard to beat. Also Nighthawk will build a pistol any way you want it. I personally wouldn't spend the extra money on the Wilson or Les Baer.</div></div>

You do realize that the Les Baer is the cheapest of the 4 you mention. And if you get it through Crazy John, it is not just a little cheaper but a lot cheaper.</div></div>

Not the ones I've seen. There only few I've seen in stock aroun here were 3k or higher, with Wilsons running the same. Both Nighthawks and Ed Browns I've seen for 2k but they mostly run 2.5. If I change my mind and see a Les Baer that I like better than the Talon with Bobtail I'll look up Crazy John. They are all exceptional pistols. </div></div>

http://www.cj1911heaven.com/

I bought a 1.5" guarantee hard-chromed super-tac with solid trigger, naked slide, and no fcs for $2k-ish (actually, I think it was a little less). For a standard Premier II, his prices are lower than what you see used ones going for on Gun Broker. And he is a good guy.
 
#44
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I like how KRM thinks. PD and Paul L. - Combat Special Evo. but now your in the 3500 range... Paul's working on a new Super Scout with standard extractor profile, could be interesting.

Crazy John? musta missed something
 
#45
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had a guy on my squad yesterday with a Baer that failed to return to battery pretty consistently. Also wouldn't chamber a round from the slide release about 90% of the time. Gun had 2500 rounds on it.

I like Les Baer's fine serrations, but I think I'd rather have a factory gun than deal with that BS. </div></div>
Don't be tricked into thinking that that is indicative of Baer's. I've owned several. All have been tight, but NONE have given me any trouble. Between me and my friends, we have owned several dozen examples from all the manuyfacturers listed. One is in no way any better than the next. Only different and, for whatever reasons, more desirable to them. Anyone who says different has either not shot them enough to know any better or biased from some outside influence.
 
#47
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gpo1956</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had a guy on my squad yesterday with a Baer that failed to return to battery pretty consistently. Also wouldn't chamber a round from the slide release about 90% of the time. Gun had 2500 rounds on it.

I like Les Baer's fine serrations, but I think I'd rather have a factory gun than deal with that BS. </div></div>
Don't be tricked into thinking that that is indicative of Baer's. I've owned several. All have been tight, but NONE have given me any trouble. Between me and my friends, we have owned several dozen examples from all the manuyfacturers listed. One is in no way any better than the next. Only different and, for whatever reasons, more desirable to them. Anyone who says different has either not shot them enough to know any better or biased from some outside influence. </div></div>

Actually every Baer I've ever seen has been just like that. New ones are so tight that it's hard to even rack the slide.

I probably won't ever spend that kind of money on a semi-custom anyway, but if I did, I'd look elsewhere.

The Rock River Arms 1911s were truly amazing for the money. Too bad they're no more.
 
#48
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

A couple of points. Every one you've ever seen , or every one you've ever shot? As I stated in my post, "Anyone who says different has either not shot them enough to know any better". Yes they're very tight. However, I've shot several thousand rounds through the 8 or 10 Baers I've personally owned and have never had any problems. Secondly, most shooters with experience with both will tell you that the Baer and RRA 1911s were virtually identical in most aspects as they were both made by Les Baer trained (and previously employed)smiths. Certainly no more difference between those two than between the identical history of Wilson/Nighthawk.
 
#49
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

gpo, I am a range officer and have stood a step away from quite a few shooters in my time, including some national champions.

I am confident that I have sufficient sample size to make a determination.

Les Baer's guns look good on the outside and are excellent range guns for someone who wants to have a nice piece to shoot every once in a while.

They are not something with the reliability and accuracy one would expect from a fighting gun, and I'm not even sure they claim to be.

I don't have any $1500+ 1911s, but if I did, I'd probably choose something else.

Then again, his guns might be a few file strokes away from being reliable for all I know. I do know that they lock up HARD--much harder than any of my factory guns.

There is a fine line between accuracy and reliability, and in my opinion, Les Baers are just too tight. Loosening the barrel fit ever so slightly could really go a long way.
 
#50
Re: Wilson vs. Brown vs. Baer vs. Nighthawk

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. My actual experience owning and shooting these guns leads me to a totally different conclusion. I guess the two guys that left Les Baer and built RRA's 1911s for them really did invent a better mousetrap. Something, apparently, LB still hasn't learned to do.
 
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