Winchester 1907 .351 Rifle

[DuneShoot]

Posted this elsewhere but haven’t got many replies.

I acquired an old Winchester semi auto in .351. I shot it a year or so ago and it functioned fine. Plan to take it apart and clean it up.

Been reading up on it and most say to replace the buffer which is no longer available. Can maybe make one out of something. Suggestions?
LINK to parts. Buffer is #5.

Would like to find some bullets and dies to try and reload. Some folks have used 556 cases which see like the least amount of labor to get to fit. It came with some ammo, little bit of brass, and a few mags.

Anyone have any experience with one? Tips for finding parts or reloading components?

 

[A.sosa]

I had one years ago, it was my Great Grandfathers deer rifle. Ammo was still around back then, early 70's, as I recall it was much like shooting a M-1 carbine and the round had about the same power. It was a heavy rifle, all steel and the action was blowback, much like a 22lr semi. I was not impressed with it but others were used in WW1. I still have his 1910 .401SL but have never shot that, the .351SL was stolen from me years ago. These rifles are more for collectors than shooters. Ammo is hard to locate, out of manufactor for at least 30 yrs but can be still found for a high price. Really they are wall hangers and good for conversation.

 

[45-90]

Cool, one of rifles and calibers used to kill Bonnie and Clyde in a law enforcement ambush....favored by cops back in the day, when gangsters brought out the BAR and Tompson full autos to bear against them, and their 38 Special revolvers.
It's a collectors item...but I'm not a collector.
I'd shoot it, alot...here is some loading data.
You'd have to resize 350 Legend or heavy 9mm jacketed bullets to .351 in a cheap Lee sizing die, for bullets ....simple.
Brass can always be made from another caliber, of you have a lathe, and collets.
So I'd resize 160 gr or 180 gr 350 Legend bullets, which are .355" to .357" down to. 351" and load it with imr 4227...then go shoot it.

 

[DuneShoot]

Thanks for the replies.
I’ve never resized a bullet.

 

[RTH1800]

They and the larger .401 SL were kin to the Winchester 03 and 63 .22LR. All designed by TC Johnson from Winchester. The RF versions were tube fed through the stock. The CF versions were fed from box magazines.

They were often purchased by local police, state police, NG units and various bureaus of prisons. State, federal and military. Many were marked on wood, metal or both identifying them as such. ie. Illinois State Police #17, Federal Bureau of Prisons etc.

The center fire box magazines were available in 5, 10, 15 and 20 round versions iirc.
I have seen a few Deluxe models with very highly figured wood and even engraving. One I saw in .401 was fitted with a Maxium suppressor and marked Chicago PD. It was reportedly used to put down injured horses.

Well built guns but obsolete today.

 

[bfoosh006]

I bet you will have to make one.

Wolfe Springs replacement recoil spring...
https://www.gunsprings.com/WINCHESTER/07/cID2/mID120/dID324

If you do figure it out.... you might be able to sell them ? There seems to be a "need" for them... just sayin"

I don't know what material would be comparable to the "fiber buffer" originally used, nor have I found specific dimensions.

I "think" this link shows a used buffer>>> Buyer beware... just showing the link.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2046702974...V4DPK9&hash=item2fa74ce53f:g:rywAAOSwfYhl3QJn

Another thread with some useful info...
https://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/thread/384/recoil-buffer-replacement

 

[mtrmn]

Thanks for the replies.
I’ve never resized a bullet.

Lee makes resizing dies for cast bullets that you just shove the bullet through it on the press. I would assume it would work for jacketed as well, just maybe takes more effort.

As for the buffer, I bet you could find some nylon washers like are used for oil plug gaskets. Stack a couple to get the thickness you need, whatever that may be.

 

[DuneShoot]

I bet you will have to make one.

Wolfe Springs replacement recoil spring...
https://www.gunsprings.com/WINCHESTER/07/cID2/mID120/dID324

If you do figure it out.... you might be able to sell them ? There seems to be a "need" for them... just sayin"

I don't know what material would be comparable to the "fiber buffer" originally used, nor have I found specific dimensions.

I "think" this link shows a used buffer>>> Buyer beware... just showing the link.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2046702974...V4DPK9&hash=item2fa74ce53f:g:rywAAOSwfYhl3QJn

Another thread with some useful info...
https://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/thread/384/recoil-buffer-replacement





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Excellent info, thanks!
I read somewhere someone cut up a hard rubber mallet to use for a buffer.

 

[DuneShoot]

Lee makes resizing dies for cast bullets that you just shove the bullet through it on the press. I would assume it would work for jacketed as well, just maybe takes more effort.

As for the buffer, I bet you could find some nylon washers like are used for oil plug gaskets. Stack a couple to get the thickness you need, whatever that may be.

More good info, thanks!

 

[DuneShoot]

Found a disassembly/ reassembly video. He mentions the thickness of the buffer.
I’ll wait until next weekend for that reassembly process
Video:

 

[45-90]

Thanks for the replies.
I’ve never resized a bullet.

Yep, serious about reloading it.
You can use 357 mag brass but its about .100" short, for plinking loads, 357 max is .200 too long, but the 460 Dan Wesson brass is just about right.
A little trim to get COAL correct and cut the rim diameter down to .410" with a little lathe cut to deepen the extractor groove.
Cheap 351self loading cases, & fairly easy that way...or buy them Quality Cartridge, who has been making them, more expensive.
Sizing bullets down is cheap and easy with the Lee buller sizing set up. And reloading dies are available.
So you could be searching for the Clyde Barrow Gang, like the peace officers of the day...or just plinking away at the range.

 

[45-90]

The buffer may be made of micarta, talking layers of canvas, and other fibrous materials encased in thermo plastics, or G10...easy to make, micarta is durable, and both machineable. Interesting video.

 

[DuneShoot]

Finally got it apart and it took some doing. Probably hasn't been apart on 50 years
The rod was not letting loose even with Kroil and heat. Screwdriver would just slip out of the groove. Stuffed some wood in the action to keep the rod out of the end of the bolt and used a big set of vice grips to turn the rod. It'll be a real chore getting it back in!
Before disassembly you can see no gap where the buffer should be providing a gap to prevent metal on metal during cycling.

Gun 'smif' tools

Buffer looked decent until I dug it out of there, then it came apart.

Will try and find some delrin to replace it.

 

[45-90]

Just bought some gun parts from Numrich Arms ... so I checked on the 351 Win SL they are sold out of New buffers at $5 ea, but have new buffer washers, used bolt, used barrel, and other parts for this rifle.
Just have someone with a lathe make one. Micarta round stock is available for about $7 to build several out of.

 

[DuneShoot]

Made a buffer out of delrin. Took 2 hours to get it back together and now I can't get the forend back on. The spring in the tube of the forend is not allowing the sleeve to slide over the rod that holds the spring and buffer in place. Will keep working at it.

 

[DuneShoot]

Was having issues getting the front cocking lever on due to the spring wanting to bind. Finally dawned on me to use a paperclip to hold it back.
She's together and we will see if I die tomorrow.

 

[DuneShoot]

Shot well.
Guess I need to invest in dies and a way to accurately cut 556 brass.

 

[45-90]

The case actually has a rim for headspace.
357 maximum would make perfect 351 SL brass just cut .030" off rim dia, face .005" off and trim to length...and then you're set. Perfect 351 SL brass.
If you were my neighbor and gave me the 357 Max brass I'd do it for free, but ya might have to let me shoot a few rds.
Have fun, gotta love these old guns.

 

[DuneShoot]

Great info, thanks!
I have a Giraud trimmer with collets for 556, 460, and 260.
But for this caliber I have no tools to properly cut or chamfer etc etc.

If I decide to reload for this it seems like it'd be a decent little investment in the above mentioned tools, dies, and brass. I did but some bullets already. Trying to decide how much I really want to shoot this.

 

[45-90]

Great info, thanks!
I have a Giraud trimmer with collets for 556, 460, and 260.
But for this caliber I have no tools to properly cut or chamfer etc etc.

If I decide to reload for this it seems like it'd be a decent little investment in the above mentioned tools, dies, and brass. I did but some bullets already. Trying to decide how much I really want to shoot this.

Factory brass was made for it for awhile...some still may be found if ya look around.. but much of it has been discontinued.
360 Dan Wesson brass is close, but Starline is out of stock, same with their 357 maximum.
Go to a few gun shows in your area see if any is available.
It's an easy conversion...If ya had the tools, like a metal lathe and collets. If not things are much more difficult.
Keep an eye out some of that newly manufactured brass may still be available.

 

[mtrmn]

Great info, thanks!
I have a Giraud trimmer with collets for 556, 460, and 260.
But for this caliber I have no tools to properly cut or chamfer etc etc.

If I decide to reload for this it seems like it'd be a decent little investment in the above mentioned tools, dies, and brass. I did but some bullets already. Trying to decide how much I really want to shoot this.

CH4d may have some other solutions for you, IDK

https://www.chtoolanddie.com/

 

[45-90]

Just went out and made a couple pieces of 351 out of 357 mag. They would be short but headspace off the rim.
Have to have a .351 dia bullet, ...so resize a 170 gr 350 legend bullet, seat it out long, so it feeds and should be good to go on the cheap.
Lee makes cheap bullet sizing dies just lube and run through.
I have some around here somewhere.
I'll finish this later...to see what it looks like.

 

[DuneShoot]

That's the issue, I don't have the tools for proper case sizing or cutting to convert.

 

[mtrmn]

Not available but possibly get in touch with them and inquire.

QUALITY CARTRIDGE BRASS 351 WINCHESTER SL UNPRIMED 50/BAG - Graf & Sons

New, unprimed brass. Made in USA. This is not loaded ammunition. Quality Cartridge is a devoted manufacturer of Custom, Obsolete, and Wildcat cartridge cases. They provide premium properly headstamped empty cartridge cases in the widest array of calibers.

www.grafs.com

https://qual-cart.com/35%20cal.htm

 

[45-90]

I know they are not readily available, most things are getting that way, especially if it's not popular.
I know most do not possess the tool to do the job.
All I can do is show ya how.
Just got home and found some bullets to put in the cases.
These will chamber and fire in the 351 SL chamber, headspaced off the case rim, with proper 351 SL FL sizing dies.
They are correct overall length, with bullets seated as pictured ..case heads are in print except cases are short on length .357 mag length, and not .351 SL length...be like shooting 38s in 357 chamber. Drop max powder charges a couple of grains.
And let the fun begin.
Remember to size your bullets to .351"
These are 350 Legend 160 gr and 358 Win 200 gr. I saw the dies in stock, but other dies might work like 357 mag then a partial 9 mm, and seat with 357 die and light crimp.

 

[45-90]

I know they are not readily available, most things are getting that way, especially if it's not popular.
I know most do not possess the tool to do the job.
All I can do is show ya how.
Just got home and found some bullets to put in the cases.
These will chamber and fire in the 351 SL chamber, headspaced off the case rim, with proper 351 SL FL sizing dies.
They are correct overall length, with bullets seated as pictured ..case heads are in print except cases are short on length .357 mag length, and not .351 SL length...be like shooting 38s in 357 chamber. Drop max powder charges a couple of grains.
And let the fun begin.
Remember to size your bullets to .351"
These are 350 Legend 160 gr and 358 Win 200 gr. I saw the dies in stock, but other dies might work like 357 mag then a partial 9 mm, and seat with 357 die and light crimp.

It was raining, so I made some 351 cases out of 357 mag, 53 pcs.
Made a sizing die but was off a bit on spring back of the bullet...they came put .352", but .352 could be used, and is recommended for cast bullets.
Hawk bullets sells jacketed and other sources for lead bullets, on line.
If your really interested in reloading for the 351 SL, Graf and Sons have the dies for $109 plus the Lee 351 factory crimp die.
For a good set up.
You can have the brass for free, and the .352 bullet die, to get started, if interested in actually reloading for the .351 SL.

 

[DuneShoot]

It was raining, so I made some 351 cases out of 357 mag, 53 pcs.
Made a sizing die but was off a bit on spring back of the bullet...they came put .352", but .352 could be used, and is recommended for cast bullets.
Hawk bullets sells jacketed and other sources for lead bullets, on line.
If your really interested in reloading for the 351 SL, Graf and Sons have the dies for $109 plus the Lee 351 factory crimp die.
For a good set up.
You can have the brass for free, and the .352 bullet die, to get started, if interested in actually reloading for the .351 SL.

Wow, you're ambitious!
That'd be awesome, thanks!
I do have some bullets, forget the weight at the moment.

 

[502Chevelle]

Cool project! There is some history there.

 

[DuneShoot]

Turns out I have 100 180gr jacketed bullets from Grafs.

 

[45-90]

I'll just post the proceedure for using 357 mag brass to 351 SL.
As some do not think it's clear enough.
Went out and cut one and took pictures to post for anyone interested in just learning or curious in doing so.

Start with a precision lathe and collets with a collet a top installed.
The carbide tool is ground at 10° and the 357 rim is .004" or .005" too thick.
Plunge cut the extractor groove at
.355" dia and cut the .050" rim thickness headspace in one cut.
The 357 mag rim is too large use the same tool to cut it to .410" some manuals say .408"
Champher with 45° tool and done.

One can resize any .358" or .355" 9mm bullet to .351 or .352" to have a large variety of jacketed bullets to choose from.

The 9 mm 147 gr HST resized to .351" to .352" would make a great close range varmint round for this cartridge.

You have to work up with these old blow back semi rimed designed cartridges.
Like an AR start low and increase the powder towards max, until it starts functioning correctly, with a little to spare on the top end.
I do not have a 351 SL but I've always like the gun. Use to see them at gunshots.
Many seem to like IMR 4227,for accuracy and 2400 for speed...

I know most do not have the machine tools, but information to get these old guns working again is the goal.

Some may be able to improvise, or have a friend help him with this project.
Remember the 351 SL is the caliber that brought down Bonnie & Clyde, along with a few others!...used in full auto mode in WW1 trench warfare, with a long mag, and bayonet.

 

[45-90]

So I ordered some dies and made a few cases for 351, and 401 WSL rifles.
This is 308 Win to 401 WSL not the easiest but it can be done, with a lathe.
A lot of brass is unavailable, at this time.
The 351 WSL is 357 mag brass.
Now all I need is a rifle to fire em in....

 

[DuneShoot]

Wow! Dies for a rifle you don't have, that's dedication.
Maybe you need mine?

 

[45-90]

Wow! Dies for a rifle you don't have, that's dedication.
Maybe you need mine?

Yep, before even buying one of these old guns, I spent $294.14 on dies for two rifles I do not own, just to see how much trouble it is to make brass from other calibers, where brass cases are still available.

So now I have an idea, and with the right parent case, brass could be made in large quantities.
I heard Starline was 2 yrs behind on brass orders.
I shoot modern calibers, but like to get the old and obsolete guns shooting too. I own quite a few that need brass made for them, and friends who want to hunt with an old obsolete caliber.

 

[DuneShoot]

Not sure if I want to pursue this rifle or not.