Gunsmithing Winchester M70 CRF caming lever in safety

[jcann]

Perfect weather today in Okla. to shoot so I went out and shot 80 rounds. Four times after chambering a round the rifle wouldn't fire with the safety off. And when I tried to rotate the safety to the on position it wouldn't rotate. The only way I could fire the weapon or put it on safe was to recock the bolt. I had this problem before and sent it back to GAP and George told me the caming lever in the safety was broken. He replaced it and today was the first time I was able to try it out. Could this lever have broken again and if so is this a weak link in this bolt? Its becoming very aggravating. What thinkest thou you?

 

[turbo54]

The lever you swing causes an circular camlobe to rotate, then contact angular face on the cocking piece. As you swing the lever further, the contact between can/cocking piece will force the entire striker rearward a little, relieving the sear from holding back the striker.

The action is cocked, you pull (OK, "squeeze") the trigger and the striker won't release?

What does the trigger feel like? Mushy/springy? Do you feel any "break" like you're used to when a rifle-striker releases?

When you attempt to engage the safety, it swings rearward a little and just stops? Or, does it feel seized?

 

[jcann]

The lever you swing causes an circular camlobe to rotate, then contact angular face on the cocking piece. As you swing the lever further, the contact between can/cocking piece will force the entire striker rearward a little, relieving the sear from holding back the striker.

The action is cocked, you pull (OK, "squeeze") the trigger and the striker won't release?

What does the trigger feel like? Mushy/springy? Do you feel any "break" like you're used to when a rifle-striker releases?

When you attempt to engage the safety, it swings rearward a little and just stops? Or, does it feel seized?

Yes the trigger will not release the striker.

After I recock the bolt the trigger feels great, zero travel and breaks clean at about 2.5lbs. When the problem occurs it feels just like the safety is in the on position although its in the off position. Before I sent it back to GAP for repair it got so bad the trigger felt like it would break with just a few ounces (after I recocked the bolt) applied and the last time I did it, it fired when I closed the bolt.

Yes, the safety acts like its seized. It frees up after I recock the bolt.

 

[Turk]

Factory trigger?

 

[jetmd]

Almost sounds like the same problem you can have with a Jewel trigger in a Mod 70?
If they are a little out of adjustment, but if GAP adjusted the trigger it should be right.

 

[krlemas]

The problem with the with it firing when you closed the bolt sounds like the trigger sear and cocking piece engagement isn't enough this happens when someone tries to adjust the creep to much,pre FN factory M70 triggers didn't have an adjustment for creep just pull weight after market triggers do. The safety problems with M70 is usually cocking piece cam angle to safety lever engagement.

 

[turbo54]

This is the part:



They aren't "prone" to breaking unless you force them into position when they aren't fit right.

You'll notice there is a front/back groove machined into the rear tang of the receiver, to provide a "track" for the cocking piece to move through. There is ample clearance, so the striker is free to twist a little.

I suspect your problem manifests when the striker decides to twist a little clockwise, decreasing the clearance between camming surface on striker and safety cam....binding them together.

I suspect your "fix" of recocking is simply, by chance, reorienting the striker in the shroud a little.

Regardless, you have a couple options:

You can disassemble the striker/shroud assembly, clean it up and retest. Perhaps you'll find a burr or something...

You could send it back to GAP and have them try fixing it again.

As I mentioned earlier, the Win70 safety parts have to be fit just right. I'd suggest you send it back to GAP with a detailed description ofwhat its doing..perhaps print out this thread or link to it.

 

[jcann]

Yes, it is the factory trigger.

I shot this action for ten years and never had any problems prior to having GAP build me a custom around it. First day after it was delivered to my home if I cycled the bolt just a little hard the cocking piece would bind in the the slot along the rear tang. Had that fixed by a local smith. Now this ongoing and persistent problem, how be it sporadic.

The rifle shoots outstanding, I think I could load pointed rocks ahead of 65.8gr of H1000 and shoot a ragged hole.

Maybe I should send it to Moon at Crescent Customs, I believe he was GAP's Winchester guru before he hung his own shingle.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

Sounds like the sear pin is walking out. Pop it out of the stock and look. It's the front pin with the big head on the left side. If that's it, be sure to stake it before you put it back together.

 

[jetmd]

I guess I missed something?
GAP built your 70 you had owned for sometime, you had the problem noted in the original post shortly after getting it back.
Then you sent it back to them for repair (GAP) then had the problem again, which at that time you had your local smith fix the problem.
Now you are having the same (similiar) problem again after the local smith repaired it.
Is this the correct chain of events?

Just trying to make sure fully understand, as I have 2 Mod 70's that I have had Moon and GAP work on.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

I guess I missed something?
GAP built your 70 you had owned for sometime, you had the problem noted in the original post shortly after getting it back.
Then you sent it back to them for repair (GAP) then had the problem again, which at that time you had your local smith fix the problem.
Now you are having the same (similiar) problem again after the local smith repaired it.
Is this the correct chain of events?

Just trying to make sure fully understand, as I have 2 Mod 70's that I have had Moon and GAP work on.

That's what he said.

Sear pin will do this every time. Staking or bedding will fix it.

 

[jcann]

I guess I missed something?
GAP built your 70 you had owned for sometime, you had the problem noted in the original post shortly after getting it back.
Then you sent it back to them for repair (GAP) then had the problem again, which at that time you had your local smith fix the problem.
Now you are having the same (similiar) problem again after the local smith repaired it.
Is this the correct chain of events?

Just trying to make sure fully understand, as I have 2 Mod 70's that I have had Moon and GAP work on.

My wife bought me the rifle in 2001 (stock Win. M70 300wsm). I sent it off to GAP in Aug. of 2011 (50th BD) for a custom 7wsm build. I took delivery of the rifle from GAP in Aug. of 2012. First minor problem was the cocking piece binding on the rear tang. Had a local smith fix it at no charge. Both Kin and George at GAP were very helpful and offered to pay for any charges. This happened on the day I took delivery. The second time I took the rifle out to shoot was when I had problems with failure to fire with the safety off. I called and talked with George and he said to send it back which I did several months later (April/May of 2013). The reason I didnt send it sooner was I needed it for my antelope hunt in Oct. of 2012. Yesterday was the first time I shot it after getting it back and it still has the same problems. I'm not here to blame anyone especially GAP, I'm just trying to get a handle on what the cause might be. This isn't a comp. rifle, it's my LR hunting rifle and this sporadic problem aggravates the heck out of me.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

Did it function on the hunt?

The only thing that could cause it not to fire is it not being cocked or the firing pin not dropping.

It is common for them to have safety lever function issues after they wear in. Firing is another story.

Since you ignore my suggestion to look at the sear pin, does the trigger have any overtravel?

 

[jetmd]

Got ya. Not playing any blame game BS. Just trying to get a handle on this and the more troubleshooting information
and order of events sometimes can help determine the cause.
1 of my 70's is a GAP 7wsm. They are Great but the trigger/cocking piece can be problematic if not 100% correct. Ask me how I know!

 

[Turd in the Pool]

Got ya. Not playing any blame game BS. Just trying to get a handle on this and the more troubleshooting information
and order of events sometimes can help determine the cause.
1 of my 70's is a GAP 7wsm. They are Great but the trigger/cocking piece can be problematic if not 100% correct. Ask me how I know!

How do you know?

 

[jetmd]

I installed a jewel trigger in my .308 and had issues with the safety engaging and also had a live round fire upon bolt closing.
There is a good reason I was taught long ago to never close your bolt on a live round unless it is on target!
After this little AD I drove to GA and had them walk me through it and adjust/fit for proper operation. Boy am I spoiled living 15 min's
from GAP!
That is how I know.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

I installed a jewel trigger in my .308
That is how I know.

We found the error in that equation. When a trigger component is changed on a 70, it generally changes the location of the cocking piece/firing pin when it's cocked. Since it is a fitted part, the safety becomes inoperable in most cases.

It's never a good idea to do anything to a trigger if you don't know what you are doing. OP said his trigger is orig. so something has changed.

If the trigger was adjusted wrong or some bedding or debris had eliminated the overtravel, that will casue a firing issue but it won't affect the function of the safety. If the sear pin walks out, it will show both symptoms.

I have seen one case on a post '64 where the trigger pin broke on the rt side. Still held the trigger and bolt stop & spring in place. Rifle had the same illness.

OP should check that as well.

 

[jetmd]

Yes, and contrary to popular belief you can fuck up a factory post 64 trigger.
Also it was asked by another member if it was factory or aftermarket for clarification, unti which time it was unknown.
My installing a Jewel trigger has nothing to do with his factory trigger.
You asked how I knew, so I explained.
Trigger school was very helpfull to me.

 

[jcann]

RJBGuns00,

Here are some pics (probably unhelpful), like I said, I know nothing about Winchester triggers. Also, there is very little to no overtravel. I guess I'll call George tomorrow and see what he thinks. I appreciate everyone's help with this matter. Y'all are great!

 

[Turd in the Pool]

Sear pin is seated. Pull the trigger and manually make sure the sear moves freely. The pin is serrated and if driven in too far it can bind the sear and cause the pin to not drop. Shouldn't cause a prob with the safety though. If it does move freely, I'd take the trigger pin out to make sure it isn't broken. Don't worry, George can reassemble it.

Have you function tested it out of the stock? Could tell you a lot.

 

[jcann]

Sear pin is seated. Pull the trigger and manually make sure the sear moves freely. The pin is serrated and if driven in too far it can bind the sear and cause the pin to not drop. Shouldn't cause a prob with the safety though. If it does move freely, I'd take the trigger pin out to make sure it isn't broken. Don't worry, George can reassemble it.

Have you function tested it out of the stock? Could tell you a lot.

I checked what I could while it was out of the stock and everything seemed to work fine. I've never been able to replicate it here at the house. Like I said before its sporadic.

I drew in again for my Colo. antelope hunt this year; hopefully I'll get it figured out and fixed before Oct.

 

[jcann]

I spoke with Moon at Crescent Customs yesterday and he said to send it to him and he would get it running right. Apparently the problem has to do with the trigger job and a timing issue.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

I trust you will tell us what Moon says the problem is. I'm curious about the "timing issue".

 

[WhiteHorze]

JCann - This is a trigger issue, the broken safety is from forcing the bolt open.

I suspect that there is interference from the bedding that is putting pressure on the trigger/sear and allowing the firing pin to drop when you close the bolt.

This is why you can't get it to reproduce the problem when you pull the action out of the stock.

Another possibility is a cocked trigger guard pushing on the side of the trigger and causing it to release when you close the bolt.

Either way, you need to focus on the trigger. Up the spring pressure 1/2 lb, add .01 more over travel and I think your problems will go away.

I have 3 New Haven M-70s and I've done my own trigger jobs on 2... ( I think I might know what I'm talking about but my Xwife usually has a different opinion)

 

[jcann]

JCann - This is a trigger issue, the broken safety is from forcing the bolt open.

I suspect that there is interference from the bedding that is putting pressure on the trigger/sear and allowing the firing pin to drop when you close the bolt.

This is why you can't get it to reproduce the problem when you pull the action out of the stock.

Another possibility is a cocked trigger guard pushing on the side of the trigger and causing it to release when you close the bolt.

Either way, you need to focus on the trigger. Up the spring pressure 1/2 lb, add .01 more over travel and I think your problems will go away.

I have 3 New Haven M-70s and I've done my own trigger jobs on 2... ( I think I might know what I'm talking about but my Xwife usually has a different opinion)

The rifle has only fired once while closing the bolt. The failure to fire with the safety off problem is very sporadic. Like I said, it happened four times one day when I shot a total of 80 rounds after I had sent it off to have the same problem repaired.

The barreled action is already boxed up and will be heading to Moon at Crescent Customs soon. Talking with him on the phone was very pleasant and he seemed to have a handle on the problem.

 

[jcann]

Talked with Moon at Crescent Customs today and he said in order to fix my problem he was going to recut the trigger. From what I understood,which is very little, it sounded like he was redoing the trigger job because he asked me what Lb I wanted the trigger set at. He said something to the effect of "you can't do a trigger job on these without recutting the triggers".He also said he was going to recut my cocking detent as well.

It's the first time I've dealt with Tim "Moon" and let me say it was a pleasure. When I do my next build he'll be getting my business.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

Are you sure he didn't say cocking piece? Detent doesn't sound right. Cutting the cocking piece translates to fitting the safety after he recuts the trigger.

 

[jcann]

Are you sure he didn't say cocking piece? Detent doesn't sound right. Cutting the cocking piece translates to fitting the safety after he recuts the trigger.

RJBGuns00, I believe you're correct; my mistake.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

This thing has my interest peaked. Rarely happens anymore. Ask Moon if he's willing to talk to me about it when he's done.