Winchester Model 54
- Thread starter roostercogburn98
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- Nov 3, 2010
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Hopefully soon it will iron itself out. I want to put it on paper and see how it handles
So a good inspection light into the chamber area will tell you if it's a rimmed or rimless case.
Added: you should be able to make a .225 Win case out of a .30-30.
Alright, I'm really going down the rabbit hole on this one.
First, can you ask whoever you got the rifle from if there's any way to contact the original owners and see if they have any reloading dies/supplies?
Next, bookmark this website: https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
Also, look for a book called "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges for Rifles and Handguns by Ken Howell", as it has over 600 pages of custom and wildcat case drawings.
Finally, without a doubt, you have a rifle chambered in the original 22 Varminter as designed by Gebby. His original designs for the 22-250 came from directly necking down a 250 Savage case to 224 caliber. In doing so, he maintained the 250 Savage 26 degree neck, which was before the 22-250 was standardized with a 28 degree neck. If I was a betting man, I would find some 250 Savage cases and run them through a 22-250 die, or even just a 224 neck bushing, and I bet it would drop right in that chamber.
I have a thing for 224 cartridges (currently load 22 K-hornet, 218 Bee, 221 Fireball, 222 Remington, 223 Remington, 22-250, and 220 swift and in the past 225 Winchester and 22-250AI) and some time ago put together a collection of 22 centerfire cases (including 219 Zipper, 219 Donaldson, 225 Win, 22-250, 224 Clark, and a bunch of others). I've got plans to put together a 222 Remington Mag later this year, and I've had an eye out or a 22-3000 Lovell for some time. If you ever want to sell your rifle and keep it together, let me know, as I'd be interested.
First, can you ask whoever you got the rifle from if there's any way to contact the original owners and see if they have any reloading dies/supplies?
Next, bookmark this website: https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
Also, look for a book called "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges for Rifles and Handguns by Ken Howell", as it has over 600 pages of custom and wildcat case drawings.
Finally, without a doubt, you have a rifle chambered in the original 22 Varminter as designed by Gebby. His original designs for the 22-250 came from directly necking down a 250 Savage case to 224 caliber. In doing so, he maintained the 250 Savage 26 degree neck, which was before the 22-250 was standardized with a 28 degree neck. If I was a betting man, I would find some 250 Savage cases and run them through a 22-250 die, or even just a 224 neck bushing, and I bet it would drop right in that chamber.
I have a thing for 224 cartridges (currently load 22 K-hornet, 218 Bee, 221 Fireball, 222 Remington, 223 Remington, 22-250, and 220 swift and in the past 225 Winchester and 22-250AI) and some time ago put together a collection of 22 centerfire cases (including 219 Zipper, 219 Donaldson, 225 Win, 22-250, 224 Clark, and a bunch of others). I've got plans to put together a 222 Remington Mag later this year, and I've had an eye out or a 22-3000 Lovell for some time. If you ever want to sell your rifle and keep it together, let me know, as I'd be interested.
.225 Winchester | Handloader Magazine
www.handloadermagazine.com
^^^ .225 win background. Seems like kind of a latecomer for that Model 54, even though a rebarrel.
Marksman’s post above seems to have a very good possibility of being on the money.
Some info on the .22 Varminter.
And read this thread… Harvey is mentioned in it as one of the pioneers of the .22 high speed cartridges and apparently had his own Wildcat, the 22-3000 Lovell:
ASSRA Forum - gebby 22 varminter jr 1885
Web Forum: ASSRA Forum - gebby 22 varminter jr 1885
www.assra.com
Ain’t that some cool stuff right there.
I love these threads!! Detective work is always fun!
Sirhr
Some more on Lovell’s cartridge development.
www.24hourcampfire.com
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=236348
Post 82 seems to reference the same gun but talks about special dies. So Lovell was offering them.
And this vvv complicates things!!
But this ^^^ is also a wealth of info.
Roosta… can you find anything on the 3000 or R2? Seems like those names are coming up again and again in relationship to Lovell. He seems to have had his own flavors going on for sure!
Excellent rabbit hole here!
Sirhr
Hervey Lovell 22 Varminter
I have a Hervey Lovell Mauser in 22 Varminter. It is set up as a single shot. It has a 26" barrel and tapers to .950 at the muzzle. Bluing is excellent The front ring has a S/147 and below that is 1937. It appears to have an eagle stamped on it. On the LH side it says Mod 98. This...
www.24hourcampfire.com
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=236348
Post 82 seems to reference the same gun but talks about special dies. So Lovell was offering them.
And this vvv complicates things!!
22 Lovell variations
I inherited a Winchester 1885 that is stamped 22 R Lovell I've searched on this and found mostly references to other similar rounds, like 22-3000 Lovell 22 Maximum Lovell 2-R Lovell 22 Lovell Midway lists 3 versions of dies:
castboolits.gunloads.com
But this ^^^ is also a wealth of info.
Roosta… can you find anything on the 3000 or R2? Seems like those names are coming up again and again in relationship to Lovell. He seems to have had his own flavors going on for sure!
Excellent rabbit hole here!
Sirhr
More info… interesting post that Lovell’s grandson may be alive and well… and a machinist/gunsmith. Who knows the 2R.
If course, all these threads make me wonder if you might nave not a .22 Varminter, which Gebby was pushing, but might have a Lovell .22-3000 or a 2R as it seems he was lobbying to get his cartridge accepted. There was a LOT of competition and bragging rights in those wildcat days to get “your” cartridge in the map. Same today in some ways…
Whatever the cartridge turns out to be… and I am sure it will get nailed down… that rifle is seriously cool!!!
Cheers, Sirhr
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Wildcat, .22-3000
Have a question for anyone shooting the old Wildcat loads. I have a old rifle shooting a Lovell .22-3000 and yes the brass if hard to find so I want to preserve the brass best as possible. For reference I have an old Speer catalog, "Wildcat Rifle Loads" Vol.2 from 1958. In that book, they...
castboolits.gunloads.com
One last bit of info… this thread has a couple of Lovell experts in it who were active just a few months ago…
Also a reference to making some Lovell cases from .223 brass. But you have to pm the guy for instructions.
Cheers, Sirhr
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@Marksman @sirhrmechanic
Well dang that’s a lot to digest, but thank you both. I’ll get hopping(Easter) on that. Some I have read, like the 24 hour campfire and some of the doublegun. I read where one guy was talking about contacting the die maker with his measurements, so they could tell him which item better fit the dimensions he had. More reading and digging will be a good way to learn some of these old guys and their ways in the world. I know the some of the cartridges of that time didn’t live up to the hype they were given, but were chambered anyway, like the 250 savage which I believe was originally called the 22-3000 if I don’t get confused in all my reading.
Another day of reading, I kinda like it!
Well dang that’s a lot to digest, but thank you both. I’ll get hopping(Easter) on that. Some I have read, like the 24 hour campfire and some of the doublegun. I read where one guy was talking about contacting the die maker with his measurements, so they could tell him which item better fit the dimensions he had. More reading and digging will be a good way to learn some of these old guys and their ways in the world. I know the some of the cartridges of that time didn’t live up to the hype they were given, but were chambered anyway, like the 250 savage which I believe was originally called the 22-3000 if I don’t get confused in all my reading.
Another day of reading, I kinda like it!
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It has a conical breech, is there a tell tell for that with a breech face like that? I’ve never owned a gun with one so this is a learning curve for me as well. I know it was to eliminate the extractor cut in Mauser style actions, but that’s kinda the end of my knowing.
@roostercogburn98
To prove Marksman's point... the easy way... is.
Pull another 22-250, decap it.
Anneal the crap out of it and "bolt size" it like you did the cut off case. It should , should be pretty above.
It really looks like that would give you the closest case to the chamber cast.
On a lot of what was said above, the measurements you already have let's you ignore "making Lovell brass out of a 223",
Let's you ignore looking at the R22 Lovell because they just ain't fat enough. Don't waste any more time on that.
And you can ignore sandywarriors comment on shine a light on the chamber, you can tell if its rimless or not. Cone breach barrels aren't cut to differentiate btw rim or rimless.
I think Marksman has hit it dead on the caliber.
The fun continues.
To prove Marksman's point... the easy way... is.
Pull another 22-250, decap it.
Anneal the crap out of it and "bolt size" it like you did the cut off case. It should , should be pretty above.
It really looks like that would give you the closest case to the chamber cast.
On a lot of what was said above, the measurements you already have let's you ignore "making Lovell brass out of a 223",
Let's you ignore looking at the R22 Lovell because they just ain't fat enough. Don't waste any more time on that.
And you can ignore sandywarriors comment on shine a light on the chamber, you can tell if its rimless or not. Cone breach barrels aren't cut to differentiate btw rim or rimless.
I think Marksman has hit it dead on the caliber.
The fun continues.
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I’m pretty sure the 22-3000 or 22R are out due to bore size. This one showed me a range from .218-.224 with calipers. I think a slug is required for this. I can do that’s it soft lead right?
Take a std 223 bullet and start it gently into the muzzle. That will tell you 98% of what you need to know. If you had an 80 Sierra match bullet maybe use that.
If you want to slug it after that, go ahead.
Based on your measurements, to the best of my knowledge, you have a 22 caliber barrel "of its time". 224 in the groove, 218 lands
If you want to slug it after that, go ahead.
Based on your measurements, to the best of my knowledge, you have a 22 caliber barrel "of its time". 224 in the groove, 218 lands
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I got 77 SMK but no 80. I’ll try that when I get done messing with hawses. They drink a lot of beer so it might be a while
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I have to go back to that guys shop in a few to pick up a Seekins SP15P. I had planned to ask him if he knew the guy who left it there for consignment. Although the ffl was told it was a 22-250 and asked me if I found out different to let him know so he could update his records. I’m not holding my breath, but asking is on my list.
So after your prod in that direction, I believe you maybe correct. I am looking for some 250-300 savage cases as we speak.
The rifle has decided it will stay in its current configuration and if I can scrounge up enough components, will be shot as soon as quickly as possible. I already rough bore sighted it. Thank you again for the information. I have always had a thing for 22LR guns, and this little cartridge seems intriguing as well. Maybe not pushing it to max speeds, but just to see and shoot some history that so many people use the results of and probably don’t even know why or where that round came from.
@roostercogburn98
How about a picture with the casting, the cut off case, and a 22-250 side by side stacked, with a ruler to gauge by ?
How about a picture with the casting, the cut off case, and a 22-250 side by side stacked, with a ruler to gauge by ?
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Unless this defies standard gunsmithing practices, there should be what looks like a counterbore, at the base of the chamber, the diameter of the rim. If you have a rimmed cartridge. Rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim, not the shoulder. You can fireform them and headspace off the shoulder if you wish. As this is an unknown wildcat, there may be all kind of things going on with this.
Can you post a pic of the chamber that is illuminated? And the bolt face? What diameter is the bolt face? (only that which holds the case head)
And, FWIW, I cannot imagine how a conical bolt face would do away with the extractor cut. @pmclaine has pics up of his custom 30-06 Win 70 with a conical bolt face and included pics of the extractor cut being made.
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Ok so has some significant shoulder setback when roasting a 22-250 case and closing in chamber. Had to trim some to get it to got so don’t pay attention to the mouth. Plain 22-250 case measures 1.568 in the headapace comparator, and the modified case comes in at 1.520
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I’m pretty sure he is correct. Time to search for brass
What's with the bent rim? Dumb question, cuz I'm a dum guy, You did check headspace by first putting the case against the boltface with the rim under the extractor? And, no pics of chamber or your own boltface? Or, feed it from the magazine?
Where's @Skunk when you need him, he might have some insight into this as well.
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I didn't see that picture from before. A lotta pics, but not that one. How far ahead of the boltface is the extractor protruding?
Same as any 3006/270 m54 or m70.
You can't see the extractor cut in his pics bc the casting overflow covers it.
You can't see it on the casting bc no pic of it turned that way to see it.
You figure out yet he re- "cast" the chamber with an over annealed 22-250 case.
Looks like he bent the rim extracting sed cast...
Yes, that's a real old school way to figure it out. Not recommended for beginners. Rooster is a brave and persistent individual.
He's getting there.
You can't see the extractor cut in his pics bc the casting overflow covers it.
You can't see it on the casting bc no pic of it turned that way to see it.
You figure out yet he re- "cast" the chamber with an over annealed 22-250 case.
Looks like he bent the rim extracting sed cast...
Yes, that's a real old school way to figure it out. Not recommended for beginners. Rooster is a brave and persistent individual.
He's getting there.
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Bent rim is from pushing the bolt forward to from case.
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I tried to chamber a 22-250 case but it would not close so can’t check headapace yet. If it turns out to be a 22 varminter then I am talking to a guy who says he has brass, so may be able to check headapace after that
Well, from what has been said and seen so far, it would appear that if your chamber is shorter than a standard .22 Varminter/.22-250 you should have enough material to take it out to a standard .22-250. It'll then be easy-peasy. No fire-forming, and easy cycling of that bolt. Hopefully your gunsmith can get that done for you.
JMO, if you do end up re-barreling that rifle, there are lots of good rounds out there above and beyond .308. 6mm Rem, any of the .284 based cases, any of the Mauser based cases or '06 based cases. In today's day and age, there is no need (or a lot of use) for a slow twisted barrel. Get a barrel twisted tight enough to shoot the heaviest of what you want. It's a lot more fun reaching out there with a bullet that will do it.
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Thanks for the mention, but I’ve got nothing to add on this. I’ve next to zero experience with Wildcat ctgs. I have been following with great interest.
BUT, I did see a cool old M54 a few weeks ago. I thought it was a M70 BullGun at first, but it was a 54. Original barrel said 300 Magnum, which I assume to 300 H&H. Was a nice gun, with several nicely done old modifications. Think it was on the rack for $1400. I bought my Trapdoor Springfield instead. Might’ve bought the wrong gun!
There are three types of guns worth owning; nice guns, old guns, and nice, old guns! This fits all three categories.
Glad I could help and looking forward to some range reports. 250 Brass can still be had on Gbroker if you really get desperate. The more I think about it, I'm not sure a 22-250 FL die will work though. I'd consider using a bushing die instead.
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Thanks for the input and kind words about the rifle. I too thought it was a 70 at first, but quickly learned different. Seems this rifle has taken us all for a journey. Nothing wrong with a nice old trapdoor either!
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Talking with a guy from GB who says he has the brass. Was debating how to finish, but bushing die is probably the way to go. Will post pics of range time as I get them.
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Rifle is going to stay as is for now. Finding the correct caliber is only half the battle. I have started down this rabbit hole, and need to know more about Mr. Lovell now. The research continues
The plan B question, will a .22-250 reamer clean up the chamber? (.22-250AI?)
I'm all for trying to make it work as is, but I'm stupid too.
I'm all for trying to make it work as is, but I'm stupid too.
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Other the plan B question, will a .22-250 reamer clean up the chamber? (.22-250AI?)
I'm all for trying to make it work as is, but I'm stupid too.
Based on the diameter of the casting at the base, VS the diameter of the 22-250,
I've had short chambered m1 garand barrels and 1903 barrels. When we finish chambered them, because our reamer diameter was smaller than "whatever" reamer was used,
We had a step in the chamber that stepped the case as well. Resizing those fired cases would never remove the step ring in the case and eventually they separated at the ring marking.
I'd want a very competent gunsmith to "fix" that chamber to prevent such a ring on Roosters rifle.
That would be my biggest concern with reaming it out to 22-250.
As to what @Marksman said about a die, running a 250 savage case in a 22-250 die to neck it down, the 22-250 is longer, and can easily be seen in the photo taken of a 22-250 case next to the hard sized to Roosters chamber case. In a 22-250 die, the neck would only be half sized.
Cutting the bottom off a 22-250 die to the right length would work. Dies are hard to cut, but, I've had dies shortened.
Otherwise, to get enough shoulder width, when trying to just neck size an odd case, I have used a 6mm Rem BR bushing die for that with a correct size bushing. (On some similar undertakings...)
Best to all yall.
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I have recently won an auction for some 250 savage brass. After that, we’ll see how it goesThe plan B question, will a .22-250 reamer clean up the chamber? (.22-250AI?)
I'm all for trying to make it work as is, but I'm stupid too.
In the past I've let my interest in "gunsmithing trends of the day" get the best of me. Over paying for things that would otherwise be collectable, but have no collectors value today because 60-100 years ago somebody modified it in some way that was a popular fad at the time. I think THAT makes it really cool, but few others do and I end up taking a bath when we finally part ways.
Yes, but you have fun, preserve history and keep the traditions alive. Some things are worth more than money.In the past I've let my interest in "gunsmithing trends of the day" get the best of me. Over paying for things that would otherwise be collectable, but have no collectors value today because 60-100 years ago somebody modified it in some way that was a popular fad at the time. I think THAT makes it really cool, but few others do and I end up taking a bath when we finally part ways.
As for re-reaming... it is possible to ream and then polish/lap. That can get very, very shallow rings/ridges out. It is time consuming, but it does work. A competent gunsmith can do it! Cut it a fraction under. Use cases with rods soldered in the primer hole and coarse --> fine lapping compound to take the last bit out of the chamber. Once you hit 400 grit lapping compound and get full coverage on case and chamber, you can polish out with scotchbrite followed by 0000 steel wool wrapped on a brass rod. Brass case will 'embed' with lapping compound and become a very effective lap.
But takes an old school gunsmith to do that stuff. Just like the old days of lapping a newly-cut barrel with a lead slug on a rod and compound.... back and forth hundreds of times until the barrel was mirror smooth. That's Pope-level stuff right there.
Cheers,
Sirhr
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In the end, it will all wash out. I will never lose money in this thing left alone or stripped down I don’t believe. The action alone is worth more than I paid for the entire gun. I’m like you and probably lose money or barely break even on a lot of items I’ve been through. I’m also like @sirhrmechanic in the mindset of its fun while I’m doing it. Might be the last thing I get to enjoy, so I’m all inIn the past I've let my interest in "gunsmithing trends of the day" get the best of me. Over paying for things that would otherwise be collectable, but have no collectors value today because 60-100 years ago somebody modified it in some way that was a popular fad at the time. I think THAT makes it really cool, but few others do and I end up taking a bath when we finally part ways.
I really think that preserving trends throughout history is as important or more than factory correct. A factory pre 64 270 like I have is cool, but well documented. The smiths that took those rifles and spurred development of cartridges that would become mainstream in the decades that followed, are just as important to our future. This element of shooting is very interesting and it see there’s always something to research.In the past I've let my interest in "gunsmithing trends of the day" get the best of me. Over paying for things that would otherwise be collectable, but have no collectors value today because 60-100 years ago somebody modified it in some way that was a popular fad at the time. I think THAT makes it really cool, but few others do and I end up taking a bath when we finally part ways.
And as we are in a new golden age of Wildcatting now (we call it ELR development)... hopefully in 100 years, folks will be looking at the things doing in 2020 and saying... "This warrants preservation."
Wildcats is how we got here.
This is why it's important to preserve the info and legacy. It's why we have a Vintage section.
Sirhr
Exactly. What these smiths were doing years ago is seen directly in modern case design. The smiths and the calibers are part of modern shooting DNA. I don’t have much for vintage rifles but the history fascinates me.
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Without the history, where do we begin
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