Winchester Model 70. Good place to start?

[WhiteFeather338]

I have, for a long time now, wanted to get into precision rifle shooting. I have a Winchester (Heavy Varmint) Model 70 SA in .308 with a Redfield 5 star 4-12 optic. It's nothing flashy for sure but it's what I have to work with at the moment and I don't want to wait any longer, I've burnt enough time with waiting and what ifs. I have not had the opportunity yet to take it out beyond 100 yards so I am not sure how it will perform when I get in the 300-600 yard range but what I do know is that I desperately need to upgrade the glass. This is where I am really overwhelmed and at a loss. I just picked up the "Everyday Sniper" podcast this week and I'm starting from the beginning and I am only like 6 episodes in but so far the names I keep hearing are: Vortex, Night Force, and Schmidt and Bender. On a side note I REALLY love the MSR reticle on the Schmidts. I am willing to save up what it takes to get a proper optic but I lack the knowledge to understand where the overkill line is for a rifle like this. It feels silly to drop 3K on an optic for a Winchester but maybe I'm wrong, I just really like the Schmidt and Bender optics. Any advice/input would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Long Range 338]

Great rifle! I've got one just like it that shoots amazing. Not sure where you are at but I would recommend trying to meet up with some other shooters that are knowledgeable and get your hands on their optics to see what you like. If you can get to a match, take your rifle and see how you do, there will be many willing to share insight and let you put your mitts on their equipment. You won't find many that would turn you away from Schmidt but there are many options out there and after fondling several you may develop your own opinion. Personally I'm not a huge Schmidt fan but there is nothing wrong with them, just personal taste. If the MSR is your favorite reticle (and its a great one) Schmidt, Kahles, and Steiner all offer the MSR so you have at least 3 choices right off the bat. Good luck, its a fun ride.

 

[PBWalsh]

Glass upgrade is in need. An S&B/NF/etc are great, but so is a NF SHV/SWFA HD/upper end Athlon/Burris XTR3/etc. Look into the 1k-2k range for your best value.

The stock looks to be an HS Precision, which is very serviceable.

Winchester 70s (CRF or non CRF) are solid actions, send it to any of the gunsmiths on here and let them build anything for you out of it. Assuming the the barrel ain’t shot out, I’d throw on some better glass, add a bipod, and burn the barrel down.

 

[WhiteFeather338]

Great rifle! I've got one just like it that shoots amazing. Not sure where you are at but I would recommend trying to meet up with some other shooters that are knowledgeable and get your hands on their optics to see what you like. If you can get to a match, take your rifle and see how you do, there will be many willing to share insight and let you put your mitts on their equipment. You won't find many that would turn you away from Schmidt but there are many options out there and after fondling several you may develop your own opinion. Personally I'm not a huge Schmidt fan but there is nothing wrong with them, just personal taste. If the MSR is your favorite reticle (and its a great one) Schmidt, Kahles, and Steiner all offer the MSR so you have at least 3 choices right off the bat. Good luck, its a fun ride.

Thanks for the advice, it's really appreciated! I am in St. Louis, which so far does not seem to be a great place to be for precision rifle shooting. Thus far I have found only one range which has a lane that goes beyond 100 yards and it's an hour drive just to get there. I have an email out to them to see about coming out there for a tour. On the bright side I have a buddy who is moving to Denver in June so if nothing else I can fly out to visit him sometime when a match is going on.

 

[WhiteFeather338]

Glass upgrade is in need. An S&B/NF/etc are great, but so is a NF SHV/SWFA HD/upper end Athlon/Burris XTR3/etc. Look into the 1k-2k range for your best value.

The stock looks to be an HS Precision, which is very serviceable.

Winchester 70s (CRF or non CRF) are solid actions, send it to any of the gunsmiths on here and let them build anything for you out of it. Assuming the the barrel ain’t shot out, I’d throw on some better glass, add a bipod, and burn the barrel down.

The barrel is in great condition, only like ~200 rounds through it. Thanks for the glass recommendations!

 

[502Chevelle]

Don’t forget that if you go with a really nice optic, you will have great glass when you decide to upgrade your rifle. Nothing wrong with starting with that rifle either. Get a scope on it, and some handloads or 175gmm, and go shoot some matches. You will have fun and learn so much. Once you’ve been to a few matches, you will have a good idea of how you want to move forward. one Way or another, you will gain some knowledge and skill.

 

[ratrod54]

^^^this.

You can move glass from one set up to another so not a huge issue. I like Schmidt as well but there are so many great scopes in the $1,500-$2000 range that you can’t go wrong. I’ve had SWFA, Vortex Razor Gen I and II’s, Vortex AMG’s, Nightforce and Kahles and found that I preferred the Vortex line. There are so many i haven’t tried, I’m sure my opinion could change.

I’ve moved them from stock rifles to custom builds and back. If nothing else, start fondling them at the store if you can’t get hand on at the range. They aren’t like electronics. They don’t go bad. Consider features and don’t forget to research the warranty.

 

[acudaowner]

only you can make you do anything. I am not a pro or a paid shooter most days I'm just happy to just keep my shots on the target , just a citizen having fun . So i have to keep it relatively cheap . My only regret is not trying it sooner .

 

[Barney88PDC]

S&B is a great choice if you have the opportunity to get one and the MSR is my preferred reticle. A S&B PMII 5x25-56 is what is on most of my rifles. Rifles and calibers come and go but good glass sticks around. Buy one used and even if you decide to go a different route you won't lose much money, if any. Go for it if you can.

 

[sandwarrior]

Whitefeather338,
What you have there is a really great rifle. For stretching it out to 600-800 you have what you need in the .308 Win. No need to change that yet. Do you reload? Reloading is the best way to optimize your rifle for now. And, if and when you step up to a better barrel and possibly cartridge.

I like the action for a number of reasons. It's got an integral lug, three position safety and it's slightly longer than the Remington 700 short action. When pulled to the rear, the bolt remains relatively true and tight to the action, like the 700. I love Mausers, but one of their shortcomings, IMO, is the bolt is loose when fully retracted.

Your stock is one of the "stiff" composites that holds up well. You may laugh, but the cheap composites flex like rubber bands in the heat. There are better tougher stocks than the one you have, but it will remain stiff when shooting. That's the important thing. If you go on to do some kind of "tough-man" contest where the rifle stock needs to be able to take serious abuse like getting run over, then look to upgrade. I wouldn't do that for now.

The trigger is adjustable to a very useable light weight and minimal engagement. I adjust mine a little heavier, but minimize the engagement of the sear. There are also aftermarket triggers that can give you a little bit finer adjustment, but that is a consideration down the road.

As far as optics, Vortex is good, as long as you are looking at the two upper tier scopes, Vipers and Razors. Nightforce is better. Schmidt & Bender (S&B) is better still. I like my USO. It's above Nightforce, but not as good as S&B. Leupold is back in a big way. They had some questions for a time, but I think they've worked those out a few years back and are producing great scopes. You don't want to go out and buy a new scope until you read and do the paragraph below.

So, what I would recommend for now, without upgrading a single thing is get some quality ammo, and shoot groups until you can nail it down the very best the rifle can shoot. That means taking yourself out of the equation as much as you can. Calling wind, reading mirage. Also shoot some dot drills. If you can shoot point excersizes, i.e. dot drill, between two different targets. Different enough that you need to adjust, even move your positon.

In short you need to do a lot more shooting than 200 rds. before you start upgrading what you got. You do have a pretty solid set-up there aleady for nailing down the basics and moving on to longer ranges.

 

[WhiteFeather338]

Whitefeather338,
What you have there is a really great rifle. For stretching it out to 600-800 you have what you need in the .308 Win. No need to change that yet. Do you reload? Reloading is the best way to optimize your rifle for now. And, if and when you step up to a better barrel and possibly cartridge.

I like the action for a number of reasons. It's got an integral lug, three position safety and it's slightly longer than the Remington 700 short action. When pulled to the rear, the bolt remains relatively true and tight to the action, like the 700. I love Mausers, but one of their shortcomings, IMO, is the bolt is loose when fully retracted.

Your stock is one of the "stiff" composites that holds up well. You may laugh, but the cheap composites flex like rubber bands in the heat. There are better tougher stocks than the one you have, but it will remain stiff when shooting. That's the important thing. If you go on to do some kind of "tough-man" contest where the rifle stock needs to be able to take serious abuse like getting run over, then look to upgrade. I wouldn't do that for now.

The trigger is adjustable to a very useable light weight and minimal engagement. I adjust mine a little heavier, but minimize the engagement of the sear. There are also aftermarket triggers that can give you a little bit finer adjustment, but that is a consideration down the road.

As far as optics, Vortex is good, as long as you are looking at the two upper tier scopes, Vipers and Razors. Nightforce is better. Schmidt & Bender (S&B) is better still. I like my USO. It's above Nightforce, but not as good as S&B. Leupold is back in a big way. They had some questions for a time, but I think they've worked those out a few years back and are producing great scopes. You don't want to go out and buy a new scope until you read and do the paragraph below.

So, what I would recommend for now, without upgrading a single thing is get some quality ammo, and shoot groups until you can nail it down the very best the rifle can shoot. That means taking yourself out of the equation as much as you can. Calling wind, reading mirage. Also shoot some dot drills. If you can shoot point excersizes, i.e. dot drill, between two different targets. Different enough that you need to adjust, even move your positon.

In short you need to do a lot more shooting than 200 rds. before you start upgrading what you got. You do have a pretty solid set-up there aleady for nailing down the basics and moving on to longer ranges.

Thank you very much for the guidance, it is greatly appreciated! I do not reload at this time, I have researched it quite a bit and I have been thinking of going with a Hornady Lock-N-Load Classic Kit , since I am not as concerned with cranking out the volume as I am with each round being consistent it seems like a solid choice. As far as I know with the stock it is an HA precision Kevlar synthetic stock , I actually can't find much info other than it's a Heavy Varmint series that was manufactured some time in the 90's , not sure how many were made but I haven't seen a lot of them so not sure it was a long production run.

 

[Action Guy]

I am in St. Louis, which so far does not seem to be a great place to be for precision rifle shooting. Thus far I have found only one range which has a lane that goes beyond 100 yards and it's an hour drive just to get there.

WhiteFeather338,

If you are in the St. Louis area, you are actually quite close to a very good shooting club/facility: Bench Rest Rifle Club of St.Louis in Wright City, Missouri. About an hour from downtown STL, west on I70. It is a private club that has numerous rifle ranges, one has 300 yard capability, one has 600 yard capability and now there is a 1,200 yard range on-site. You must be a member to shoot there and you must "qualify" to shoot beyond 200 yards. Not difficult to do, but it is required to keep the uninformed shooters from skipping projectiles/ricochets off the property.

BRRC's website: http://www.shootingstl.com/

BRRC also offers a Mid-Range Precision Rifle Class (100-600 yards) and a Long Range Precision Rifle Class (600-1,200 yards) to members and non-members. Classes are 1.5 days long over a weekend and cost only $100. Non-members may pay a bit more. If your system/equipment is up to the task, you will be shooting at 600 or 1,200 by the end of the second morning. Your rifle would be ideal for the Mid-Range Class, particularly if you are just starting out. For more information on the classes, go to the Training tab on the BRRC website.

Specifically about your rifle, I think you have an ideal starting rifle: M70 .308 with a heavier barrel and precision stock that should shoot well enough with Fed GM Match to get started. The first thing I would change is the scope, but I would shoot it a bit first to see what you want/need. In shooting around others (like in class, competition or just casual range time) with other equipment, you will get a far better idea of what your needs actually are versus from a manufacturer's website or even a forum.

The M70 can be rebarreled by most good gunsmiths, if/when needed. Your push-feed M70 is just as easy as a M700, and easier than the control round feed of the pre-'64 or Classic M70. Like has already been mentioned, the stock trigger is easy to adjust. However, if you are not absolutely sure of what you are doing, take it to a gunsmith.

Good luck.

Action Guy

 

[sandwarrior]

Action guy,
Great idea on the St. Louis benchrest club. That will be a great start to getting the basics of solid shooting for him.

Whitefeather,
That is an H-S Precision stock. Great stock! You may never need to change that. You might sometime pull the action out of it and see how tight it sits in there. A lot of people don't think you need to bed a composite stock or chassis, but stockmakers aren't there when tolerances are at the top or bottom of a rifle manufacturer. I suggest if it's even somewhat loose, you at least skim bed it.

 

[loudandproud]

They're a great rifle, but a little more limited than say a Remington 700 as far as aftermarket support.

 

[WhiteFeather338]

WhiteFeather338,

If you are in the St. Louis area, you are actually quite close to a very good shooting club/facility: Bench Rest Rifle Club of St.Louis in Wright City, Missouri. About an hour from downtown STL, west on I70. It is a private club that has numerous rifle ranges, one has 300 yard capability, one has 600 yard capability and now there is a 1,200 yard range on-site. You must be a member to shoot there and you must "qualify" to shoot beyond 200 yards. Not difficult to do, but it is required to keep the uninformed shooters from skipping projectiles/ricochets off the property.

BRRC's website: http://www.shootingstl.com/

BRRC also offers a Mid-Range Precision Rifle Class (100-600 yards) and a Long Range Precision Rifle Class (600-1,200 yards) to members and non-members. Classes are 1.5 days long over a weekend and cost only $100. Non-members may pay a bit more. If your system/equipment is up to the task, you will be shooting at 600 or 1,200 by the end of the second morning. Your rifle would be ideal for the Mid-Range Class, particularly if you are just starting out. For more information on the classes, go to the Training tab on the BRRC website.

Specifically about your rifle, I think you have an ideal starting rifle: M70 .308 with a heavier barrel and precision stock that should shoot well enough with Fed GM Match to get started. The first thing I would change is the scope, but I would shoot it a bit first to see what you want/need. In shooting around others (like in class, competition or just casual range time) with other equipment, you will get a far better idea of what your needs actually are versus from a manufacturer's website or even a forum.

The M70 can be rebarreled by most good gunsmiths, if/when needed. Your push-feed M70 is just as easy as a M700, and easier than the control round feed of the pre-'64 or Classic M70. Like has already been mentioned, the stock trigger is easy to adjust. However, if you are not absolutely sure of what you are doing, take it to a gunsmith.

Good luck.

Action Guy

Thank you for the advice, I really appreciate at and all the support from you guys, this is just fantastic stuff! This is very reassuring as that is the range I found near me when searching. I sent them an email last night to see about meeting up with a member for evaluation since I don't know anyone in that area. Hoping I can get into a match soon, fingers crossed!

 

[acudaowner]

looks like a great start just need bullets and a range or place to shoot. and you are set till you want to upgrade , and have fun.

 

[cornhusker86]

Great rifle!!! I had 2 like it back in mid '90's. One was 220 Swift. If I'm not mistaken, the Heavy Varmint models used Schneider barrels. Both of mine were tack drivers. Lots of great suggestions on glass. Don't rule out good 'ol Leupold. I have a couple of the VX-3i's and they are solid scopes for the money. My point is, you don't have to spend a fortune. If you don't reload, Hornady match is a good choice. Most will say Federal gold medal and they are not wrong, but Hornady is normally cheaper and in my experience shoots just as well. If memory serves, that barrel should have a 1 in 12 twist so 175 to 180 grains is about the limit for weight. Some will handle a 190, but most won't.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Absolutely love win 70's

 

[Grog11]

I love model 70’s. I really wish there were more options out there for them. I’ve got a hunting rifle with a pre 64 and it has this heavy solid feel to it when it locks up that no other action I own has. Also have a post 64 (push feed), that I love too. Great actions!

 

[wapiti16b]

I'm kind of a Winchester Junkie, what you have is a great rifle and I would shoot groups with your reloads before I changed anything yet!.
If it will not group to your expectations then it is time to spend your money on some accurizing, pillar bedding, truing the bolt lugs etc..., and once you get comfortable spend some money on whatever scope you like. Glass is important but reticle and tracking are more important, pick whatever 1500 to 2000 dollar scope fits your needs. I went with a GEN II Vortex Razor sitting in ARC rings on a NEAR 20moa pic rail. If you decide to go with FNH TBM & Magazines I have a set I can part with!

 

[cornhusker86]

That stock should have an aluminum chassis.

 

[dinc]

Keep the gun and scope as they are and go shoot! I have one with a chromoly barrel and it shoots sub MOA. It currently wears a 90's vintage SS10x42M and I shoot it occasionally to 1k at B-27 targets. That's key with a lower power scope, match the target to the sights. That Redfield looks like it has target knobs so just dial it. Remember to always dial back to your settings, go up in elevation past the setting you're after (counter-clockwise), then dial back down (clockwise) to your dope. This takes the backlash out, a frequent problem with older scopes. Windage the same way if you're dialing. Grab some Federal GM 168gr MK or 175 gr MK. The 168's will be fine out to 900 yds but will probably go subsonic between there and 1k. Also your gun may like one over the other. GO SHOOT! Yea, you're probably not going to set any PRS records, but you have the potential to set a personal best every time you go out! If somebody doesn't offer help and encouragement and gives you crap about your equipment, they are scum and not worth your time. You will get much better scores by shooting $1000 worth of ammo in this gun than you will by buying a $2000 scope for it. Shoot and enjoy.

 

[Action Guy]

You will get much better scores by shooting $1000 worth of ammo in this gun than you will by buying a $2000 scope for it. Shoot and enjoy.

I agree 100% with this. If the scope holds solid zero and tracks well, you'll be fine. Then upgrade to one with more capability and the features you need based on your experience from shooting $1,000 of ammo. However, if the scope does not track, return to zero, or does not hold zero at all, then it must go sooner than later.

 

[Jsmith410]

Like stated above. I would just put a better scope on it and roll on.

 

[BJames]

I love watching this sport grow, and the hide is a great spot to learn/ask questions. Sign up for lowlight’s training videos. Those were very helpful (to a point) for me, at some point you’ll plateau and need an instructor watching you. At least I did, but it will most likely be several hundred rounds and thousands of dry snaps till then.

With that rig, there’s is nothing holding you back from shooting now. My recommendation, grab a box each of whatever match ammo (federal gold medal match, Hornady match, Hornady precision hunter, prime, etc.) shoot some groups focusing on the fundamentals. Don’t get super analytical comparing group size between brands, go buy a case of whatever your rifle likes best. Burn that up before making any decisions on what to upgrade.

Lastly, welcome to the community!

 

[stello1001]

Winchester 70s are absolutely awesome. No need to save up for a better rifle. Glass wise, it's probably best you get something better but you really don't have to spend too much depending on what your budget is. I think that even around 700 dollars, you can find a decent scope to work with and will get you hits out to 1000 yards. Good luck!

 

[steve123]

The way your rifle is set up currently is for medium ranges. You'll likely run out of elevation travel for long range, at what distance we couldn't say. If there's no holdover hashes in the reticle it becomes a bit silly.

First thing I'd do is get a 20 moa base which will allow the zero to be lower in the elevation travel and will extend the upward travel so you can get 20 moa more travel. Never the less that 20 moa base can be used later with a different scope and is almost a "must have".

For general use, let me save you some hassle, buy an Athlon Midas TAC 6-24x50 wit APRS3 reticle, it's plenty of scope to grow into and learn on and it's not expensive. If you upgrade later on these make great scopes for 22 rimfires as well.

But, if you tie into the benchrest crowd, you'll end up with a high magnification SFP scope, like a 10-50x56, etc. These scopes are great for fixed distances on paper, some varminting too, but are not the most versatile scopes around. I've had a few of these type scopes and sold them, just not what I'm after these days.

 

[wade2big]

You are setup right now to bang steel out to 500 yards. Absolutely nothing else needed. Zero for 300 and learn your holdovers and unders. Throw on a better scope with turrets to get you further when you are ready to spend the money. KISS (keep it simple stupid).

 

[m1match]

I would suggest that you take your time in researching your next scope and start shooting your rifle as it is. I used to have your rifle in 223 Rem with the exact same Redfield scope, I got mine around 1992 and the only reason I sold mine is I wasn't shooting it much and the 223 Rem barrel was 1-9 twist which isn't so good for projectiles 75 gr. and heavier. If your scope is like mine, it has 1/4 minute adjustment turrets and a mil-dot reticle, which, while obsolete today, can still be usable. Your stock is an H-S Precision stock and if you pull the action you will find it has an aluminum bedding block, that stock was cutting edge at the time it was made.

I would suggest finding a local precision rifle match and go out there to observe and maybe shoot. While you're there ask to look at other peoples scopes and get opinions from the most experienced shooters at the match. You will learn a lot and hopefully be able to get an idea of what scope is most suitable for yourself.

The one improvement that would suggest to get now is a stock pad to get the proper cheek weld, the comb of the HS stock is too low. I like the stock pads from Triad Tactical, they come with velcro strips to adjust how much it raises your cheek.

https://www.triadtactical.com/Triad-Stock-Pack.html

 

[FCrifles]

Winchester used Wilson barrels on those older Heavy Varmints and the ones I have seen shoot extremely good.