Winchester Small Rifle Primer - Piercing?

[pmclaine]

Ive been loading up some .223 with various powders - CFE 223, AR COMP, 8208XBR, TAC

I haven't ran any of my loads say more than .2 over recommended max but Im noticing what I think is piercing - the firing pin contact divot will be blackened in its center.

Im shooting an LMT CQB, 16 inch 1/7.

The projectile is a Nosler CC 77 grain.

TAC at 23.5 evidenced this issue.

Some 8208XBR fired today had 3/50 at a 22.9 load pierced.

There are no signs of hard extraction or ejector marks. The primers are a little flat no major cratering.

The brass is WCC 08 on its second firing.

Is Winchester thinning their primers. Never had issues with Win LRP, Win SP or Win LP for 30-06, .38 spcl, or .45 ACP.

Just curious if anyone has noted this.

Any chance Ill be damaging my gun if this continues. There doesn't appear to be soot marks indicating blow back or "plasma" type cutting such as from a loose primer pocket or a neck split.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Easy_E]

I made this mistake with CCI's before the enlarged the print on the box. Are you sure they are small rifles and not small pistol ? Again I made this mistake myself and had the exact results.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

WSR's are known for being soft and piercing in AR's.

 

[pmclaine]

Yep definitely small rifle.

My only experience has been in the other calibers. Surprised there is no issue in my 30-06 Garand which also has a floating firing pin.

I guess Ill have to start looking at other primers. I really like the Win primers though as the run well in my Dillon.

Will they erode/damage the firing pin or its opening in the bolt face? I have a bout 6K to go through.

 

[09cs]

Was looking into which primers to get for my 223 ar loads and came up with many people stating this issue, but again, many stating they've ran thousands without an issue. I myself am going to try CCI #450

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Will they erode/damage the firing pin or its opening in the bolt face? I have a bout 6K to go through.

Yes.

Once the tip of the pin starts pitting/eroding, the process accelerates.

Then the pin is likely to break.

Then it slam fires.

Uncool. Be careful!

 

[Clark]

Yes.
Once the tip of the pin starts pitting/eroding, the process accelerates.

Buy a gun that has been eroding the firing pin to firing pin hole fit for 114 years, and you may not be able to shoot higher than 25 kpsi, without eroding it further. And that is with CCI450 small rifle magnum primers, the ones the 6mmBR guys use for 85kpsi.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

I just use Remington 7-1/2's and dont worry about it. Or CCI 41's.

I like the Remingtons better, for no particular reason other than they give me confidence.

 

[bigedp51]

In the AR15 it is recommended that you use primers with cups .025 in thickness.

The military crimps its primers to prevent the primer from backing out during firing, below is a uncrimped primer. If the cartridge case is over resized and the shoulder bumped back too far when the cartridge is fired the primer is forced back over the firing pin. This punches the center out of the primer like a cookie cutter due to the excess head clearance or the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face.

Below is from the Sierra reload manual.

Primers and Pressure Analysis within AccurateShooter.com

Primer Info & Chart + Milspec Primers for Semi-Autos & Other Primer Applications

Remington ran Lake City Army Ammunition Plant from 1941 until 1985 and was instrumental in the 5.56 ammunition development. Remington loaded its 7 1/2 primers in the 5.56 ammunition at Lake City to light off primarily the harder to ignite Winchester ball powders. Below the Remington 7 1/2 primer is also know as the mini flamethrower for good reason.

 

[Deadshot2]

This thread illustrates why I eliminated Winchester Primers (all types) from my loading supplies. Of all the primers I've used they are the softest and most trouble prone in my AR's.

I've found the Wolf/Tula .223 primers to be great performers and at a far lower cost than the other "Military Type" primers.

In my bolt action rifles the Win primers looked like someone melted them and poured them back in the primer pocket after firing. That's even with light loads.

 

[4570sharpshooter]

Does anyone have the primer cup thickness for the wolf small rifle primers ? 45/70SS

 

[pmclaine]

Regards oversizing potential I used a headspace gauge on fir formed brass from my rifle set for bump back .003 which more often than not measured an actual bump in the high .002's.

Your chart shows Win cup thickness of .027 (.002>recommended .025).

Interesting. The 30-06 Garand is way more violent an action why no issue there?

Ill be shooting some reloads in an hour - I think CFE - Ill see how they do.

 

[pmclaine]

53 rds of CFE 223 at 23.5 grains, Nos CC 77 grns, 3 COAL from 2.26 to 2.24 - No pierced primers.

Is 22.9 of 8208XBR hot?

Cases WCC 08 1X.

 

[bigedp51]

Regards oversizing potential I used a headspace gauge on fir formed brass from my rifle set for bump back .003 which more often than not measured an actual bump in the high .002's.

Your chart shows Win cup thickness of .027 (.002>recommended .025).

Interesting. The 30-06 Garand is way more violent an action why no issue there?

Ill be shooting some reloads in an hour - I think CFE - Ill see how they do.

Small rifle primers recommended are .025

"LARGE" rifle primers are .027 or .002 thicker. (Get new reading glasses)

 

[bigedp51]

Does anyone have the primer cup thickness for the wolf small rifle primers ? 45/70SS

Go back up and "READ" the links I posted on primers "Primer info and chart" or "CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER - A PRIMER ON PRIMERS"

 

[pmclaine]

Go back up and "READ" the links I posted on primers "Primer info and chart" or "CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER - A PRIMER ON PRIMERS"

Thanks bilge51 appreciate your response.

 

[4570sharpshooter]

bigedp51, I read the disclaimer on the tula/wolf primers were not recommended for the ar platform. Thanks , 45/70SS

 

[Deadshot2]

bigedp51, I read the disclaimer on the tula/wolf primers were not recommended for the ar platform. Thanks , 45/70SS

Perhaps the standard rifle primers but the KVB556M definitely IS! That's what it's built for.

FWIW, I've used over 10,000 (two cases) of the Wolf/Tula KVB223's in three different AR's, all shooting "hot" loads and have yet to pierce a primer on a single one of them.