Advanced Marksmanship Wind read- More important at gun or target?

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

You point out some problems with flags. Mirage seems to be so much more a reliable indicator.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Maybe I'm missing something. How can you look through a scope at a distance of from 1 to 1000 yards, at mirage and tell what its doing at, lets say 400 or 800 yards.
</div></div>

Set the focus to 400 or 800 yards. What you see is what you got. Since most spotting scopes do not have range indicators on the focus, this requires you to set focus on an OBJECT at that range. Now, the mirage you see is the focused mirage within the depth of field of that scope, which on spotters is rarely more that 20 yards.

If you were to place some mirage boards on a range with some known or predictable crosswind locations you can see it, or just use some range flags. Set focus on the pole and look at the mirage, which will closely match the flag. Move to another flag at the point of a crosswind and when you focus there, you'll see the mirage once again matching the flag.

As you run the focus, you'll see that the mirage stays 'in focus', since the scope is always in focus at some point in space. If you do this with care on an area of crosswinds, you can see the point of shift in direction. The main difficulty is gettin your eyes to stay in the focal plane of the scope, since your brain will try to focus on the objects in the field of view, which is why you want SOMETHING in the field at that range other than just the air.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Oh my god...

Sterling in the video you can also see the 300WM fishtailing because she is offset like a HP shooter, the recoil is at an angle... so it's an argument for managing recoil on a scoped 300WM rifle too... but I made no mention of her poor shooting position. Just because it works in HP doesn't mean it works with a 300WM using a scope. Different animals.

And if Kraig doesn't under the most BASIC elements of focusing a spotter on Mirage, how to do it, what he is actually looking at, I have to question the Army method of training that would be another thing to we can talk about because clearly you appear to be in the same boat.

You don't know what mid range is... or what you are really looking at, nor do you understand the simple concept of establishing a base line reading to add dimensions to the entire call. In stead you put down using an instrument to assist the shooter.

You guys talk in circles just repeating the same thing over and over yet when we dig down too it... you have no idea what you are looking at ... really it is just time spent doing the same thing over and over and you have adapted it too work.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Set the focus to 400 or 800 yards.</div></div>

Actually I do that all the time. I have a 400 yard range in the back yard, but if I look north from my back porch, I see for ever. (Down Ferguson Canyon).

There is a stand of trees about 1 mile away, I focus on varying points between the house and the trees, then look at the trees through the scope.

It dosn't change whether I focus at 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3s between me and the trees.

Today is a perfect day for that, 80 and humid (for Wyoming), Wind based on the tape I have on the scope stand is fishtailing from 11 - 1 o'clock. Yet at points between the house and the stand of trees seems to be a constant 3-5 going right to left.

Regardless where I focus the scope.

Based on my experience, today would be a sucky day to shoot long range. Here anyway.

 

[Ledzep]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Are you catching turbulence off of your house?

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

So Kraig, let me see if I understand what you are saying here. You have set focus on an object at 400 yards, where a flag or other solid indicator shows a right to left wind condition and the mirage you see is from 11 o'clock? If that were in fact the case, why would ever look at mirage in the first place?

Perhaps I should be take the above to mean that you see a right to left mirage when looking at the trees, but the flag at your position shows 11 o'clock, which is perfectly reasonable.

For this to work, you need a streamer, flag or some other solid indicator at the point of focus to tell you what is real. If your read of mirage does not match the indicator, Houston, we have a problem.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Gstaylorg <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just didn't think the effect at that wind velocity would be so great during the last hundred yards or so. Any suggestions on how to better estimate the magnitude of wind during the latter part of a trajectory?

</div></div>

Ok, what follows are some opinions based on observations of many students over the years.

First, a switch like this is VERY hard to detect. There's not much to see in the last couple hundred yards right before you break a shot, so if you don't have a spotter that right on top of things, you are going to be caught out.

Second, if you DO catch an indicator, bear this in mind. Fully 90% of wind corrections UNDERESTIMATE the value required, by anywhere from 25 to 50 percent of actual. If you plotted all the shots you fired on a windy day, the majority will probably be found downwind of center. You will be right more often if you INCREASE the estimated hold by 10%-25% than if you use the original estimate. Absent a dramatic letoff, a hold favoring upwind gives you a little more target to work with, if it's a little more that you think it is.

Third, this is where experiance at a given range becomes such a great asset. Having seen this, and logged it, the next time it occurs, and rest assured it will, you'll KNOW what to do with it. This is why airports have a primary runway, conditions tend to repeat over the long term, the PREVAILING winds are called that for a reason.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Thanks Cory. I wasn't the only one that underestimated the call, but as you said, next time I'll know better. Thanks also for the tips on increasing estimation for wind calls, I'll try to put that to good use.

 

[goober]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

What equally as fascinating in this debate is all parties are accomplished shooters in their own right -and still hitting targets even though their methods appear quite polarized -there goes the physics lol

 

[Desert-Rat]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?



<span style="font-style: italic">[There is physically no way to read the wind to within 1 MPH 500+ Yards away, it's invisible, and it changes too often. If you read what he said based on the "experienced" shooters, they read the constants at the gun, and then adjust for the conditions they see downrange, still based off the reading at the shooter.]</span> from lowlight

Not trying to "suk up" but this is one of the best lines in this thread IMO as a novice who is always struggling to increase my wind reading skills.

I had an old timer teach me that wind acts like water....[even bruce lee said "be water" in an old interview} so when I step out of the car or onto the range I close my eyes, feel and listen to the wind, then open them and try to visualize what my senses have given me as running water and it has really helped me to make closer first round shots than before.

Great thread and always good to keep learning from others, otherwise we'd all be shooting 22lr at 25 yds lol...

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Well, the physics are what they are. It matters not how you deal with them, but if you get on target you've done it in some fashion.

The question is, does that fashion work equally well no matter the conditions under which the shot will be fired?

I contend that what works for a fixed range match shooter, firing multiple shots for score where they have sighter shots, disks to locate hits, flags to assist wind, etc, is probably not the best way to deal with unknown ranges, varied targets, limited shots and time, no flags and no sighters.

I would also contend that TEACHING a method that relied almost exclusivly on a mid range read of mirage is going to prove far more difficult and time consuming than a system where a calibrated instrument is used to get a precise reading which can then be compared to it's physical effects and visual cues, including that mid range mirage. For example, while I'm downrange painting steel, the students are in the spotters, getting a read off the dust from my quad and the mirage, which I then can confirm from my Kestrel. They can see then that what's at 400 is not the same as at 600, then 650 - 700 as we go up the hill into the trees it changes again. If you read the 400 yard plates to hit the 800 yard plate at the top of the hill, well I can tell you right now that it's not working out for you, unless it's one of those odd no value days. Then shooting into/across the valley at Sniper Ridge will put a whole new spin on things, since 'mid range' is now a couple hundred feet below the path of the bullet, and looking at the mirage alone is not cutting it either.

Can someone point out a major High Power range that has a large canyon running diagonally through the 300 to 700 yard area, with the targets at 1000 on a large steep hill running on an opposite diagonal to the firing line? (crickets chirping..........)

Didn't think so.

I'm not bad mouthing High Power shooting or shooters. It's an excellent training tool, IF you recognize exactly what it is you are training, rather like IPDA vs fighting with a handgun. Even shooting a scoped rifle in F Class is NOT sniper training. It has value, but it's not the same thing at all.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

One of several locations we shot at Gunsite in March, the targets dotted in this image go out to 1500m. We engaged only the targets in the treelike and not the two closer at 9 O Clock.

There is a large drop off under the shooter's position (note tops of trees are below the shooting position) then it slopes up towards the targets. Also you have open fields then heavy vegetation.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

It's synergistic. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I pulled the tigger and the wind stopped . . . I missed.

 

[Zilla]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can someone point out a major High Power range that has a large canyon running diagonally through the 300 to 700 yard area, with the targets at 1000 on a large steep hill running on an opposite diagonal to the firing line? (crickets chirping..........)

Didn't think so.
</div></div>

http://www.usftrclass.com/event-photos/2011-scottish-lr-championship-blair-atholl-scotland/img_2587/

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Well, that's not what I'd call a major range, since it appears you can get about six shooters on the line, though it does pose an interesting wind problem.

 

[Graham]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

At ASC a few weeks ago we had a 330 yard shot: No wind at the gun; no wind at the target; no mirage. I held 2.5 Mils of wind... and missed, of course. But as it turned out I missed because I needed even more wind. For that shot the wind between the rifle and the target was the most important.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

The more you shoot the more you run into examples that fall outside the normal.

During a class at Thunder Ranch we had a target 900 yards away. Shooter on the side of the ridge, target in the open valley. Perfect mirage at the target blowing 8MPH under extremely favorable conditions. the hold was center, no wind, despite everything to the contrary. Hills blocked the bullets flight protecting it from the wind.

It all adds to your personal database.

 

[Chanonry]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, that's not what I'd call a major range, since it appears you can get about six shooters on the line, though it does pose an interesting wind problem.</div></div>

Come over here and shoot some competition. That range is the one that sorts the men from the boys

 

[goober]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Yeah that's got some interesting dips , trees and angles in it -no easy I imagine at all .My range at Cleavdon Auckland New Zealand can be very akward with saddle type hills both sides and a big hill at the back of the buts and drop offs in between shooter and target

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At ASC a few weeks ago we had a 330 yard shot: No wind at the gun; no wind at the target; no mirage. I held 2.5 Mils of wind... and missed, of course. But as it turned out I missed because I needed even more wind. For that shot the wind between the rifle and the target was the most important.</div></div>

I know exactly what Graham experienced, I've experienced it often; and thus, I embraced mid range wind reading when successful shooters told me that the mid range technique would work in many conditions/environments. Without mirage I will resort to looking for effects of wind down range, you know. wind raising dust and blowing loose paper, that sort of thing.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

No,

You really have no clue what Graham is talking about because at ASC every stage presents a different problem requiring a different solution because of the varying terrain. A mid range read might work for a few stages, but not for a majority. Having come in second more than once i can tell you, what you think won't work.

I would bet you fall into the lower 3rd based on your understanding of field shooting.

Dust, ya that is accurate, especially considering how wet it is, loose paper, ok where did the paper come from, doubt you'll find a scrap of it. With the cross the canyon shot your mid range dust and paper is more than 100ft below the line of sight. And that is just one example, there are shots over 800 yards away at better than 45 degrees, you're reading the wind off the face of a hill you can't even walk up.

Endlessly repeating what someone told you over and over hoping it fits won't work.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

So riddle me this...; how many ways <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> there to defur this feline?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So riddle me this...; how many ways are there to defur this feline?
</div></div>

Ah....a voice of reason.

 

[Graham]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

At ASC the wind at the gun means nothing.

Sometimes, like for a recent 870 yard shot, the wind everywhere meant nothing and a center-hold got the hit... the first time. Then it was left edge... then right edge... then half a Mil on either side of the target.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> At ASC a few weeks ago we had a 330 yard shot: No wind at the gun; no wind at the target; no mirage. I held 2.5 Mils of wind... and missed</div></div>

So there was a 30mph+ direct crosswind between you and a 330 yard target that showed nothing at you or the target? Yowza!

In any event, this is missing the point. No one ever said the mid range wind had no meaning. No one is trying to say the wind at the shooter 'means' more that some other wind. Given an equal velocity, the nearer that wind is to the muzzle, more deflection will be created further downrange, thats simple fact. That does NOT mean we just read wind at the shooter and call it good.

The total crosswind value, over the whole of the shot, is what 'means' something. One way or another, you MUST account for the full range condition. The mid range call, shoot and adjust, then repeat when a matching condition appears that works for a High Power match is NOT suitable for field shooting.

I'll ask again, what's the percentage of first shot X rings hits at 1K using this system? If it's not 90% or so, given a known range, wind flags and plenty of time, then it's surely not getting the job done when that one shot is all you get and you have none of those advantages.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

ASC and places like is change so much, you have to take the sum of the total and subtract 0 after multiply a factor of 10.

The first year I got a S&B 5-25x, it was one of the first in the country, I shot an ASC Match. The weather changed from 70 degrees, to less than 30 degrees, it rained and snowed all within a 1/2 hour of itself. Needless to say my brand new S&B like everyone else on the line fogged up terribly and every second between relays was spent trying to clear the scopes enough to see the targets. At 5000ft in the mountains of West Virginia conditions change.

Field conditions don't rely on single method of call, but prevailing winds and speeds help establish actual numbers. Sterling was using your example as a validation of his point, that Mid Range works, and absent of Mirage he would just use the Dust blowing the Valley.. despite the moist, grass, trees, etc.

This is why "teams" let people shoot in an specific order there to help dope the wind, they figured out early on that if weaker shooters went first it gave them a call based off the first shots. Taking it organic was much harder than it appeared, hence the gaming when possible.

We see the same thing here, we have a variety of places and conditions to shooter, it makes calls as much about the terrain and Topo of the map as it does about what the wind meter says.

 

[Graham]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So there was a 30mph+ direct crosswind between you and a 330 yard target that showed nothing at you or the target? Yowza!</div></div>We figured it to be 30-35mph. From a sheltered spot, with the wind coming over a ridge and through a canyon, to another sheltered spot. That wind had an effect on elevation as well.

One year we had 55mph winds on the mountain and 35mph full-value winds from the ridge. There I had to dial and hold, because I didn't have enough windage available on the reticle.

BTW Cory, this Thread was a good read and there's nothing you've said so far that I disagree with.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Here are some numbers for perspective

Metro Std, 175gr Match 308 @ 2730fps

15 mph from 270, 0 to 333 yards, 0 mph from 334-1000,
1000 yd tgt, 2 mil or 72"

15 mph from 270, 333 to 666 yards, 0 mph from 0-332 and 667-1000
1000 yd tgt, 1.9 mil or 68.4"

15 mph from 270, 666 to 1000 yds, 0 mph from 0 to 666
1000 yd tgt, .9 mil or 32.4"

As you can see, as we get closer to the target, the total deflection value for the same wind value is less and less.


Add in just 5 mph in the other bands and look at the differance.

15 mph from 270, 0 to 333 yards, 5 mph from 333-1000,
1000 yd tgt, 2.9 mil or 104.4"

15 mph from 270, 333 to 666 yards, 5 mph from 0-332 and 667-1000
1000 yd tgt, 2.8 mil or 100"

15 mph from 270, 666 to 1000 yds, 0 mph from 0 to 665-1000 yd tgt, 2.1 mil or 75.6"

If your read was correct for ANY one area, and you did nothing to account for the other bands, you miss a 2 MOA target.

So, if we MUST account for ALL the wind, would it not make the most sense to work near to far, where the near wind can be measured with some degree of precision and the far wind can be compared to that near value?

Certainly there are situations where the near value is either misleading or too low in value to depth to add much to the farther calls. Shooting from deep inside a building for example, pretty much rules out a good read from the Kestrel at the shooter. That does not mean we ignore the wind right outside the window, it's just going to depend on some other indicators.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So there was a 30mph+ direct crosswind between you and a 330 yard target that showed nothing at you or the target? Yowza!</div></div>We figured it to be 30-35mph. From a sheltered spot, with the wind coming over a ridge and through a canyon, to another sheltered spot. That wind had an effect on elevation as well.

One year we had 55mph winds on the mountain and 35mph full-value winds from the ridge. There I had to dial and hold, because I didn't have enough windage available on the reticle.

BTW Cory, this Thread was a good read and there's nothing you've said so far that I disagree with.

</div></div>

I'll say it again, Yowza! That's a tough spot, no doubt about it. How many people made the right call? Valleys like that across the range are very, very hard. Unless you get a good read on the approach to the FFP, or have some indicator on the exposed portion of the near side of the ridge, it's a lot more of a WAG than a SWAG.

 

[Graham]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

It was a low percentage shot. I didn't see anyone in my squad hit it with the first shot, and maybe one second-round hit.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

One year we had<span style="color: #FF0000"> 55mph winds on the mountain and 35mph full-value winds from the ridge</span>. There I had to dial and hold, because I didn't have enough windage available on the reticle.</div></div>

That's just crazy talk. Time to call in some air support (LOL).

 

[Graham]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Time to call in some air support (LOL). </div></div>I tried that for the targets beyond 600m. They said assets were stacked but unavailable and we'd just have to fight our way out.

BTW, on a serious note, it does happen:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/03/marine_ambush_030310w/

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> No,

You really have no clue what Graham is talking about because at ASC every stage presents a different problem requiring a different solution because of the varying terrain. A mid range read might work for a few stages, but not for a majority. Having come in second more than once i can tell you, what you think won't work.

I would bet you fall into the lower 3rd based on your understanding of field shooting.

Dust, ya that is accurate, especially considering how wet it is, loose paper, ok where did the paper come from, doubt you'll find a scrap of it. With the cross the canyon shot your mid range dust and paper is more than 100ft below the line of sight. And that is just one example, there are shots over 800 yards away at better than 45 degrees, you're reading the wind off the face of a hill you can't even walk up.

Endlessly repeating what someone told you over and over hoping it fits won't work. </div></div>

Maybe you would have come in first if you had tried something else.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

SS, he was second from the top, you've got your directions inverted. Maybe you focused past the target.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I am always second,

Second at ASC, Second at Raton, Second at CRC, Second at RO, there is a pattern emerging ... I think I might have to take his advice, either that or I actually have to care more

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I know more about coming in second than coming in first. It's why I am Sterling Shooter and not Golden Shooter. I think LL knows I'm just having a little fun. No disrespect, I know LL is very knowledgeable about all matters of good shooting.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One year we had 55mph winds on the mountain and 35mph full-value winds from the ridge. There I had to dial and hold, because I didn't have enough windage available on the reticle</div></div>

I was shooting a Service Rifle 1000 yard match one year at 29 Palms. Don't remember the exact wind but I didn't have the windage on my M14.

I got on quick by using the target next door. Wind was heavy but fairly steady.

A lot of people just left the line. The Range Officer announced that if you stop shooting, or finish, notify the pits so they could pull the targets to keep them from getting tore up.

I was doing good until they pulled my next door target. I told my scorer to get my target back up. He says mines up, the shooter next door quit.

I was screwed. Doing good to that point but buy the time I found another aiming point, it was all over for me.

Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

OK, I guess this argument is going to go on until the second coming of Jesus Christ.

But here's my thought:

The wind is not a constant. Perhaps there is the rare occasion wherein the wind will measure a constant velocity for some period from the exact same azimuth, but I think that would be the rare exception.

I'm a new guy here but when push comes to shove, I think all of you are taking a SWAG when you adjust for your winds, I don't care from which school of thought you were graduated.

You take your best input and then you GUESS.

OK, ain't got no dog in this hunt, just my opinion.

 

[pyrofx]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Now you see, Frank is feeling bad about being second . That's why California got rid of " place " in smelling bees. See what I mean!!

Now Frank , your not the second place . Hell no ! Your a FIRST PLACE looser.

Feel better now ?

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Only pigs can see the wind . . . .

(Probably get banned, but that's ok. I've been banned from worse places)

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Aw crap; are we gonna do the group hug thingie now...?

 

[coach482]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

a 1 and a 2, Cum, ba, Ya, Cumbaya.