Advanced Marksmanship Wind

shooter65

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  • Jun 19, 2004
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    Wind:

    Wind defection is non- deterministic element, and is the mot difficult challenge for all types of long range shooting.

    Wind is air in motion; a fluid. Fluids have a nasty habit of being chaotic and difficult to predict in general.

    Wind is not a constant textbook 10 mph crosswind, but a real world wind complete with velocity gradient, direction changes, eddies, pick-ups, let-offs, vertical components, etc.

    Since you can’t reliably measure and account for wind deflection, the best you can do is minimize its uncertainty and it effects. This is the best technical approach to dealing with the wind problem.
    There are two major things you can do to minimize the effects of wind:
    Practice reading your wind skills; by observing the cause and effect relationship between the wind conditions and bullet deflection.
    If you can obtain a real insight of how wind deflection works, you can make smart decisions about your equipment (rifle/bullet) that result in superior ballistics in the form of minimal wind deflection.

    With a right hand twist rifle:
    Wind from the left will deflect a bullet to the right and down.
    Wind form the right will deflect a bullet to the left and up.

    Wind Gradient:
    Wind gradient refers to the tendency for air currents to move more swiftly farther off the ground. Even on a windy day, when you get right down in the dirt and weeds, there is essentially no wind. However, if you were to sample the wind 10 feet above the ground, you would find an even higher wind speed. Depending on the terrain, the wind may reach full speed at high or low altitude. In general, the smoother the ground is, (i.e.) a frozen lake or flat desert, the less altitude is required for the wind to develop its full velocity. On the contrary, if the ground is covered with this weeds, grass, shrubs, trees, etc, the wind may not reach full speed until a much higher altitude.
    As the bullet arcs along it’s trajectory toward a distant target, it will rise, 10,15, even 20 feet above the ground and sometimes more than that if the shot goes over the valley. In that case, the bullet can be flying thru a wind speed that’s far greater than the shooter is able to sample from his position, or observe on the ground near the targets’ location.

    Beating the wind:

    Wind deflection is the most influential non-deterministic element in long range ballistics.

    The best strategy for beating the uncertainty of wind deflection is to minimize its uncertainty and its effects.

    Lag time is the fundamental measure of merit for wind deflection. Lag time is reduced by using high BC bullets and high muzzle velocity.

    In a trade – off between low BC ( light weight) bullets at high speed compared to high BC ( heavy) bullets at reduced speed, the high BC bullets at lower speed will produce less lag time and wind deflection.

    The academic debate between near wind and far wind is trumped by the unique realities of wind pattern to each specific range. The best policy for shooting in the wind is flexibility and critical assessment of the features unique to each range.

    Wind does not blow on the side of the bullet to cause deflection. Instead, the bullet weathervanes into the oncoming airflow. A crosswind will make the bullet fly at a small angle to the line of sight. The aerodynamic drag applied to the bullet acts directly back along the bullet axis, which effectively pulls it away from the line of sight.

    Wind gradient is when the wind velocity increases with increased height above the ground. It can be difficult to judge the wind speed high above the ground when shooting over valleys where there are no indicators, but you can usually count on higher velocity winds in such cases.

    Cross wind weighting factors can be used to calculate the effects of multiple winds. The most wind sensitive portion of a bullet’s trajectory is not always the first segment. If the bullet will go transonic during its flight, that will dictate where the bullet is most sensitive.

    Aerodynamic jump is a mechanism by which a bullet can have a vertical deflection when fired into a purely horizontal crosswind speed. This deflection is a constant angular deflection, roughly equal to .03 to .04 moa per mph of crosswind speed, and it depends on the gyroscopic stability of the bullet at the muzzle. The deflection is down for a left – right crosswind, and up for a right to left crosswind. These directions are reversed for a left twist barrel.

    Point forward flight means that the nose of the bullet is always pointed straight into the oncoming air flow like a weather vane. Now the axis of the bullet is no longer aligned with the line of sight. Arrows are stabilized with fletching, and bullets are stabilized with spin, the both point their nose into the oncoming air flow when they are stable in flight.

    For a given range and atmospheric condition, lag time and wind deflection depend on muzzle velocity and BC.


    In general, a headwind will cause a bullet to slowdown faster and strike the target lower and vice versa for a tail wind.
     
    Re: Wind

    Thanks for that little lession there. I especially liked the bullet spin drift from a right hand twist, some people just forget that one. Wind gradient is something new to me but makes perfect sense. Now I just need two things; More ammo, and some wind..

    Very well put wind knowledge. Thanks
     
    Re: Wind

    Nice post, very informative, but what can I do with the information? I think understanding what wind looks and feels like would be useful. I also think a formula for countering wind would be useful. Why not add information about these concepts to your post? As fluid as it all is, wind still requires commitment to a mechanical favor to counter the effect of it, even though such adjustment will rarely be perfect.
     
    Re: Wind

    Wind freakin blows dude
    wink.gif
     
    Re: Wind

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 40gt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read that the wind closest to the muzzle has the most influence on bullet drift than down range say when shooting at 1,000 yds. Is this true? If not please explain. I'm going to shoot 1,000 yds. in two days and need help.

    40gt</div></div>

    Observe and record conditions. Shoot during prevailing wind. Call shots; and, plot both calls and strikes to better understand effect of wind not countered correctly. Wind which has the greatest effect on the bullet will be at mid range (see explaination in second paragraph). The effect is measured by velocity and direction. Divide the distance to target by 100 and then multiply that factor with velocity of mid range wind, as a full or half value according to wind direction on wind clock. Divide sum by the constant of 10. The answer is MOA of drift, which you will counter by favor or sight adjustment. This should get you on target, after which, it's just a matter of holding fire for prevailing conditions. Hold steady for pinwheel X elevation and you can make the target a little bigger, perhaps, capturing points otherwise which would be lost to wind not properly countered. Finally, the most important thing is shooter/target analysis. You must understand that shots not right-in-there come about from a multitude of errors, not just the wind getting you. New shooters are terrible with this, that's to say, they do not recognize wind error from trigger control error, or errors coming about from an inconsistent position. That's why calling your shots is essential. You don't want to loose points to misunderstanding, like correcting for non-existant wind.

    Now, others here certainly have notions about how to do it. The strategy I use has proven to be effective. And, although the constant of 10 is not likely to be exact for whatever bullet, all that's necessary is the bullet get on paper. From there, a minor adjustment of both wind and elevation can be made to refine zero, for prevailing wind, to someplace inside the X ring. Also, note what I said earlier, the bullet is most effected by mid range wind. Actually, the bullet is effected by conditions all along its path; yet, using mid range wind is a reliable method for quickly coming to an understanding for what to do about the wind.

    After completing your string of fire, look at all of the hits recorded in your score book. Get a handle on shots off correct elevation, as well as off correct windage. Analysis will reveal where improvements are necessary.
     
    Re: Wind

    Wind conditions in the real world vary so much between muzzle velocity and target, it's impossible to know the exact speed and direction of the wind along all points of trajectory. So since you can't know all the wind all the time, it's critical to know what is most important to pay attention to. One very common debate among long range shooters is about this exact question. Does the wind that's close to the shooter (near wind) have more influence over the total wind deflection, or is the wind at the target (far wind) more important?

    Near wind is more important because it's the wind that affects the bullet earlies in flight. The bullet will spend the rest of its flight on a deviated path according to how the near wind affected it. On the contrary, the far wind doesn't affect the bullet until its closer to the target, and by then, the bullet's flight is almost over.

    Far wind is more important because the bullet is going slower when it's far downrange, and is more susceptible to the effects of wind.The bullet spends more time covering the last half of its flight than the first half, so the wind has more time to act on, and deflect the bullet. When the bullet is near the shooter, it's going so fas that the wind barely affects it at all.

    The academic debate between near wind vs far wind is trumped by the unique realities of wind patterns specific to each range. The best policy for shooting in the wind is flexibility and critical assessment of the features unique to each range.

    Pay close attention to wind gradient also. Midway from the shooter to the target is where the bullet is highest above ground, and subjected to the strongest wind speeds.

    Bottom line... It depends mostly on the unique features of the terrain over which you are shooting.

     
    Re: Wind

    Negative lead/ positive lead.


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange1947</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good post, however, I beleive you have the Magnus effect reversed. This effect also affected door gunners on helicopters in years past. </div></div>
     
    Re: Wind

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As fluid as it all is, wind still requires commitment to a mechanical favor to counter the effect of it, even though such adjustment will rarely be perfect. </div></div>

    ^^^
    I like that Charles.

    My simple version-elevation is science, wind is voodoo.

    Wind is definitely a science as well, but by the time its broken down into all the aerodynamic variables that will affect a bullet's path at say 800-1000 yards in a switchy wind bowl across a valley an inutitive shooter that has been paying attention whenever he's shot previously will be dropping rounds on target or in the ten ring long before the computation camp has assessed the overall effects of the current wind (and that is a waste anyway, becasue gues what-now the wind condition is different than it was a second ago!!).

    best educated guess, then drive the rifle well and gether your follow up shot info if the best educated guess was off.....


    Thanks for the post shooter65.
    Many think that wind is simple and those that do, by merely expressing that thinking, have just proved to me that they do not in fact shoot in the wind.
     
    Re: Wind

    When shooting at long ranges such as 1000 yards, it becomes less common for the terrain to remain truly level and even between the shooter and the target. All ranges have some kind of of vertical terrain features that will cause vertical wind currents to greater or lesser extent as the wind changes speed and direction, even if the the terrain features are just firing mounds downrange.

    Non-deterministic variables are those variables,that cannot be directly measured and affect the trajectory of the bullet. This would be the wind! Since the exact speed and direction of the wind cannot be determined at every point between the shooter and the target, its effects cannot be precisely accounted for.

    Use the highest BC bullet that your rifle shoots accurately. Selecting the proper shooting equipment is about minimizing the biggest source of uncertainty which is....."The Wind".


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 40gt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read that the wind closest to the muzzle has the most influence on bullet drift than down range say when shooting at 1,000 yds. Is this true? If not please explain. I'm going to shoot 1,000 yds. in two days and need help.

    Wind is not our friend....

    40gt </div></div>
     
    Re: Wind

    All that is good, except wind is invisible, so to help the new shooter they need to understand a few things. There are two ways to judge the wind, 1. using the science department, and 2. using the Art Department.

    1. The Science Department, this is wind at the shooter, because this is the only place the shooter can judge the wind with any degree of certainty. All basis for judging the wind starts at the shooter, as experience grows so does how far out an experienced shooter can judge and understand the conditions. For new shooters you start your personal database for understanding the wind at you. No where else can you begin to understand the conditions. So, it is best to use a hand held device to verify your guess. This is reenforced visually by noting the conditions and indicators around you. Once that is done you can begin the journey towards the Art Department.

    2. The Art Department is anything down range, mid, or at the target. This is never constant as wind does not flow in a straight line or in constant velocities, but rather fluctuates like waves on a beach, changing in velocity. Because it is invisible we try to down range indicators to determine it's speed, which is more easily read at the shooter. Again, as experience grows, you begin to recognize changes downrange which will effect the shot like Terrain features or the fact that mid range appears to be more important when really its just a function of the flight of bullet.

    Max Ordinate is the term, which tells you the highest point of the bullet's flight. Because it is well over the line of sight this deceives a lot of shooters. Max ord for a 308 at 1000 yards is roughly 15ft over the line of sight. Because of this, the winds are stronger, in some cases quite a bit stronger because there is less resistance. This is important to understand, so if the shooters is doping a 1000 yard shot and the wind 12MPH at the shooter, it can easily be 16MPH at Max Ord... you can't see this, but it is there and happening. We see everyday. If I am shooting to 1000 yards with a 308 and I read the wind at me as 8MPH, I will instinctively dope the shot for 10MPH because I know it will be effected more because of the Max Ord. Inside ranges like 600 yards it is no longer an issue and I simply dope it for the velocity read at the shooter because the bullet is not traveling up as high.

    Let no one fool you, anything down range is a guess, nothing more. You may have an educated guess and in my cases the guess maybe correct, but it starts at the shooter regardless of who it is. In winds under 10MPH it is easy to use things like Mirage, trees, or flags, etc... to help with that guess, but once you go beyond that velocity, anything above 10MPH to 12MPH all bets are off as those indicators are no longer as useful, the information gleaned at the shooter is much more important.

    Terrain is another very important feature as this effects the winds velocity and effects on the bullet . I have seen a mirage in a valley running about 8MPH but because the mountains were blocking the flight of the bullet to the target below, the hold was actually no wind. At this past SHC there were more hits at 1000 than at 900 simply because of the terrain before each target. Terrain features can be seen or unseen by the shooter and still have enormous effects which, because wind is invisible the shooter will never see. Flags can be deceiving on a square range when being influenced by terrain. This will effect the flag and have no effect on the bullet. Also there are no flags in the field to use, so relying on them too heavily can have negative effects in the long run. This is why it is a guess downrange and nothing more, you have no way of knowing if there is some terrain feature between the target and the wind which will change it's velocity or direction of travel.

    New shooters, build your library by doping the wind at you, as you grow as a shooter, you'll begin to extend that down range. But understand every class, when our winds are blowing 12MPH to 16MPH daily, I ask shooters, new and old alike to tell me what the wind is doing down range by looking at the grass or the trees and the answer is always the same, blowing.
     
    Re: Wind

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> it's impossible to know the exact speed and direction of the wind along all points of trajectory.</div></div>

    That's why God invented Mirage.
     
    Re: Wind

    Wind can be seen, it's called mirage; and, it describes rising layers of air at different temps. Turn spotting scope focus knob a quarter turn to mid range and mirage can clearly be seen. Observation of mirage can be a useful aid to hitting where aimed.
     
    Re: Wind

    Mirage isn't there under all conditions and in wind over 12MPH mirage is essentially useless as it just lays over... you can get direction with it, but not velocity as it only lays over so much. If you are in colder temps, the mirage is not there, early morning, etc.

    We shoot in hot conditions with lots of mirage, but we have even stronger winds and mirage simply doesn't work. When it is blowing 18MPH to 26MPH like they saw at this last match, you are not using the mirage.

    Overcast in the mountains shooting down, there may not be any mirage between you and the target.

    There has to be a 2 degree Celsius difference in the layers for it to be seen.

    Mirage is not constant or always visible... when you only shoot on nice days, sure.
     
    Re: Wind

    Bingo.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mirage isn't there under all conditions and in wind over 12MPH mirage is essentially useless as it just lays over... you can get direction with it, but not velocity as it only lays over so much. If you are in colder temps, the mirage is not there, early morning, etc.

    We shoot in hot conditions with lots of mirage, but we have even stronger winds and mirage simply doesn't work. When it is blowing 18MPH to 26MPH like they saw at this last match, you are not using the mirage.

    Overcast in the mountains shooting down, there may not be any mirage between you and the target.

    There has to be a 2 degree Celsius difference in the layers for it to be seen.

    Mirage is not constant or always visible... when you only shoot on nice days, sure. </div></div>
     
    Re: Wind

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mirage isn't there under all conditions and in wind over 12MPH mirage is essentially useless</div></div>

    Thats true, when wind velocity gets to a certain point its hard to see. But at that point, the wind is normally constant through out the range.
     
    Re: Wind

    Which is why you begin building your library by developing the wind calls at you.

    How it feels, measured against a handheld wind meter especially in training. You feel it first and judge it based off that information. That resource is available, your own body, it maybe an educated guess if you don't have a wind meter, but you base all calls off of your own senses. We have five, we can use seeing, hearing and touch to calibrate our body as measured against training by using a meter.

    Then, if you are wrong, you always have believe the bullet, because the bullet has the last word. if you drive the rifle correctly you can see your impact, or in your case, look at the spotter they put in the target. If you think the wind was "X" and the bullet says it is "Y" then that is the correct answer for whatever reason.

    In the field if you spot your shot, second round hits are guaranteed, in competition you have 100% of the information necessary to properly adjust your aim.
     
    Re: Wind

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mirage isn't there under all conditions and in wind over 12MPH mirage is essentially useless</div></div>

    Thats true, when wind velocity gets to a certain point its hard to see. But at that point, the wind is normally constant through out the range.</div></div>

    Not even close... trust me I shoot in heavy wind, the variations in high winds are easily 6 to 8MPH alone... wind is never constant. That is a fallacy, higher winds bring heavier gusts. Standing on the tower at RO for 1 minute alone with a meter can have the winds change from 8MPH to 20MPH in that short a span. Going from the ground to the first deck at 12ft can easily be a 4MPH change and then going to the second deck is another 6MPH on top of that... where is the constant.
     
    Re: Wind

    Looks like stuff from Litz's book?

    He made a good point in the book about wind ... it all depends.

    He said, paraphrased, of course:

    Wind near muzzle affects bullet early, which then continues to magnify roughly linearly out to 1000+?

    High-hight winds, such as wind out over a valley, move faster and make a big difference also... the max ordinate as posted above.

    Winds near the target blow on a slower moving bullet, which means they act on it for longer, which is also something to consider.

    It's all important, and more an art than science it seems to me. Practice beats the PDA calculator in this case.

    BN
     
    Re: Wind

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mirage isn't there under all conditions and in wind over 12MPH mirage is essentially useless</div></div>

    Thats true, when wind velocity gets to a certain point its hard to see. But at that point, the wind is normally constant through out the range.</div></div>

    Not even close... trust me I shoot in heavy wind, the variations in high winds are easily 6 to 8MPH alone... wind is never constant. That is a fallacy, higher winds bring heavier gusts. Standing on the tower at RO for 1 minute alone with a meter can have the winds change from 8MPH to 20MPH in that short a span. Going from the ground to the first deck at 12ft can easily be a 4MPH change and then going to the second deck is another 6MPH on top of that... where is the constant. </div></div>

    At the Cup the wind went from 24mph to 8 mph in a matter of seconds according to my Kestrel.
     
    Re: Wind

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blklabs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mirage isn't there under all conditions and in wind over 12MPH mirage is essentially useless</div></div>

    Thats true, when wind velocity gets to a certain point its hard to see. But at that point, the wind is normally constant through out the range.</div></div>

    Not even close... trust me I shoot in heavy wind, the variations in high winds are easily 6 to 8MPH alone... wind is never constant. That is a fallacy, higher winds bring heavier gusts. Standing on the tower at RO for 1 minute alone with a meter can have the winds change from 8MPH to 20MPH in that short a span. Going from the ground to the first deck at 12ft can easily be a 4MPH change and then going to the second deck is another 6MPH on top of that... where is the constant. </div></div>

    At the Cup the wind went from 24mph to 8 mph in a matter of seconds according to my Kestrel.

    </div></div>

    Back in 1978 stronger winds were more constant and didn't fluctuate like they do today.
    smile.gif


    Global Warming in all.
    wink.gif
     
    Re: Wind

    here real fast, just a few movie grabs to show the typical wind we shoot in... if you look up the averages on something like Wind Finder Pro, its between 12MPH and 16 MPH daily, which is more than most. There is virtually never a day without wind and we almost consider 6MPH or less a no wind day.

    <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Os6jNWyObos"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Os6jNWyObos" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

    Looking at that tree behind Jacob next to the tower, you can see how the prevailing winds have shaped the tree to grow at an angle, the leaves and branches are not straight up or straight out, but instead slanted in the direction the winds blow.

    The subsonic shots are at 200 yards and required pretty heavy compensation. We basically maxed out the scopes elevation at 11 mils to hit at that distance.
     
    Re: Wind

    Having recently trained at RO, I can attest to the wind there being wilful, fickle, inconstant, having you want to weep and highly likely to betray you right when you're about to take the money shot. Bit like the women <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Charlie</span> Victor the Lawnmower Man likes to date...
    wink.gif


    Hoo hoo.

     
    Re: Wind

    I call it an art for the man that consistantly has the ability to recognize the environmental signs of the effects of wind at the time of the shot and adapt his shot placement to compensate for wind because he knows the effects the wind will have on the shot. He knows this through science and experience. I believe consistantly, correctly compensating for wind is a learned skill.
     
    Re: Wind

    Didn't figure you would be. Was he Army or Marine?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a fan of a lot of how he phrases things in this video... </div></div>
     
    Re: Wind

    He was Army, but I have a lot of experience with 1st Bat, probably after him because I never met him at any class.

    Branch of service has no difference... a lot of it was discussed here, not only the how but the why. Much of which varies from his lesson.
     
    Re: Wind

    Thanks for all the info and discussion on this subject.No need to buy books with all this experience here on the hide.I'm just now learning as Lowlight put it: The Art of understanding wind. All this info is very helpful to us relatively new long range shooters.
     
    Re: Wind

    You cant truly learn how to play in the wind by reading about it in a book, sitting on your butt at the computer on a forum, or having someone tell you about it. You can only truly learn how to deal with it by getting out and playing in it. Besides, thats the fun way to learn!

    John
     
    Re: Wind

    I shoot Known Distances, unlimited sighters, COF's by preference.

    Once I've dialed in a basic zero, I fire a few rounds, without any further adjustment, under other, different wind indicator conditions. I take note of the POI displacement relative to the indicators. I believe this give me an edge by providing a relationship between certain additionally recognizable wind conditions and likely successful holdoffs.

    I also believe that nothing is exact about wind shooting. It's an art as opposed to a science. You can hedge your bets, but everybody gets it wrong at least sometimes.

    Greg
     
    Re: Wind

    Art is creative expression. Making a sight adjustment to counter for wind and weather effects, or any thing else that effects the bullet's trajectory, is not art; it's either an informed or ignorant response to the nature of external ballistics. Using the term art implies that those who can counter for wind correctly have done it by creative thought; and, that's just plain wrong.

    I don't like the word art in context to shooting, or in shooting jargon, except perhaps, when used to describe the work of a custom rifle maker, such as in praise of his aesthetic embellishment to a firearm. Describing a shooter as an artist for getting the wind right sounds like witch doctor to me. It's like we are either born with the ability or not. This kind of thinking thwarts learning. The truth is, you don't need to be an artist to counter for wind, you can do it painting by number.

    Go ahead, study art, heck, get a doctorate degree in it. Come to an understanding for the effects of value, texture, composition, color theory, space, and more; but, don't expect any of that to make you a better marksman, although you may be a more sensitive one.