Suppressors WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

C

CoCaDoRi

revived old guy
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 7, 2001
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North Georgia
#1
I figured this is the most reasonable place to post this as it deals with suppressors.

I'm currently searching for a competent lawyer or person who can help me with a NFA trust that is acceptable for N.C.

Anyone who has the means to or information on, please post here or PM me.

TIA!
 
#2
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

Give Travis a call at Carolina Moutain Tactical. They are great people to work with. Avoid Altamont Tactical at all costs.The dude is a class A douche nozzle!
 
#4
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

I'm talking to Dancy Arms of Salisbury, NC
They are a Class III dealer and stock some suppressors. They will set up a trust for you for $45 ($35 if you buy your hardware from them). Contact Sherril Dancy @ 704-638-0209 (after 7pm).
 
#6
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 9sigman45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm talking to Dancy Arms of Salisbury, NC
They are a Class III dealer and stock some suppressors. They will set up a trust for you for $45 ($35 if you buy your hardware from them). Contact Sherril Dancy @ 704-638-0209 (after 7pm). </div></div>

I would caution using a dealer for legal matters. Laws very from state to state and just because someone can use Willmaker does not mean that your trust is done right. BTW-I am not a lawyer, but had one who knew NFA do my NFA Trust and am glad I did.
 
#7
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mendocino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 9sigman45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm talking to Dancy Arms of Salisbury, NC
They are a Class III dealer and stock some suppressors. They will set up a trust for you for $45 ($35 if you buy your hardware from them). Contact Sherril Dancy @ 704-638-0209 (after 7pm). </div></div>

I would caution using a dealer for legal matters. Laws very from state to state and just because someone can use Willmaker does not mean that your trust is done right. BTW-I am not a lawyer, but had one who knew NFA do my NFA Trust and am glad I did. </div></div>

I highly agree and you really need a lawyer do the trust. Quicken is not language specific enough for NFA items.
 
#11
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

If you haven't tried to get your CLEO do an individual transfer yet, I would suggest attempting that route first.
The whole NFA trust thing in NC gets sticky.
This topic always seems to get folks panties twisted, but I feel that the information is worth passing along.
I posted this on another site a while back:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=68037
In response to this post:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I currently own 1 Suppressor. So I need to re-register it in North Carolina...

Can anyone help me with what I need to do?...

I live in Buncombe Co. I would like to purchase 2 additional suppressors. Does anyone have experiences with The Buncombe Co. Sherriff?

-or-

Should I have a living Trust drawn up? I think this actually might be easier. Does anyone have experience with a good Lawyer that is familiar with NFA verbage for a living trust?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.</div></div>
The reason that some are scared of an NFA Trust in NC is because the "SPECIAL DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL" JOHN J. ALDRIDGE, III
has stated on numerous occasions that his opinion of the NC statute is that Trusts are not a valid alternative to CLEO sign off.
He also has stated that he plans on having the statute clarified to reflect this.
Additionally, every time he speaks to members of the NC Sheriffs association, he encourages them to NOT sign any NFA packages.

http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/ncnfada/

Before anyone starts beating their chest on this, I do not have any opinion on this.
I personally do individual Form 1 & Form 4s.
I have now heard the exact same information regarding John Aldridge from 4 separate unrelated LEO sources.
I realize that a district attorney does not have any legislative power, I'm just repeating what I've heard.

Here is the real irony, John Aldridge is big into Three Gun & USPSA shooting.
He just doesn't believe that civilians should be able to play with NFA items.

A good friend of mine gave me some very good advise prior to getting into the NFA game.
He suggested this approach to me and I sure am glad he did.
Ended up getting to know my Sherriff pretty well and now every time I need a CLEO sign off, I need to allow an hour or two to account for conversation.

Approach the CLEO sign off like a job interview.
- Have all of your paperwork complete and ready to sign with signature flags.
- Learn all State and Local laws regarding NFA stuff and bring copies of them with you.
- Make an appointment to see him, but be vague with the purpose.
- Dress nice and be courteous.
- Explain the NFA process to him and honestly convey why you want the items.
(If you want them just to collect and have fun, then tell him that.)
- Be sure to tell him that the purpose for his signature is to ensure that it is legal for you to posses, not a personal endorsement.

Whatever you do, do not say "If you don't sign I'll just go around you via a Trust."
Not a good way to make friends.

Many NC Sheriffs interpret the NC statute to require that you either have a valid business to fulfill the "Research & Development" purpose or a C&R FFL to fulfill the "Validly Licensed Collector" purpose.
Having a C&R FFL is inexpensive ($30 for three years) and also has numerous other benefits such as dealer pricing from Midway USA.

One other thing that is good policy too.
It is bad form to post up Sheriffs names that are willing to sign off.
That is a good way to have a willing Sheriff turn into an unwilling Sheriff.
All it would take would be for one person to say "I read online that you sign off on NFA items."
What would help clarify things greatly would be a "Shall Sign" statute on the books like Tennessee has so that ownership of NFA items isn't at the discretion of the CLEO.

If you already own the items though, don't you just have to complete the ATF Form 5320.20?
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-20.pdf
("Permanent change of address" is listed as an example of a reason on the form.)
I don't think that you have to get sign off or anything else like that.
In fact, you don't even have to mail the form.
You could just fax it to them.
Give the BATF a call just to be sure though...
BATF NFA Branch (304) 616-4500

Anyhow, that is how the whole NFA thing plays out in NC.
 
#13
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Apple Law Firm in Florida. They write it and have it checked by a local lawyer in your state. </div></div>

they want $750.00 to do a trust, holy crap.....
 
#14
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

As Mendicino and KYS338 suggest, NFA Trust in NC are a bear trap waiting to be sprung. It is our opinion that there are dealers out there that are only out for a fast buck and practicing law without a license. Please be very careful of these people.

Others have said they have a problem finding an attorney to draw up an NFA trust...you should should consider that a "CLUE."

Dr. Phil has stated it very well. I have given the same advice for many years...since the infamous AG opinion of 1999. Take a bit of time to get to know your Sheriff, he is the ONLY person in NC that can sign a form 1 or form 4.

I have known John Aldridge for many years and shot matches with him, in fact we talked just last week. John is not anti NFA, but, he is the man at the AG's office who has to determine and interpret what NC statues are and how they apply, as currently written, to NFA items.

We are one of WNC's oldest NFA or class III dealers (since 1986) and are happy to discuss/help anyone with a sincere interest in NFA type weapons or suppressors.

Phil & Nancy Flack

HK Law Enforcement Dealer since 1988
BUSHMASTER Law Enforcement Dealer

PF Custom Guns
18 Sunset Drive
Asheville, NC 28806
(828)252-9487 (828)254-7108 FAX

''Life's tough......it's even tougher if you're stupid.'' -- John Wayne
 
#15
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

It is a shame one mans interpretation makes such a difference. I know my sheriff well and signatures are not an issue. I would like to go with a trust for other benefits. Not to mention wait time appears considerably less with a trust.....from following the form 4 thread. I have found as stated above that it is shakey ground at best in NC......so, signature and wait 4-6 months. Suppressors are very addictive though so I guess you just have to play the game.
 
#16
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pfcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have known John Aldridge for many years and shot matches with him, in fact we talked just last week. John is not anti NFA, but, he is the man at the AG's office who has to determine and interpret what NC statues are and how they apply, as currently written, to NFA items.</div></div>
Phil,

Since you are tight with John Aldridge, could you please clarify what his opinion is on NFA items?
I've heard that his stance on Machine Guns is separate than SBRs & Suppressors.
Why does he always seem to discourage Sheriffs from signing when he speaks at the NC Sheriff Association functions?

You say that he is "not anti NFA", so he is just against people using trusts or what?
Just trying to better understand his thinking.
 
#18
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

Dr. Phil: Great questions...first understand I have been a CIII dealer/CII Mfg since 1986. Yeah, right after the law changed in May,'86.

John's opinions, as I have discussed with him several times over the years are his "professional" opinions interpreting the NC statues. If you read these statues carefully they do not exactly say that an individual can own a mg or suppressor(or AOW and SBR for that matter) but at the same time they don't exactly say that you can't either. Vague at best is a pretty good term.

Suppressors, AOWs and SBR (along with bombs and grenades) are listed in NC Statue 14-288.8 as weapons of mass death and destruction. Machine guns are covered under 14-409 a separate statue. Thus his apparent different stance or opinion on Suppressors and MGs.

I think your question is worded perfectly; "why does he always seem to discourage Sheriffs for signing...."

I have not heard exactly what he has said, obviously, as I am not a Sheriff. But the Sheriff's I have talked to about his statements, seem to be more along the lines of John cautioning them to be careful to make sure NC statues are met, before signing...IE the scientific research and experimental purposes clause.

Also, I understand from a couple of Sheriff's and from John himself, He is suggesting that they look at each on a case by case basis. So, let's say I ask my Sheriff about a suppressor for the purpose of A, B and C and he is satisfied that the proposal or evidence that I have given him falls within the bounds of the statue for that particular weapon or suppressor then all is OK. Therefore he can fully justify his signing say 5 years down the road.

Further, I think some Sheriff's who personally have problems with NFA items, tends to pass the "blame" for lack of a better word onto John and the AGs office.

Also, and this is my opinion only, I don't think some Sheriff's take time to read what the form 4 actually says. The wording on the form 4 or form 1 is pretty similar to the certification statement on most NC hand gun purchase permits. At least that is the way I read it.

Trust...very simple. There are no provisions in NC law that provide for a trust. Anywhere in any shape or form. Does ATF approve them, yes..BUT. Sooner or later there is going to be a test case, I don't want to be part of it. NC law requires a permit from the Sheriff for a NFA transfer. Using a trust in an attempt to avoid this is asking for trouble. Transferring a NFA item into a trust after you legally own said item has many benefits if something happen to the owner. As I read the law, having your Sheriff sign a form 4 for your trust also works.

Something coming down the pike. At the National Firearms Act Trade Collectors Association (NFATCA) meeting in Las Vegas during the recent SHOT show. We were told that there is a pretty good chance that the DOJ and ATF may drop the CLEO signature requirement from the form 1 & 4. I asked John specifically how this would affect NFA Transfers in NC. He stated that it would not change ANYTHING as NC law still says that a permit from the Sheriff is required. The permit, in the past I have seen a couple of Sheriff's that have a separate permit and a couple that have taken their handgun purchase permit and crossed out handgun and put machinegun in addition to signing the form 4. Most have just considered their signature on the form 4 as their "permit."

Dr Phil, it ain't pretty, but John Aldridge is not a bad guy. Our current legislature may just be the one to get these laws reworded a little bit. SC changed their NFA laws from NO to shall issue just a few years ago.

I look forward to your comments.

....a plug for the NFATCA http://www.nfatca.org/ a great organization that exist solely for the NFA community.

Phil
 
#19
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Transferring a NFA item into a trust after you legally own said item has many benefits if something happen to the owner.
</div></div>

I would like my items in a trust to facilitate transfering ownership after I am not here or if something happened to me. However, I don't see how putting them in a trust (since a trust is not a good idea for purchase in NC) would be beneficial.
 
#20
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

Phil,

Thank you VERY much for the explanation!

I am thankful to have your commentary.
It is rare enough to be able to discus NFA related issues with someone that has been in the business as long as yourself,
it is even more valuable since you also have a rapport with the Deputy Attorney General.
What you said is a bit of a comfort to know that John Aldridge isn't as evil as I once thought.
wink.gif


Your explanation jives with everything that I have heard and fills in a few holes to boot.
It was my understanding that the "Permit" requirement was only for machine guns as per what came out of the "infamous AG opinion of 1999".
I agree that the language in the NC Statute needs to be cleaned up so that there are not as many "grey" areas.
There are too many ways that it can be interpreted to say completely different things.
What constitutes the "Research & Development" or a "Validly Licensed Collector" for instance.
Who says that someone can't develop an invention in their garage prior to starting a company to make the product.
If holding a C&R FFL makes you licensed, what if you don't renew every three years?

The danger of doing this is that it allows a perfect opportunity for anti-gunners to make NFA items even more difficult to obtain in NC.
Personally, I am ok with requiring the Sheriff's signature for all NFA items (Trust & LLC included) as long as it is done the same way concealed carry permits are done.
Shall sign makes perfect sense and is more reasonable than leaving it up to the sole discretion of the local Sheriff.
The way things are currently done in NC pretty much allows for Sheriffs to make their own laws in the counties that they serve.
It is much the same way that "Jim Crow" laws were, purely but legally discriminatory.
A "Shall Sign" clause like the ones that SC & TN recently enacted would be a very simple solution to that.
Personally, I would also really like to see "Machine Guns" put into the same category as other NFA items instead of having their own set of requirements.

The National Firearms Act Trade Collectors Association (NFATCA) seems like a wonderful organization.
I looked into becoming a member a few months ago but didn't find a whole lot of information at the time.
It would be nice if they could be attached in some way to the NRA.
If nothing else, it would allow them to utilize some of the assets that the NRA is able to wield.

The thing that I keep coming across is that NFA always seems to be the sacrificial lamb of the firearms community.
Since NFA has a stigma attached to it mostly due to Hollywood and cosmetic reasons, the typical uninformed gun guys think that they are already illegal.
Once they find out that they aren't, they are willing to offer NFA up as a concession every time gun control hits the table.
 
#22
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

GG: Basically,You asked and answered your own question.
Trust are not a good ideal (read that as not legal) to avoid the Sheriff's permit.
Once you legally own a NFA item in NC a trust would not be a bad idea along with other high value possessions...but I am pretty sure that it would involve another $200 transfer tax.
Keep in mind, NFA items can be transferred "tax Free" from your estate to a legal heir. That would mean Wife, Son, Daughter, Brother etc...third cousin on the wife's stepfather's side of the family would have to pay the tax out of the estate.
I hope this helps:

Phil
 
#23
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

Dr. Phil: Thank you for the kind words.

The many ways R&D can be interpreted is spot on. Like you have stated above... get to know your Sheriff and above all be honest with the man! He did not get to be the high Sheriff because he has a low BS detector. I like your job interview analogy.

If testing your new .308 loads without disturbing the neighbors on Saturday afternoon is justification enough for one .30 cal suppressor then you get a signed form 4. That item, for that purpose on that day. Plus I doubt the Sheriff is ever going to be questioned about the authority already given to him by state law. Now if you then go a do something really stupid with your new suppressor. The rest of us will hate you and come spit on your grave!!!

I had a Sheriff (now retired) tell me once that if a man wanted a nice old Thompson to put in his collection, he did not have a problem with that. Considering the cost, background check etc. But, he personally could see no reason or practical purpose for a silencer. Assassin's tool I think he also mentioned. Guess what? There weren't no suppressors in his county. And No, I will not violate his trust.

Like you, I curious about a C&R license. To be honest I don't think I have ever thought about a C&R in the NC NFA mix. New question for John next time I talk with him!!!! I doubt not renewing it would be a problem. I can keep the transferable and pre 1986 dealer sample NFA items I have now if I don't renew my SOT.

My recollection of history is that the Sheriff was suppose to be the CLEO in his county for a reason. Being an elected position is a big part of that. Also as I understand the CLEO signature on the form 4 dates back to 1935 or so. (Yes the NFA was 1934) It was a revision of sorts to the NFA of 1934. The thought being at that time, a local Chief of Police, Sheriff or District Attorney would probably know more about people in their counties/towns than the Feds would. Just as the $200 TAX was going to be the "deterrent" to citizens buying machine guns. Remember new Tommy Guns were at the local hardware store for around $175 back then.

Look around our state and see which counties have a county Police Department...Gaston County is one that I personally know of. Horry County in SC (Conway/Myrtle Beach) is another. The history as I have been told, is the Sheriff had become so powerful/corrupt during the Depression years the only way his wings could be clipped was to take away his law enforcement powers. By Charter the Sheriff's Office is to provide a Jail, security for the courts and warrant and process service. Thus I agree with you again the Sheriff CAN make law in his county.

As I said above, the current Republican control of the state house and senate might just be our best chance of getting some changes.

I also agree that NFA weapons have historically been the first to be thrown under the bus in making compromises with the anti gunners. It never seems to make the press or news that NFA has been registered and taxed since 1934. Or that the process of owning one includes a $200 tax, submission of finger prints, photos and months of waiting....the All Barack Channel (ABC) never mentions those "FACTS!!" Add that stupid Sons of Guns show on the Discovery Channel, while i find it "entertaining" it sure does not help the NFA cause any. ...and $3000 for a suppressed 10/22!!!

I am a bit of a charter member of the NFATCA. Started with a conversation with Dan Shea, Kent Lamont, myself and three or four others at Knob Creek sometime around 2006 or so. Associated with the NRA, hell no. While I am a NRA member and have been since the mid 70's the sacrificed the NFA community that lead to the machinegun ban in 1986. Signed by the last true "leader" we have had in the White House, President Reagan. IIRC, he signed it because it had the NRA blessing.

OK, it's late...take care:

Phil
 
#24
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

OP,
Sorry for the Hijack of your thread...

Phil,
That is some interesting history right there…
It is my understanding that the County Coroner typically is who has oversight over the County Sheriff.
Not sure if that is the case in NC or not.

My first actual introduction to the NFA world was about 8 years ago when I purchased a Krinker Plinker kit for my 10/22 on Gun Broker and when it arrived it was the SBR version.
This was unexpected and since I still wanted the kit, I started to "get smart" on the NFA process.
In doing so, I completed a Form 1 and just dropped it off at the front counter of my local Sheriff's office.
About two weeks later I hadn't heard anything so I stopped by to check on things.
The Sheriff wasn't in, but the receptionist assured me that he would be in touch.
Later that day I received a call from him and he told me that he spoke with the NC Attorney General's office (later found out that he is friends with John Aldridge)
and that to qualify for the legally allowed purposes I would either have to own a business to qualify for the R&D purposes or hold a C&R to be a "Licensed Collector" .
I asked him in a quite frank manner if I were to go through the trouble of getting my C&R would he be willing to sign.
He said, "Sir, I am all about having as many of my Citizens have as many firearms as possible."
I said thank you very much Sheriff and hung up.
Went ahead and got my C&R but held off on my first Form 1 since I planned on moving into a neighboring county in a few months.

In the mean time, I hooked up with a few local "Sniper's Hide" members for a casual shoot at a local farm and one of the guys had a full auto MP5 and a half dozen suppressors.
He is a member of the NC NFA Defense Association and was the one that gave me the advice on approaching the Sheriff in person and to act as if it were a job interview.
http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/ncnfada/

Shortly after that I followed his advice and made friends with the Sheriff of the new county that I moved to.
When I approached him, I did so with all of my paperwork completed with flags stuck to them for where to sign.
I also had copies of my C&R FFL, Concealed Carry Permit, Printed copy of the NC Firearm Laws PDF with relevant sections highlighted, and photos of the items I wanted to obtain.
After the initial introductions, he looked over the folder full of documentation and held up the copy of my C&R FFL and said, "I normally don't sign these, but if the Feds know about you than I don't have a problem with it."
He then proceeded to tell me all the dirt about the folks that lived on my road and who I needed to be wary of.

So, as far as C&R FFLs go, I can't see a down side to it.
$30 every three years is all it costs, you get dealer pricing at such places as Midway USA and at least in NC it makes you a "Licensed Collector".
I'm not even remotely interested in collecting items that are on the C&R list, but it is nice when something that you are looking to get just happens to qualify.
(Thompson, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, & Makarov pistols for instance.)

I did not realize we were in such good shape politically in the NC House and Senate.
Are there any active pro-gun efforts underway other than the Castle Doctrine?
(The main things that I would love to see is Castle Doctrine, Concealed Carry reforms similar to the ones that VA did, and reforming the NC NFA laws to make is "Shall Sign".)
Is there anything that the NFATCA can do to help?
Is there anything that we can do to help?
What are the compelling reasons to join the NFATCA?

The two main members of the NC NFA Defense Association that I know are currently bogged down dealing with the shooting ordinances in Jefferson County.
http://www.theherald-nc.com/2010/10/06/16047/stray-gunshots-worry-neighbors.html
http://www.ncgunowners.com/forum/Thread-Johnston-County-NC-wants-to-restrict-target-shooting
I'm not sure how active they are at this time though.
(I'm not currently a member of either organization, but as a disabled vet I got a killer rate on a lifetime membership to the NRA.)

Thanks again for the info!
Please post up any coments that you get from John Alderidge as well...
 
#25
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

If you contact Altamont Tactical in Weaverville they can help you with the trust and your purchase. Their contact infor is 828-206-9160 or 828-279-7973
 
#26
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crystal28753</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you contact Altamont Tactical in Weaverville they can help you with the trust and your purchase. Their contact infor is 828-206-9160 or 828-279-7973
</div></div>

you didn't read ANY of the replies above yours, did you?

trust = sketch, at best, in NC.


and i'm glad i came across this thread, i'm seriously considering a suppressor for my .22lr's....

i guess, lucky for me, my granddad was mayor here for 28 some years..and the sheriff has his office right next to his lol.
 
#28
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

I appreciate all the replies. No matter which direction I go it sounds like it's going to be a hassle. I completely understand the premises and reasoning behind the "job interview" approach. To actually have to play that game because 1 person has that much power is down right maddening. If he is having a bad day or I say something he misinterprets it could end right there. I have had numerous background checks and already have been cleared for CCW permits in numerous states and legally own a suppressor as it stands.
I have heard mixed reports about the CLEO in this county and some things that make me nervous are the fact "I'm not a local, born and raised here" There seems to be a lot of that attitude in this part of NC. Since I have one suppressor I'm guessing trying to own 1 or 2 more will be problematic at best.
 
#29
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

cocador: I have sent you a couple of pms.
If you will come by or give us a call, I'm pretty sure we can help you with a can or two.

[email protected]

Phil & Nancy Flack

HK Law Enforcement Dealer since 1988
BUSHMASTER Law Enforcement Dealer

P F Custom Guns
18 Sunset Drive
Asheville, NC 28806
(828)252-9487 (828)254-7108 FAX

''Life's tough......it's even tougher if you're stupid.'' -- John Wayne
 
#30
Re: WNC NFA Trust ( Need some help )

Well, I was holding off posting this until I got confirmation, which I did friday night at the range. The Sheriff for the county I live in, in NC, will NOT sign off unless you are one of his buddies (or, according to one individual, a major campaign contributor).

So... if this is the case, then one would have to go with a trust, right? (moving out of the county isn't an option right now).
 
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