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Hunting & Fishing wolves
- Thread starter kurt
- Start date
Re: wolves
Ever noticed that the folks who live in places without wolves think wolves are a tremendous asset to the environment and those who live in areas with wolves feel the wolves should be eliminated...?
Now, who do you think has a better understanding of the true impact of wolves on the environment and the local economy?
I would say wolf re-introduction is a great concept...as long as the wolves are introduced in Central Park and/or other Parks close to, or surrounded by, the population centers that feel they need wolves and want to be able to view them in the "wild". Then, those that introduced them can live with the "natural" impacts the wolves provide and deal with the wolves with any means they feel is appropriate when the wolves disregard the boundaries set by those that introduced them...
Ever noticed that the folks who live in places without wolves think wolves are a tremendous asset to the environment and those who live in areas with wolves feel the wolves should be eliminated...?
Now, who do you think has a better understanding of the true impact of wolves on the environment and the local economy?
I would say wolf re-introduction is a great concept...as long as the wolves are introduced in Central Park and/or other Parks close to, or surrounded by, the population centers that feel they need wolves and want to be able to view them in the "wild". Then, those that introduced them can live with the "natural" impacts the wolves provide and deal with the wolves with any means they feel is appropriate when the wolves disregard the boundaries set by those that introduced them...
Re: wolves
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not opposed to hunting them in moderation (like everything else), but the "they're taking my trophy game" argument doesn't quite sit well.
I've noted on these boards before that unless it directly affects game herds, most hunters really couldn't care less about any other environmental factors. </div></div>
Ain't that the damn truth. And I am the first one to side with the farmers, ranchers and hunters. Kill the wolves just short of extinction and keep the pressure on them continuously. Same with coyotes, then we can concentrate on the hogs, armadillos, possums, coons ect...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not opposed to hunting them in moderation (like everything else), but the "they're taking my trophy game" argument doesn't quite sit well.
I've noted on these boards before that unless it directly affects game herds, most hunters really couldn't care less about any other environmental factors. </div></div>
Ain't that the damn truth. And I am the first one to side with the farmers, ranchers and hunters. Kill the wolves just short of extinction and keep the pressure on them continuously. Same with coyotes, then we can concentrate on the hogs, armadillos, possums, coons ect...
Re: wolves
If you have not had wolves introduced in your area, you are simply speaking ignorantly. Please don't use the term "re-introduce" for these wolves the feds put in Idaho. They are Canadian Gray Wolves. They are much larger than the wolves Idaho once had. I am not a trophy hunter, I hunt for meat. If I saw a bunch of hunters gut shoot numerous pregnant cow elk and let them suffer and die I would be infuriated. Now, to see a pack of wolves rip open the stomach of a pregnant cow elk, just to eat the fetus and placenta, then leave the cow elk to bledd to death, again I am infuriated. I don't shoot anything I don't eat, including prairie dogs, but learn about wolves from EXPERIENCE and you will feel the same way.
If you have not had wolves introduced in your area, you are simply speaking ignorantly. Please don't use the term "re-introduce" for these wolves the feds put in Idaho. They are Canadian Gray Wolves. They are much larger than the wolves Idaho once had. I am not a trophy hunter, I hunt for meat. If I saw a bunch of hunters gut shoot numerous pregnant cow elk and let them suffer and die I would be infuriated. Now, to see a pack of wolves rip open the stomach of a pregnant cow elk, just to eat the fetus and placenta, then leave the cow elk to bledd to death, again I am infuriated. I don't shoot anything I don't eat, including prairie dogs, but learn about wolves from EXPERIENCE and you will feel the same way.
Re: wolves
Last fall I saw 149 sheep killed in one night by a small pack of wolves, they were training pups not one was eaten. In another area a pack of 8 were training pups and they killed 12 cows
That is very rare but it does happen. Its happened a couple of times WI that I know of. Always on a starving heard(whitetail) due to a hard winter.
Last fall I saw 149 sheep killed in one night by a small pack of wolves, they were training pups not one was eaten. In another area a pack of 8 were training pups and they killed 12 cows
That is very rare but it does happen. Its happened a couple of times WI that I know of. Always on a starving heard(whitetail) due to a hard winter.
Re: wolves
i live in wyoming and i have seen what the wolfes have done to our game population. the first pack i saw was in yellowstone in the lamar valley area and yes they were a very awsome and majestic sight to see until i watched that pack tear apart a muley buck.it was kind of horrifing to watch really.there are now known packs in the bighorns al the way down through kaycee and probably further south im sure. i believe that the wild animals should remain in the wild.but why not let people hunt them for sport to help control the pop before it gets worse.. just my thoughts
i live in wyoming and i have seen what the wolfes have done to our game population. the first pack i saw was in yellowstone in the lamar valley area and yes they were a very awsome and majestic sight to see until i watched that pack tear apart a muley buck.it was kind of horrifing to watch really.there are now known packs in the bighorns al the way down through kaycee and probably further south im sure. i believe that the wild animals should remain in the wild.but why not let people hunt them for sport to help control the pop before it gets worse.. just my thoughts
Re: wolves
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Last fall I saw 149 sheep killed in one night by a small pack of wolves, they were training pups not one was eaten. In another area a pack of 8 were training pups and they killed 12 cows
That is very rare but it does happen. Its happened a couple of times WI that I know of. Always on a starving heard(whitetail) due to a hard winter. </div></div>
It common around here, they mainly do it with livestock cause there easy to train on, the coyotes will to the same with sheep but you'll only find a half a dozen not dozens. I know of 44 wolves that the feds killed for this behavior in the last 4 months.
I had no problem with the wolves that were here before, they stayed out of trouble and didn't go on killing spree's and they were in balance with the game, these Canadian wolves are devastating, they are top of the food chain here with nothing but starvation to stop them, good bye deer, elk, sheep and moose in the Rockies, another poor management move in the interest of politics and idiocy !!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Last fall I saw 149 sheep killed in one night by a small pack of wolves, they were training pups not one was eaten. In another area a pack of 8 were training pups and they killed 12 cows
That is very rare but it does happen. Its happened a couple of times WI that I know of. Always on a starving heard(whitetail) due to a hard winter. </div></div>
It common around here, they mainly do it with livestock cause there easy to train on, the coyotes will to the same with sheep but you'll only find a half a dozen not dozens. I know of 44 wolves that the feds killed for this behavior in the last 4 months.
I had no problem with the wolves that were here before, they stayed out of trouble and didn't go on killing spree's and they were in balance with the game, these Canadian wolves are devastating, they are top of the food chain here with nothing but starvation to stop them, good bye deer, elk, sheep and moose in the Rockies, another poor management move in the interest of politics and idiocy !!
Re: wolves
People seem to think the expression, "the Wolf's at the Door" is simply a turn of phrase.
For millennia, the admixture of wolves and rabies was the number one threat to human existence in Northern Europe. Not hard to understand the genesis of the werewolf legends.
Nowadays, because of such ancestral memories, we have hunted the wolf to a mere shadow of its natural presence. I don't hold the wolf in any sort of special reverence, but between them and the coyotes, I think that very time some goon goes out and destroys one indiscriminately, our balance of species goes another tiny tick deeper into the red.
Yes, a sympathize with the herders regarding their losses due to lupine depredation.
But by the same token, I remind us all, the wolf was there first, and the herders brought their problems with them into the wilderness.
You fill the frontier with prey animals, the predators are going to take notice. Kinda hard to take them to task for taking advantage of the smorgasbord the herders were kind enough to gratuitously place on their table.
Every time one of us destroys a predator, we are bestowed with the obligation to fullfill that predator's place in the environment as a check on the unfettered expansion of the prey species. They need predation in order to keep them healthy and limited to numbers their niche can support.
In my mind they just pat themselves on the back and say, "Oh what a good boy am I", swing on up into their mega-pickups, and truck on back to civilization, and screw the prey animals. Then they lament the environmental imbalance and mutter about how all them ignoramus bleeding heart tree huggers are mucking up <span style="font-style: italic">their</span> wilderness.
Right...
Where I have problems with wolves and coyotes is the situations where they encroach and infiltrate areas of significant human habitation.
Once again, this is not attributable to the wolf, etc., except in that they are simply following their natures. We are the one who are cavalier in our attitudes toward feeding wild animals, and behaving irresponsibly when we secure our trash.
When the predators slink in to suck up on the freebies, they get accustomed to the surroundings and tend to lop off the local low hanging fruit, like lapdogs and kitties on the prowl, and the occasional stupid kid who thinks that humans are immortal, and the big wild doggies are like, rad..., man...
Greg
People seem to think the expression, "the Wolf's at the Door" is simply a turn of phrase.
For millennia, the admixture of wolves and rabies was the number one threat to human existence in Northern Europe. Not hard to understand the genesis of the werewolf legends.
Nowadays, because of such ancestral memories, we have hunted the wolf to a mere shadow of its natural presence. I don't hold the wolf in any sort of special reverence, but between them and the coyotes, I think that very time some goon goes out and destroys one indiscriminately, our balance of species goes another tiny tick deeper into the red.
Yes, a sympathize with the herders regarding their losses due to lupine depredation.
But by the same token, I remind us all, the wolf was there first, and the herders brought their problems with them into the wilderness.
You fill the frontier with prey animals, the predators are going to take notice. Kinda hard to take them to task for taking advantage of the smorgasbord the herders were kind enough to gratuitously place on their table.
Every time one of us destroys a predator, we are bestowed with the obligation to fullfill that predator's place in the environment as a check on the unfettered expansion of the prey species. They need predation in order to keep them healthy and limited to numbers their niche can support.
In my mind they just pat themselves on the back and say, "Oh what a good boy am I", swing on up into their mega-pickups, and truck on back to civilization, and screw the prey animals. Then they lament the environmental imbalance and mutter about how all them ignoramus bleeding heart tree huggers are mucking up <span style="font-style: italic">their</span> wilderness.
Right...
Where I have problems with wolves and coyotes is the situations where they encroach and infiltrate areas of significant human habitation.
Once again, this is not attributable to the wolf, etc., except in that they are simply following their natures. We are the one who are cavalier in our attitudes toward feeding wild animals, and behaving irresponsibly when we secure our trash.
When the predators slink in to suck up on the freebies, they get accustomed to the surroundings and tend to lop off the local low hanging fruit, like lapdogs and kitties on the prowl, and the occasional stupid kid who thinks that humans are immortal, and the big wild doggies are like, rad..., man...
Greg
Re: wolves
One thing you have to remember that the wolf that was introduced into the lower 48 was NOT the wolf that was native to this habitat.
The wolf that was native in now gone, it was a lot smaller and did not breed as fast or run in large packs like the ones we have now.
The Canadian Wolf we have now is a super predator which this kind of country can't sustain, we just don't have the country or the animal size and density.
We have wolves attaching horses in sub divisions man they are not staying on the outer edges, they are loosing there suspicion of man. Yes livestock gets hit in the mountains in the summer and fall but understand we had wolves before and the native wolves did not kill livestock as hard and in the numbers that the Canadian wolves do, we were living just fine with the native wolves, they could have helped them out but they wanted to introduce a super predator so now were here.
I have not primal hate for the wolf it's just another animal to me, in fact I loved to watch the native wolves I didn't bother them at all they were well balance with there environment not like what we have now. Remember we have taken a predator from one kind of environment and introduced it into another were it wasn't before, two different environments and prey species and the same super predator what do you think will happen in the weaker environment?
One thing you have to remember that the wolf that was introduced into the lower 48 was NOT the wolf that was native to this habitat.
The wolf that was native in now gone, it was a lot smaller and did not breed as fast or run in large packs like the ones we have now.
The Canadian Wolf we have now is a super predator which this kind of country can't sustain, we just don't have the country or the animal size and density.
We have wolves attaching horses in sub divisions man they are not staying on the outer edges, they are loosing there suspicion of man. Yes livestock gets hit in the mountains in the summer and fall but understand we had wolves before and the native wolves did not kill livestock as hard and in the numbers that the Canadian wolves do, we were living just fine with the native wolves, they could have helped them out but they wanted to introduce a super predator so now were here.
I have not primal hate for the wolf it's just another animal to me, in fact I loved to watch the native wolves I didn't bother them at all they were well balance with there environment not like what we have now. Remember we have taken a predator from one kind of environment and introduced it into another were it wasn't before, two different environments and prey species and the same super predator what do you think will happen in the weaker environment?
Re: wolves
I have no issue with that...
In the end, I think the more we try to 'fix' nature, the more we muck it up. Nature knows how to fix nature, we're just a bunch of eager, if arrogant, amateurs.
Arrogant amateurs, whether the issue be environmental balance, global warming, you name it. Arrogant, first, in thinking that our own contributions will permanently alter the biosphere, and arrogant, second, in thinking we either can or MUST restore it.
If we wipe something out, we're simply doing what nature has be doing, all by itself, for eons. Nature knows how to handle it. When a niche falls empty, something will always evolve to fill it.
We are not nature's nemesis.
We are just another natural segment of nature itself, performing our naturally ordained role in the processes of extinction and evolution.
Some day we will be gone too, and nature will soon gussy up another species to fill <span style="font-style: italic">our</span> niche.
No niche stays empty for long, and that's what the econazis keep staring in the face, while never seeing.
Greg
I have no issue with that...
In the end, I think the more we try to 'fix' nature, the more we muck it up. Nature knows how to fix nature, we're just a bunch of eager, if arrogant, amateurs.
Arrogant amateurs, whether the issue be environmental balance, global warming, you name it. Arrogant, first, in thinking that our own contributions will permanently alter the biosphere, and arrogant, second, in thinking we either can or MUST restore it.
If we wipe something out, we're simply doing what nature has be doing, all by itself, for eons. Nature knows how to handle it. When a niche falls empty, something will always evolve to fill it.
We are not nature's nemesis.
We are just another natural segment of nature itself, performing our naturally ordained role in the processes of extinction and evolution.
Some day we will be gone too, and nature will soon gussy up another species to fill <span style="font-style: italic">our</span> niche.
No niche stays empty for long, and that's what the econazis keep staring in the face, while never seeing.
Greg
Re: wolves
I read a article in a hunting magazine that my grandpa gets. And wolves are a lot bigger than coyotes. A pure coyote and a pure timber wolf are a lot different in size. Wolves being way heavier/ bigger jaws. Lots of other things. But anyway i read this article about how they were doing research in some state (cant remember) and they were finding unbelievably large coyote skulls. Well with later research they found out, that thier cross breading with wolves...
This could become a huge problem. Right now we got pretty small coyotes (compared to wolves) running around. And there a huge problem with smalll game animals... Just think if they get bigger, stronger, faster?
You know?
I read a article in a hunting magazine that my grandpa gets. And wolves are a lot bigger than coyotes. A pure coyote and a pure timber wolf are a lot different in size. Wolves being way heavier/ bigger jaws. Lots of other things. But anyway i read this article about how they were doing research in some state (cant remember) and they were finding unbelievably large coyote skulls. Well with later research they found out, that thier cross breading with wolves...
This could become a huge problem. Right now we got pretty small coyotes (compared to wolves) running around. And there a huge problem with smalll game animals... Just think if they get bigger, stronger, faster?
You know?
Re: wolves
That state you can't remember is probably Pennsylvania.
There was an article about a month or so ago in the local Sunday paper that talked about how PA is a breeding intersection for coyotes from further west and the northern coyotes. But researchers believe that PA coyotes have also interbred with wolves many years ago.
Also about a month ago I was at my shooting range and struck up a conversation with a guy who, I figured, was shooting his coyote rig. Soon another guy joined in the conversation and disclosed that he had just shot a large coyote, large as in 50lbs. He killed the coyote about 3 miles from where I live.
I'd love to go wolf hunting but since I can't afford to do so at the moment, large coyotes will suffice.
That state you can't remember is probably Pennsylvania.
There was an article about a month or so ago in the local Sunday paper that talked about how PA is a breeding intersection for coyotes from further west and the northern coyotes. But researchers believe that PA coyotes have also interbred with wolves many years ago.
Also about a month ago I was at my shooting range and struck up a conversation with a guy who, I figured, was shooting his coyote rig. Soon another guy joined in the conversation and disclosed that he had just shot a large coyote, large as in 50lbs. He killed the coyote about 3 miles from where I live.
I'd love to go wolf hunting but since I can't afford to do so at the moment, large coyotes will suffice.
Re: wolves
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forest12</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read a article in a hunting magazine that my grandpa gets. And wolves are a lot bigger than coyotes. A pure coyote and a pure timber wolf are a lot different in size. Wolves being way heavier/ bigger jaws. Lots of other things. But anyway i read this article about how they were doing research in some state (cant remember) and they were finding unbelievably large coyote skulls. Well with later research they found out, that thier cross breading with wolves...
This could become a huge problem. Right now we got pretty small coyotes (compared to wolves) running around. And there a huge problem with smalll game animals... Just think if they get bigger, stronger, faster?
You know? </div></div>
Plus you might want to bring up that Timber wolves are bigger than grey wolves. I came across three wolves up in fourth of july past which is only about sixteen miles from Coeur D'Alene Idaho. I was about another twenty minutes in where we were hunting. They came right up on the trail I was walking then split at about twenty yards away. The black ones are spooky as shit when they show up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forest12</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read a article in a hunting magazine that my grandpa gets. And wolves are a lot bigger than coyotes. A pure coyote and a pure timber wolf are a lot different in size. Wolves being way heavier/ bigger jaws. Lots of other things. But anyway i read this article about how they were doing research in some state (cant remember) and they were finding unbelievably large coyote skulls. Well with later research they found out, that thier cross breading with wolves...
This could become a huge problem. Right now we got pretty small coyotes (compared to wolves) running around. And there a huge problem with smalll game animals... Just think if they get bigger, stronger, faster?
You know? </div></div>
Plus you might want to bring up that Timber wolves are bigger than grey wolves. I came across three wolves up in fourth of july past which is only about sixteen miles from Coeur D'Alene Idaho. I was about another twenty minutes in where we were hunting. They came right up on the trail I was walking then split at about twenty yards away. The black ones are spooky as shit when they show up.
Re: wolves
man...this wolf thing sucks. I came across these hunting pics in Idaho yesterday
http://www.quarterminutemagnums.com/a_hunting_we_will_go1_accurate_custom_hunting_rifles.asp
and planned on hunting up there till I saw the guys "barter/trade" page looking to trade custom guns for places to hunt where game isn't depleted. I'd give anything to hunt that kind of country and game. I wish I had gone 20 yrs ago. Is it worth it to go hunting up there now or should I look elsewhere....<span style="color: #FF0000">where is the game rich country now??? Is there any??
</span>
man...this wolf thing sucks. I came across these hunting pics in Idaho yesterday
http://www.quarterminutemagnums.com/a_hunting_we_will_go1_accurate_custom_hunting_rifles.asp
and planned on hunting up there till I saw the guys "barter/trade" page looking to trade custom guns for places to hunt where game isn't depleted. I'd give anything to hunt that kind of country and game. I wish I had gone 20 yrs ago. Is it worth it to go hunting up there now or should I look elsewhere....<span style="color: #FF0000">where is the game rich country now??? Is there any??
</span>
Re: wolves
Mr Langelius,
As far as the wolves being here first, that is not true. These were never native to Idaho. As far as your argument about them enchroaching on dense population of humans, at what point is that in your mind? What of these human's food source (the cattle these wolves are killing.) I see you are from the east on your posts. With all due respect, you should try seeing the situation from those of us that live with it every day, not just keep up with it through the media. I apologize if I have taken anything out of context, but it seems you give more support to the wolves that were transplanted far after I was born here. Thus we were here first
Mr Langelius,
As far as the wolves being here first, that is not true. These were never native to Idaho. As far as your argument about them enchroaching on dense population of humans, at what point is that in your mind? What of these human's food source (the cattle these wolves are killing.) I see you are from the east on your posts. With all due respect, you should try seeing the situation from those of us that live with it every day, not just keep up with it through the media. I apologize if I have taken anything out of context, but it seems you give more support to the wolves that were transplanted far after I was born here. Thus we were here first
Re: wolves
My post to the site posted above:
Congratulations to all the 2009 successful hunters, lets have a better season next year.
My post to the site posted above:
Congratulations to all the 2009 successful hunters, lets have a better season next year.
Re: wolves
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KClark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Timothy Treadwell lives!!
Sad, just sad ..... </div></div>
Yes, he turned into plant food!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KClark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Timothy Treadwell lives!!
Sad, just sad ..... </div></div>
Yes, he turned into plant food!
Re: wolves
i'm somewhat amused that the pro-wolf guys here will never have one in THEIR back yard. coincidence? i think not.
we had wolves before the feds planted the canadian wolves. they minded their Ps and Qs pretty well and stayed out of trouble. since the wolves were planted, things have gone south...
those guys thinking nature needs to run it's course should consider re-introducing Polio maybe?
the wolves were thinned out in the first place because they do not respond well to management practices, and like it or not, management is necessary.
i'm somewhat amused that the pro-wolf guys here will never have one in THEIR back yard. coincidence? i think not.
we had wolves before the feds planted the canadian wolves. they minded their Ps and Qs pretty well and stayed out of trouble. since the wolves were planted, things have gone south...
those guys thinking nature needs to run it's course should consider re-introducing Polio maybe?
the wolves were thinned out in the first place because they do not respond well to management practices, and like it or not, management is necessary.
Re: wolves
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Thunder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have seen first hand what they do to an elk heard. i found 21 kills two years ago in n idaho in a drainage i hunted and they where killing for fun i pic pic i just need to get them off my broken laptop </div></div>this ecosystem.
I see it many times every year. Wolves are ruining the ecosystem balance in N. Idaho.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Thunder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have seen first hand what they do to an elk heard. i found 21 kills two years ago in n idaho in a drainage i hunted and they where killing for fun i pic pic i just need to get them off my broken laptop </div></div>this ecosystem.
I see it many times every year. Wolves are ruining the ecosystem balance in N. Idaho.
Re: wolves
Look; I'm not interested in taking sides in a local dispute. I neither love nor hate wolves.
But even one of us clueless Easterners can find references to wolves being native to Idaho within but a few minutes. Indicating that wolves may not be native to Idaho is misleading at best. These wolves aren't, I'll grant that with no dispute, but there's more to the question than your statement suggests.
While there can be no doubt that the wolves being introduced are not the original species, demanding that only such a species would be acceptable is specious at best. Those native wolves were exterminated to extinction with the last one being killed in Yellowstone in 1926. So these wolves couldn't have been there first, but wolves were in Idaho before there was even an Idaho. The <span style="font-style: italic">re</span>-introduction of wolves in Idaho is, of necessity, being done with a non-original species. They behave differently, of course; the only wolves who could behave as the old ones might are now ghosts, thanks to folks who decided, apparently like yourself, that Idaho's unregulated deer and elk populations didn't need wolves and other canine predators to help ensure their health and reasonable numbers. This tends to be the argument of folks who provide guides services, related recreational resources, etc.
Also, apparently, there's money to be made hunting wolves. If my research is accurate, as much a $25,000 per wolf. Wonder if this has anything to do with your objections to my post.
You will note, I never even mentioned Idaho in my initial comments.
Encroachment by wild canines predators in neighborhoods is something we have rather a significant bit of here in the East, in my own neighborhood, in fact. It is the leading source of missing small pets in our area. Such encroachment includes coyotes, coy-dogs, and yes, wolves; in this case, Canadian. Some of the coyotes killed are as large as 75lb.
If wolves are causing starvation in your neighborhood, well, my heart goes out to you. However, I doubt this, and suspect you may be belaboring a talking point in a local political dispute. Incidentally, as of the writing of the Wiki article I cite above, substantiated losses to ranchers had been monetarily compensated in excess of $1,000,000. So, please spare us your political gripes.
My initial point centers aound the effects of meddling with ecological checks and balances. Wolves were deliberately and systematically exterminated in the continental USA. The process was driven mostly by fear, ignorance, and financial imperatives related to grazing economics. To say the ecological consequences were disturbing would be an understatement of biblical proportion. The natural balance was screwed over royally. Human methods to regain balance have been ludicrously inadequate. To do the mission of the artificially deleted wolf, you need something a whole lot like a wolf. Perhaps the ecological balance needs to take a back seat to anthropmorphic judgements about whether the less pretty aspects of the acts of natural predation meet with this or that individual's approval. Wolves don't care what we think, nor do they need to.
This response represents already more involvement than I wished to have in such disputes, and I strongly resent being drawn by name into your chosen hot button issue. I further resent the insinuation that being an Easterner, I have neither a clue, nor any right, to comment on the subject. Pardon me, Sir, but your regional bigotry is showing. Please do me the courtesy of leaving me out of any further verbal fencing you and others may wish to continue in this thread. I am clearly, deeply sorry I elected to make comment on this issue. It was a mistake I have no intention of repeating.
Greg
Look; I'm not interested in taking sides in a local dispute. I neither love nor hate wolves.
But even one of us clueless Easterners can find references to wolves being native to Idaho within but a few minutes. Indicating that wolves may not be native to Idaho is misleading at best. These wolves aren't, I'll grant that with no dispute, but there's more to the question than your statement suggests.
While there can be no doubt that the wolves being introduced are not the original species, demanding that only such a species would be acceptable is specious at best. Those native wolves were exterminated to extinction with the last one being killed in Yellowstone in 1926. So these wolves couldn't have been there first, but wolves were in Idaho before there was even an Idaho. The <span style="font-style: italic">re</span>-introduction of wolves in Idaho is, of necessity, being done with a non-original species. They behave differently, of course; the only wolves who could behave as the old ones might are now ghosts, thanks to folks who decided, apparently like yourself, that Idaho's unregulated deer and elk populations didn't need wolves and other canine predators to help ensure their health and reasonable numbers. This tends to be the argument of folks who provide guides services, related recreational resources, etc.
Also, apparently, there's money to be made hunting wolves. If my research is accurate, as much a $25,000 per wolf. Wonder if this has anything to do with your objections to my post.
You will note, I never even mentioned Idaho in my initial comments.
Encroachment by wild canines predators in neighborhoods is something we have rather a significant bit of here in the East, in my own neighborhood, in fact. It is the leading source of missing small pets in our area. Such encroachment includes coyotes, coy-dogs, and yes, wolves; in this case, Canadian. Some of the coyotes killed are as large as 75lb.
If wolves are causing starvation in your neighborhood, well, my heart goes out to you. However, I doubt this, and suspect you may be belaboring a talking point in a local political dispute. Incidentally, as of the writing of the Wiki article I cite above, substantiated losses to ranchers had been monetarily compensated in excess of $1,000,000. So, please spare us your political gripes.
My initial point centers aound the effects of meddling with ecological checks and balances. Wolves were deliberately and systematically exterminated in the continental USA. The process was driven mostly by fear, ignorance, and financial imperatives related to grazing economics. To say the ecological consequences were disturbing would be an understatement of biblical proportion. The natural balance was screwed over royally. Human methods to regain balance have been ludicrously inadequate. To do the mission of the artificially deleted wolf, you need something a whole lot like a wolf. Perhaps the ecological balance needs to take a back seat to anthropmorphic judgements about whether the less pretty aspects of the acts of natural predation meet with this or that individual's approval. Wolves don't care what we think, nor do they need to.
This response represents already more involvement than I wished to have in such disputes, and I strongly resent being drawn by name into your chosen hot button issue. I further resent the insinuation that being an Easterner, I have neither a clue, nor any right, to comment on the subject. Pardon me, Sir, but your regional bigotry is showing. Please do me the courtesy of leaving me out of any further verbal fencing you and others may wish to continue in this thread. I am clearly, deeply sorry I elected to make comment on this issue. It was a mistake I have no intention of repeating.
Greg
Re: wolves
There was a possible new world record wolf taken in Canada 230Lbs on one site 197 on the other, that big does it matter?
http://www.mikehanback.com/blog/index.cfm/2009/9/25/Photo-Biggest-Wolf-Ever
I wonder if this is the wolf they have put back in the U.S. if it is you will not have to worry about your small pets. You will have to worry about yourself. I have a 155lb (not fat) Chesapeake Bay Retriever this thing would go through him be like a fat kid on cake.
There was a possible new world record wolf taken in Canada 230Lbs on one site 197 on the other, that big does it matter?
http://www.mikehanback.com/blog/index.cfm/2009/9/25/Photo-Biggest-Wolf-Ever
I wonder if this is the wolf they have put back in the U.S. if it is you will not have to worry about your small pets. You will have to worry about yourself. I have a 155lb (not fat) Chesapeake Bay Retriever this thing would go through him be like a fat kid on cake.
Re: wolves
I did some searching on the net. Everything I could find reported populations for wolves are down this year.
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/idaho-wolf-population-declines/
Maybe the population of Elk and other wildlife will recover in a few years. Unfortunately it takes a while.
I did some searching on the net. Everything I could find reported populations for wolves are down this year.
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/idaho-wolf-population-declines/
Maybe the population of Elk and other wildlife will recover in a few years. Unfortunately it takes a while.
Re: wolves
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, apparently, there's money to be made hunting wolves. If my research is accurate, as much a $25,000 per wolf.
Greg </div></div>
I couldn't find any info on a bounty that big...only $150 for a while in Alaska. $25,000 is an astronimical amount for a wolf. I would be interested in knowing what state that was in ??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, apparently, there's money to be made hunting wolves. If my research is accurate, as much a $25,000 per wolf.
Greg </div></div>
I couldn't find any info on a bounty that big...only $150 for a while in Alaska. $25,000 is an astronimical amount for a wolf. I would be interested in knowing what state that was in ??
Re: wolves
I goofed. I rushed my research by doing some speedreading. I mistook a proposal for a fact.
The money in hunting isn't being earned by the hunters, though; it's going to guides, outfitters, etc. $25,0000 may not be the current going rate, but it takes no stretch of the imagnation to see it being asked, and paid, by some starry eyed earstwhile Nimrods. Some of the sums being shelled out by recreational 'hunters' are flatly obscene, IMHO.
Wolves beware, your day is coming, too...
Don't get me wrong, I don't care whether wolves are introduced, re-introduced, pampered, harassed, tortured, or hunted to extinction (again). I mind being called to task for something I never said, about a place I never mentioned, by someone I never addressed word one to, who chooses to single me out by name to be the windmill he wants to play his Internet Don Qixote to.
Sometimes I suspect that my true primary role here at SH is in being the site's designated nut magnet.
Greg
I goofed. I rushed my research by doing some speedreading. I mistook a proposal for a fact.
The money in hunting isn't being earned by the hunters, though; it's going to guides, outfitters, etc. $25,0000 may not be the current going rate, but it takes no stretch of the imagnation to see it being asked, and paid, by some starry eyed earstwhile Nimrods. Some of the sums being shelled out by recreational 'hunters' are flatly obscene, IMHO.
Wolves beware, your day is coming, too...
Don't get me wrong, I don't care whether wolves are introduced, re-introduced, pampered, harassed, tortured, or hunted to extinction (again). I mind being called to task for something I never said, about a place I never mentioned, by someone I never addressed word one to, who chooses to single me out by name to be the windmill he wants to play his Internet Don Qixote to.
Sometimes I suspect that my true primary role here at SH is in being the site's designated nut magnet.
Greg
Re: wolves
Greg,
I was trying to be respectful in my dissagreements with your stance on wolves. You do not live with them like we do, as I am sure you agree. Just like I do not understand the steel industry or a number of your regional issues. As for $25k for a wolf? The state of Idaho earns about $20k for an out of stater to come here and take an elk. If a wolf kills 100 elk in its lifetime (by some literature) you can see the economic discrepency. Wolves are bad for the Northwest economically and ecologically.
Mike
Greg,
I was trying to be respectful in my dissagreements with your stance on wolves. You do not live with them like we do, as I am sure you agree. Just like I do not understand the steel industry or a number of your regional issues. As for $25k for a wolf? The state of Idaho earns about $20k for an out of stater to come here and take an elk. If a wolf kills 100 elk in its lifetime (by some literature) you can see the economic discrepency. Wolves are bad for the Northwest economically and ecologically.
Mike
Re: wolves
I don't really see us as ideologically conflicted. As you say, it's not my problem. My only beef here is what I originally said. People don't do well when they try to override nature's particular local balance. Extermination and re-introduction are both the sorts of meddling I can't support.
Greg
I don't really see us as ideologically conflicted. As you say, it's not my problem. My only beef here is what I originally said. People don't do well when they try to override nature's particular local balance. Extermination and re-introduction are both the sorts of meddling I can't support.
Greg
Re: wolves
Greg i understand your point of view, but humans tend to override nature's balace quite often... all i'm sayin is we could eliminate 90% of these elk killers and not put anything out of balance, the elk herd in yellowstone is on a steep decline, and i'm sure elk hunters bring in more revenue than pack of wolves, and in turn balance the elk pop. as well as a wolf pack.
Greg i understand your point of view, but humans tend to override nature's balace quite often... all i'm sayin is we could eliminate 90% of these elk killers and not put anything out of balance, the elk herd in yellowstone is on a steep decline, and i'm sure elk hunters bring in more revenue than pack of wolves, and in turn balance the elk pop. as well as a wolf pack.
Re: wolves
Greg,
I see your point. In this case it was the feds that were messing with nature. They don't do a very good job from Washington trying to figure out how our ecological system works here. They tend to think with their pocketbooks rather than the good of the people .... I digress. That is for another discussion
Greg,
I see your point. In this case it was the feds that were messing with nature. They don't do a very good job from Washington trying to figure out how our ecological system works here. They tend to think with their pocketbooks rather than the good of the people .... I digress. That is for another discussion
