Sidearms & Scatterguns Woods Defense Gun

[treillw]

I'm looking to get a 10mm to carry around the mountains for protection from 2 and 4 legged critters.

Here are some of my criteria:
* Needs a weapon light mount and night sights
* high capacity is preferred
* must handle the hottest 10mm loads
* must be reliable after being in the woods for 18 hours hiking through trees, snow, and dirt in temps down to below zero
* needs a good trigger - I'm a trigger snob

Guns I've looked at and considered:
* Glock 20 - top contender
* Double stack 1911 - not many made
*STI 2011 - possible contender
*Rock Island - eliminated, just not crazy about them
* Glock 40 - probably don't want due to length
* Single stack 1911 - eliminated due to low capacity
* I already own a revolver that fits the bill for woods defense

Glock 20:
Probably my number one choice at the moment. I would have some custom work done to it:
* KKM barrel
* Trigger - considering Zev, Apex, or a smith polishing the stock one and replacing a part or two
* probably grip reduction to make it similar to a 1911 and more compliant with my wife's tiny hands
* RMR Cut - I'd like the option of being able to use it, but might not always have it on the gun
* Considering TMT Tactical, Zev doing the lower and finding somebody to do the upper
* Considering a comp, since my Surefire x400 light will likely stick out past the end of the barrel anyway.
* Considering slide lightening - don't want any cuttouts though due to debris getting in the gun

Glock 20 Questions:
* Who would you hire to do this work? Any thoughts on TMT Tactical?
* Does lightening the slide on a 10mm make the gun recoil less or more? I've heard conflicting statements about this.

STI Nitro 10:
I had eliminated this option just because I wasn't too impressed with the one I saw in a local store, but I just noticed a bunch of you praising STI in a different post. I really wasn't impressed with the STI I saw for a $2000 gun. The magazine wouldn't release - you had to push the button down and forcefully rip the mag out of the gun. The slidelock was so touchy, which might be because the gun is really setup for competition - I brushed against the thing and the slide slammed shut. Other times I had to put a decent amount of force onto the lever to get it to close. It didn't seem consistent. I have never seen a slidelock close so easily in all my life, which I guess isn't a terrible thing, but something just felt off about this one being inconsistent and unpredictable. Lastly, I wasn't terribly impressed on the gun's trigger for a $2000 gun. Did I just find a lemon of an STI, or are some of these things common? I really wanted to like the gun, because I hate glock triggers. I'm pretty certain the glock will be more reliable though.

Any other constructive thoughts are appreciated!
Thanks!

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you want solid, built like a rock, very reliable and setup for the hottest 10mm loads, look at the SIG P220 Elite (DA/SA)
It has a single stack mag, but if 8 rounds hasn't eliminated the critter, a quick mag change won't hurt you much as you best be moving.
If you are shooting max energy loads such as the Underwood stuff, the SIG P220 Elite feels a world away from the glocks and standard 1911 pistols.

The STI Perfect 10 is excellent if you want high capacity, but it's expensive, a long wait & it is a pretty large beast of a gun.
Shoots really nicely however and you can have a really crisp trigger.

Otherwise for cheap, it's hard to beat one of the long slide Glock models, I'd suggest the long slide one as it will give you a bit extra energy.

If it's protection in the woods from 4 legged critters, most likely what matters is going to be fast and smooth draw and out front quickly at close ambush range. You most likely won't be having time to worry about your red dot, laser etc.

One other option you might consider if you want something for someone with smaller hands is a well built pistol with the .357 Sig barrel. Run the hottest Underwood loads it it's got a lot more punch than you would guess.

One other option is running .45 super, which can be run in just about any platform you want with weapon adjustments. Running the Underwood max loads for .45 super actually edges out the 10mm in penetration on harder animals. (If you have a HK Mark 23 or original USP 45 Tactical just go ahead and shoot it).

 

[deltawiskey]

I just went through a similar decision process and ended up with a Glock 40 with an RMR.
I decided on the Glock because of its ease of field stripping and low maintenance needs being that it will be a woods gun. I went with the long slide so it will meet the legal length requirements in my state should I choose to hunt with it. My plan was to send it off to TMT tactical right after I got it, but so far I have decided it isn't necessary. It just plain works good!
DW

 

[fdkay]

Easy answer:
https://eaacorp.com/guns/handguns/witness-steel-full-size-tanfoglio-52

They make a polymer one as well:
https://eaacorp.com/guns/handguns/witness-polymer-full-size-tanfoglio-59

Friends don't let friends buy Glocks.
I don't think I would lighten the slide on a 10mm semi auto.
It is already pushing the platform, it is a high pressure, high velocity round generating high slide velocity. You would need a heavier recoil spring to compensate, which in turn makes racking the slide more difficult.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

* Does lightening the slide on a 10mm make the gun recoil less or more? I've heard conflicting statements about this.

It will make it snappier. Most people will interpret that as more recoil. It's usually done to make a gun cycle quicker and the sights settle quicker which isn't really important for your application. It's also accompanied by spring and load tuning, not stuff I'd want to do on a high powered defense gun.

 

[powdahound76]

G20. Do the frame reduction yourself. Its easy.

I did a G21 and turned it into a 460 Rowland. Stippled it up for improved grip in crap conditions.
I just ordered the barrel with a custom chamber and threaded, then a steel guide rod and heavy spring and a comp. Runs great. Not hard to dump a full mag into 8” really fast.
Probably would go to 10mm doing it all over again. Easier to find practice ammo.

 

[quietmike]

Look at Johnny Glock triggers. Put one in my 34 and it's the best glock trigger I've ever tried

 

[jmb1911]

I have also gone down a very similar road, considering which 10mm to go with, and ended up not buying anything new.

With 45 Super being what it is ballistically and owning a couple 45 ACP pistols, I decided to opt for a threaded barrel in my Gen 3 G21 along with a more robust spring an guiderod setup instead of adding another caliber and pistol to the mix.

Just a thought.

 

[treillw]

I just went through a similar decision process and ended up with a Glock 40 with an RMR.
I decided on the Glock because of its ease of field stripping and low maintenance needs being that it will be a woods gun. I went with the long slide so it will meet the legal length requirements in my state should I choose to hunt with it. My plan was to send it off to TMT tactical right after I got it, but so far I have decided it isn't necessary. It just plain works good!
DW

I don't know much about TMT. Do they have a reputation for doing good work? I haven't found a whole lot about them reading around online.

 

[treillw]

I have also gone down a very similar road, considering which 10mm to go with, and ended up not buying anything new.

With 45 Super being what it is ballistically and owning a couple 45 ACP pistols, I decided to opt for a threaded barrel in my Gen 3 G21 along with a more robust spring an guiderod setup instead of adding another caliber and pistol to the mix.

Just a thought.

I thought about the 45 super as well. I would want it in a double stack 1911 platform. There aren't too many double stack 1911s out there.

 

[treillw]

Easy answer:
https://eaacorp.com/guns/handguns/witness-steel-full-size-tanfoglio-52

They make a polymer one as well:
https://eaacorp.com/guns/handguns/witness-polymer-full-size-tanfoglio-59

Friends don't let friends buy Glocks.
I don't think I would lighten the slide on a 10mm semi auto.
It is already pushing the platform, it is a high pressure, high velocity round generating high slide velocity. You would need a heavier recoil spring to compensate, which in turn makes racking the slide more difficult.

I saw these and looked at them a little bit. I would really like to see one in person. They don't seem to be around anywhere. Are they quality guns?

 

[treillw]

It will make it snappier. Most people will interpret that as more recoil. It's usually done to make a gun cycle quicker and the sights settle quicker which isn't really important for your application. It's also accompanied by spring and load tuning, not stuff I'd want to do on a high powered defense gun.

Fast follow up shots are very important to me That later part of your statement doesn't sound the best though.

 

[XLR308]

I was trying to make the same decision a couple of years ago and ultimately ended up going a different direction.
I had the luxury of being able to shoot my brothers Glock 10mm a few times before deciding.
I ended up buying a Glock 21SF in 45acp and plan on buying a 460 Rowland kit in the near future.
More power if needed than a 10mm but the ability to shoot readily available 45acp ammo.
Having a 13 round magazine full of that sort of stopping power was very attractive as well.

 

[natdscott]

If you are going places where you expect to have use for a pistol, then you NEED a rifle.

Why don't you just get a Ruger .44 Carbine, put a holographic on top, and feel better about life with 5 rounds of .44 Magnum ready-to-go ins something accurate enough to place them all quickly. They are only probably 2-3 MOA guns, but at 20 yards, that's a helluva a lot of "stay right there".

At 6 lbs, yes, it is heavier than a pistol, but I think the pros still outweigh the cons since it is more-or-less a 10/22.

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you are going places where you expect to have use for a pistol, then you NEED a rifle.
Why don't you just get a Ruger .44 Carbine, put a holographic on top, and feel better about life with 5 rounds of .44 Magnum ready-to-go ins something accurate enough to place them all quickly. They are only probably 2-3 MOA guns, but at 20 yards, that's a helluva a lot of "stay right there".
At 6 lbs, yes, it is heavier than a pistol, but I think the pros still outweigh the cons since it is more-or-less a 10/22.

If you were going to carry the .44 Carbine, you could just carry a Super Redhawk with one of the 9 inch barrels and either a scope or holographic sight on the top and have about all the same firepower.

 

[Fig]

The only pistol that would give me confidence against a brown bear is a S&W .500M. Otherwise I'm .45-70 or .444P lever. "That's too much gun", said no one facing a bear charge ever.

 

[jbuck88]

I like the sig option myself as well, but I carry a S&W 686+ or 69 depending on where I am going. I live in the PNW so it's either cougar or 2 legged animals I worry about.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Lately my favorite outdoors pistol has become my Glock 22 with a 6-inch KKM barrel in 357 Sig. S&B 140gr FMJ-FP clock 1380 fps.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Rides nice in a Serpa paddle holster, only the extra barrel sticks out the bottom, the front sight is protected in the holster. 357 Sig feeds like the proverbial 'fat kid at a buffet'.

 

[Fig]

It does. I have a first issue 229. In thousands of rounds never a hiccup (better than my blocks).

 

[treillw]

If you are going places where you expect to have use for a pistol, then you NEED a rifle.

I would conversely say that anywhere you go that you feel you need a rifle to defend yourself, you should also have a pistol backup.

 

[natdscott]

If you were going to carry the .44 Carbine, you could just carry a Super Redhawk with one of the 9 inch barrels and either a scope or holographic sight on the top and have about all the same firepower.

It's not about firepower alone, it's about CONTROLLING the firepower, and doing so QUICKLY.

Incidentally, it loads like a shotgun under the action, with a port like a lever. In other words, except for very practiced people, if you stock pack some .44, you can probably shuck shells into the gun well faster than reload a revolver.

 

[jbuck88]

Since we are off the rails already why not a shockwave? Slung up with some 00buck and slugs.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The only pistol that would give me confidence against a brown bear is a S&W .500M. Otherwise I'm .45-70 or .444P lever. "That's too much gun", said no one facing a bear charge ever.

The .50AE out of a 10" barrel and a hot load will most likely also convince the beast that it's not nice to chase you, and you'll be able to get off follow up shots quicker.

 

[HoustonB77]

Not at all what you are looking for but I carry a 4 inch 686 in the woods. I haven't fpond anything in the south Texas woods that a hot loaded 158 grain XTP couldn't handle.

 

[jmb1911]

I thought about the 45 super as well. I would want it in a double stack 1911 platform. There aren't too many double stack 1911s out there.

Why would you only consider a 45 Super out of a 1911? Just curious.

 

[natdscott]

Not at all what you are looking for but I carry a 4 inch 686 in the woods. I haven't fpond anything in the south Texas woods that a hot loaded 158 grain XTP couldn't handle.

I don't know where he is, but you probably don't have Kodiak or Brown bears in your territory..

 

[treillw]

Why would you only consider a 45 Super out of a 1911? Just curious.

I have, just like the extra capacity you get with the double stack 1911.

The grip on the G21 is even bigger than the G20.

 

[jmb1911]

I have, just like the extra capacity you get with the double stack 1911.

The grip on the G21 is even bigger than the G20.

That makes sense.

 

[fdkay]

I saw these and looked at them a little bit. I would really like to see one in person. They don't seem to be around anywhere. Are they quality guns?

The Tanfoglio manufactured guns are very good.

 

[treillw]

The 460 Rowland is pretty attractive. Can it really be loaded to get up to 44 mag levels, or is that just an advertisement.

I've heard people say that you can't really get a 10mm up to a 41 mag level.

Any thoughts on the FNX 45 with plans on conversion to 460 Rowland? I don't know much about the FNX guns. Any good aftermarket trigger parts for them out there?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't know much about the FNX guns. Any good aftermarket trigger parts for them out there?

No. I've owned one a few years and occasionally look for parts. There is no aftermarket at all.

 

[treillw]

No. I've owned one a few years and occasionally look for parts. There is no aftermarket at all.

How do you like the gun overall?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

How do you like the gun overall?

For its intended role it is a good gun. At the time (4+ years ago) it was the only option I saw for a high capacity 45 with ambi controls. It's been reliable with everything except the russian junk ammo, I've had it in my lunchbox at work everyday since I bought it and managed to kill several dozen raccoons, a skunk, 20+ opposums and a few groundhogs with it, even had to use it as a back-up gun in a match once. Accuracy is good considering the type of gun it is.
It is not however a match gun or a fun gun to tinker with given it's lack of aftermarket parts.

 

[WATERWALKER]

Glock 20 SF (Gen 4 w/ double recoil spring) w/ an aftermarket trigger, or a big ass revolver like a S&W 500 or a 454 Casull. Magnum Research also offers the 45-70 in the BFR.

If this is going to be an emergency use type of deal I wouldn’t bother w/ a RDS. As someone else mentioned, you probably won’t have time to use it. I’d get a quality set of steel night sights, aftermarket trigger (or tune existing trigger), possibly stipple the frame of a Glock & be done w/ it.

Glocks, in my opinion are utterly reliable. Don’t mess w/ perfection too much. Also, this damn thing will be as rugged as they come.

 

[EdO]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5IfVG6ao7

 

[Derek200]

If you are set on a pistol get the Glock. If you want to improve the trigger get a trigger from Charlie Vanek. I have bought two of his and one from zev.

I’d get a 458 Socom though as an ar pistol!!

 

[Mooncake]

I carry a HK45 loaded with Buffalo Bore 45 Super outdoorsman. I only have cats and black bears to contend with, tho. If I was in griz country I'd have a 12ga full of slugs.

 

[SLG]

There are some solid suggestions in this thread, but not all pistols are equally built. Not all are equally reliable. Everyone knows this, but then they seem to forget it too. There are some workable choices here, but the best pistol choice if you don't want your revolvers, is the HK 45's. More reliable and more accurate than the other options, especially when we are talking about heavy ammo. I prefer the USP, but I think the HK45 is worth looking at as well.

That is, unless you like gambling and tinkering. Which is fine too, as most heavy loaded woods guns are for the owner, and not the quarry.

With all that in mind, a good 9mm that you already have, and can actually hit with, is never a bad choice. Now if you are great with a heavy gun, then never mind.