Worst Value Optic?

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Schmidt & Bender and NF ATACR definitely have to be the most over priced scopes.

S&B pricing doubled a few years back for no apparent reason and unless they out perform ZCO and TT they don't warrant the price tag.

Nightforce has such a loyal fan base they can sell scopes for any price they like. Their pricing varies a lot around the world and only seems to be based on what the fanboys are willing to pay for the NF logo.

Leupold MK5 has to be pretty close to bad value with the upcharge for illumination.

There are a bunch of other copy/paste scopes by the likes of Riton, Maven, Blackhound etc that seem to offer very little value but they belong in a different discussion.

The secret to s&b is buy them on the downswing. Getting a like new pm2 with a good reticle and turrets for 2-2.2k is doable if you can wait. Still one hell of an optic considering it was designed over 20 years ago and can still hang with the best out there. Minox is another one that can be had at a great price point on the used market and is probally only second to TT in glass quality.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I hit the mile just fine with my gen 3 and I’m sure someone with an even cheaper scope can do the same.

These are the jerks of the world. Gtf with this poor people shit. I bet you live with your parents rent free.

Oh wow you hit a KD target in probally great conditions with what is almost considered an alpha optic ( gen 3 razor punches way way way above its price, it is the exception not the rule).

Not impressing anyone who does this regularly. Maybe on YouTube or reddit.

Now do it with a xtr 2 or chicom special in heavy mirrage and get back to us.

 

[captain_toad]

Schmidt & Bender and NF ATACR definitely have to be the most over priced scopes.

S&B pricing doubled a few years back for no apparent reason and unless they out perform ZCO and TT they don't warrant the price tag.

Nightforce has such a loyal fan base they can sell scopes for any price they like. Their pricing varies a lot around the world and only seems to be based on what the fanboys are willing to pay for the NF logo.

Leupold MK5 has to be pretty close to bad value with the upcharge for illumination.

There are a bunch of other copy/paste scopes by the likes of Riton, Maven, Blackhound etc that seem to offer very little value but they belong in a different discussion.

Correct answer. Kahles also lives with Leupold on that second tier of bad value.

 

[Qbanmissilecrissis]

Oh wow you hit a KD target in probally great conditions with what is almost considered an alpha optic ( gen 3 razor punches way way way above its price, it is the exception not the rule).

Not impressing anyone who does this regularly. Maybe on YouTube or reddit.

Now do it with a xtr 2 or chicom special in heavy mirrage and get back to us.

I’m not disagreeing with the fact that there is better optics out there. I’m disagreeing with your poor choice of words.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Oh wow you hit a KD target in probally great conditions with what is almost considered an alpha optic ( gen 3 razor punches way way way above its price, it is the exception not the rule).

Not impressing anyone who does this regularly. Maybe on YouTube or reddit.

Now do it with a xtr 2 or chicom special in heavy mirrage and get back to us.

I've gone to a mile with an XTRII.

I've gone to a mile with a fixed leupold 10x. Gone beyond 2 miles (shooting tank hulks) with a leupold 4.5-14x.

I think there have been several people here try to make the point (which you keep attacking), that you don't need a $4000 optic to do anything your rifle is capable of. Sure hiking around in the mountains in a pair of $600 boots gives you an advantage, but those trails you're walking around on were established by people wearing nothing, or maybe a double layering of deer hide stuffed with grass or something similar.

 

[diggler1833]

/THREAD DRIFT ON

It is more interesting to me who doesn’t choose these so-called “alpha class optics” than who does.

/THREAD DRIFT OFF

-Stan

Good question really.

I don't. It's just because I don't have to make a living with my choice. Sometimes "guud enuf" is good enough.

Typically I'll shoot off the side of my house/porch, so 385 is the max there...or I can stretch it to 750 pretty easily if I go down to a pasture (900 if I REALLY try). My range sessions consist of 3-10 rounds just to practice wind calls and give me something to do for ~30 minutes. Bonus that I get to do them several times per week. I may shoot 25-30 rounds from the shop if I'm doing load development.

My self-imposed hunting limit is 400 yards. Most of that is because in the winter it is extremely difficult to read wind across a field of 2" dead grass and no trees. At 400 under field conditions and wind 10 or less, I have full confidence that I can hit a 1.5 MOA target cold bore/cold shooter. That's with reading wind through the scope and on my face, and not waving a Kestrel around...deer and coyotes don't seem to care for that too much for some reason. ~$1K glass let's me see into shadows longer than I can with my failing eyes too.

For many years the $1K class of scopes got what I needed done. I always tried to (still do) buy glass that was getting discontinued, so I've always been 3-4 years behind everyone else. However, I usually managed to get the $1,500 class of optics for the $1K price tag. Lately, my eyesight deterioration has me looking into the $2K class of optics though.

Bonus in keeping in line with this thread topic - I'm usually disappointed less when I've paid less for a particular model .

If sponsorships, prize money, and the investment required for competition were on the line, I'd have a completely different perspective.

 

[b2lee]

You guys act like 1 mile is a hard and nearly impossible shot.

All this talk about glass....once you reach a certain tier...it's all great glass....we can argue over the coatings giving us a color hue that is pleasing to OUR eyes and works for US. The important thing is....pick the reticle that YOU can sit behind for hours and know how to use it to the fullest. Pick a scope with turrets that are pleasing to YOUR hands.

I picked the ZCO with the IMPCT 3x reticle because to me it is perfect for what I want. I like the short fat turrets because it is pleasing to MY hands. I like the eyebox because it is pleasing to MY eyes.

So...to answer the original question. Any scope that you have to learn to live with...that you have to over look one thing or another...any scope that fails to do what you need it to do....when you need it.....is the worst value. Any scope that you are afraid to paint because it will hurt the resale value....is a bad investment for you...because you are already looking for something better.

 

[spife7980]

Worst value? Zco for me. Shot a two day trying to sell myself on buying one for all the hype and it was the biggest turd. I can’t believe they sell for more than a grand and the fact that you have to buy a mount that’s basically only good for it just makes it that much worse.

 

[918v]

Worst value? Zco for me. Shot a two day trying to sell myself on buying one for all the hype and it was the biggest turd. I can’t believe they sell for more than a grand and the fact that you have to buy a mount that’s basically only good for it just makes it that much worse.

What specifically annoyed you?

 

[just browsing]

Jfc. Post less, shoot more. Don’t worry about what some internet nerds say about your shit.

 

[spife7980]

What specifically annoyed you?

I couldn’t discern a 10” plate at 4-500 yards on an overcast day when I could see it with my naked eye. I could see the dark green tpost floating above and below so I got my hits but the plate itself was invisible. Maybe a zco only comes to life with super bright heavy mirage but on an otherwise perfect day I thought it was kinda bullshit. (I was borrowing a jersey zco shooters optic so it shouldn’t have been a fluke)

 

[Covertnoob5]

I couldn’t discern a 10” plate at 4-500 yards on an overcast day when I could see it with my naked eye. I could see the dark green tpost floating above and below so I got my hits but the plate itself was invisible. Maybe a zco only comes to life with super heavy mirage but on an otherwise perfect day I thought it was kinda bullshit. (I was borrowing a jersey zco shooters optic so it shouldn’t have been a fluke)

Guaranteed you didn’t set it up right. Makes a big difference. This is the problem. People try to be an optics guy when they aren’t. You don’t know what you don’t know.

 

[918v]

I couldn’t discern a 10” plate at 4-500 yards on an overcast day when I could see it with my naked eye. I could see the dark green tpost floating above and below so I got my hits but the plate itself was invisible. Maybe a zco only comes to life with super bright heavy mirage but on an otherwise perfect day I thought it was kinda bullshit. (I was borrowing a jersey zco shooters optic so it shouldn’t have been a fluke)

I knew there was something about that zco, just knew it.

 

[918v]

Guaranteed you didn’t set it up right. Makes a big difference. This is the problem. People try to be an optics guy when they aren’t. You don’t know what you don’t know.

What in the set up would cause something like that?

 

[Covertnoob5]

As far as from a pure objective stand point, the worst “values” are probably IOR, USO, and some other more specialized scopes S&B 5-45, Leupold MK8, sig tango 6 etc. Resale on those is terrible and just not worth even attempting to buy unless you really really want them for some reason.
Not gonna get into obvious non relevant scopes like quigley ford etc.

What in the set up would cause something like that?

Go turn the diopter on any scope to one extreme end and tell me what you can see. Do it on your binos too. Makes all the difference in the world. Not to mention if the diopter setting isn’t right parallax knob can do weird things to the image as well. This is with any scope not just ZCO exclusive.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

As far as from a pure objective stand point, the worst “values” are probably IOR, USO, and some other more specialized scopes S&B 5-45, Leupold MK8, sig tango 6 etc. Resale on those is terrible and just not worth even attempting to buy unless you really really want them for some reason.
Not gonna get into obvious non relevant scopes like quigley ford etc.

Go turn the diopter on any scope to one extreme end and tell me what you can see. Do it on your binos too. Makes all the difference in the world. Not to mention if the diopter setting isn’t right parallax knob can do weird things to the image as well. This is with any scope not just ZCO exclusive.

I've got two of the sig tango 6 scopes in the 3-18×44 with the 35mm tubes with the built in level indicators. Bought them both used for somewhere around $800. They are spectacular hunting optics. Short and light, and I dare you to take $800 and buy a better used optic. The glass is pretty darn good, and I've owned about everything there is shy of the TT, ZCO or Minox.

 

[Covertnoob5]

I've got two of the sig tango 6 scopes in the 3-18×44 with the 35mm tubes with the built in level indicators. Bought them both used for somewhere around $800. They are spectacular hunting optics. Short and light, and I dare you to take $800 and buy a better used optic. The glass is pretty darn good, and I've owned about everything there is shy of the TT, ZCO or Minox.

I had a tango 6 5-30 Dev-L levelplex (that part was really cool) and that shit was so bad I didn’t even bother to do a review on it. When you unlock the turret it wiggled so bad it seemed like it could fall off. CA was atrocious, parallax was way pickier than I wanted to deal with. Contacted sig and they said “within spec” since it’s a locking turret.
To be fair its been a long long time since I’ve owned an $800 scope so maybe at that price it’s a decent value, but when they came out and the 5-30 was over $1500 close to $2k if I remember right, I wouldn’t touch it with your dick.

When I mentioned those scopes in my “worst value” I’m talking prices new. What you can get something for used doesn’t count cause sometimes crazy used deals pop up (I got a TT 315M on Scout years ago for $2400!!!!!) and sometimes they don’t but there’s no way to say that stuff will happen with regularity.

 

[918v]

As far as from a pure objective stand point, the worst “values” are probably IOR, USO, and some other more specialized scopes S&B 5-45, Leupold MK8, sig tango 6 etc. Resale on those is terrible and just not worth even attempting to buy unless you really really want them for some reason.
Not gonna get into obvious non relevant scopes like quigley ford etc.

Go turn the diopter on any scope to one extreme end and tell me what you can see. Do it on your binos too. Makes all the difference in the world. Not to mention if the diopter setting isn’t right parallax knob can do weird things to the image as well. This is with any scope not just ZCO exclusive.

Let’s see if Mr. Spife did that.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

This is why you can't have intelligent debate on the internet. People running their face about optics who don't even know how to set a diopter or even understand the basics of how these things work.

 

[spife7980]

Let’s see if Mr. Spife did that.

Nope. I completely fucking forgot to change a single thing on the scope to suit me over two days. I even forgot it had a turret to dial elevation. I’m such an idiot right?

 

[918v]

Nope. I completely fucking forgot to change a single thing on the scope to suit me over two days. I even forgot it had a turret to dial elevation. I’m such an idiot right?

Mr. Optics Guy certainly thinks so.

 

[jbell]

I am just here for the pissing match, it’s about what I expected with the title of the thread.

But to throw my .02 in, I have owned and can afford anything out there. But after owning so many examples of almost all of the modern super scopes and most of the mid tier scopes I can honestly say I have yet to find a scope that doesn’t have something I would change. Point is none are perfect, at least for me. So my answer to the question the OP asked is any scope that I have to pay retail for, less the XTRIII 5.5-30 non-illuminated. That scope is a pretty damn good $1000 or $1100 scope & even better off the used market.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Nope. I completely fucking forgot to change a single thing on the scope to suit me over two days. I even forgot it had a turret to dial elevation. I’m such an idiot right?

And that’s why you couldn’t see shit. Next.

 

[spife7980]

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

A better thread would be scopes that punch way above their cost.

LRHS/LRTS/2
XTR 3
Gen 3 Razor
Minox ZP5 (at used prices)
ZCO at current prices (3K used)

 

[Covertnoob5]

Mr. Optics Guy certainly thinks so.

Some of us are actually educated in optics and have gone out of our way to try to learn in the inner workings of a scope. Hence why I stated a review channel. I didn’t just pull these terms and knowledge out of my ass. So I’ll take optics guy and a compliment.

 

[918v]

Some of us are actually educated in optics and have gone out of our way to try to learn in the inner workings of a scope. Hence why I stated a review channel. I didn’t just pull these terms and knowledge out of my ass. So I’ll take optics guy and a compliment.

 

[Covertnoob5]

What money thing?

 

[918v]

What money thing?

I was in the middle of writing something else and it inserted your quote in there by accident.

But the money thing, the value, in an optic is not so much the performance per dollar but the joy in recreation.

For example, after spending several grand you discover that all these people’s opinions were bs and there is something you don’t like about the scope and now you have to sell it because it’s driving you crazy and now you lose a third of what you paid. OR the scope is broken right out of the box because the QC sucks. OR the scope requires a complicated adjustment process just to get it to work for you.

WHEREAS, another scope doesn’t cause any problems but costs another couple grand. But no headaches.

What to do? You’re going to end up with that $7000 scope eventually, either all at once or incrementally.

 

[Covertnoob5]

I was in the middle of writing something else and it inserted your quote in there by accident.

But the money thing, the value, in an optic is not so much the performance per dollar but the joy in recreation.

For example, after spending several grand you discover that all these people’s opinions were bs and there is something you don’t like about the scope and now you have to sell it because it’s driving you crazy and now you lose a third of what you paid. OR the scope is broken right out of the box because the QC sucks. OR the scope requires a complicated adjustment process just to get it to work for you.

WHEREAS, another scope doesn’t cause any problems but costs another couple grand. But no headaches.

What to do? You’re going to end up with that $7000 scope eventually, either all at once or incrementally.

This is true. I’ve spent more in this game than I’d care to imagine. Hence why I started a YouTube channel. Hopefully to help people save money and see where value lies and what the options are. There’s a-lot of scopes on paper I want to love but in use I can’t. The tango 6 was a perfect example. The levelplex idea was great and well executed. Rest of the scope for the money wasn’t good enough to keep it. I’m struggling with that same spot with my Revic PMR. Glass is meh, reticle it’s too cluttered, turret feel sucks, but the ballistics work and are really well done.

 

[Secant]

 

[stanley_white]

What optic (for you) is just NOT worth the money?

For me it is the Kahles. I am left handed and I really would prefer the parallax on the elevation turret but for $3,500+ I just can not reationalize that purchase.

I am running the Cronus BTR Gen2 4.5-29 I can't see spending more than double the price of that scope for the roughly the same glass (granted the Cronus punches way above it's price) and a few other small features like a rev indicator.

Anyway I am just curious what is the optic you think does not warrant the price tag?!?

For me, they were all worth the money, as they helped me on my journey to find out what truly works for my needs and preferences, as no amount of internet opinions or modeling the behavior of gamers substitutes for personal experience and growth.

-Stan

 

[Ronws]

this was his video where I lost respect for him. Arken buys more Youtubbers than Vortex does these days.

Same here. Granted, I don't have a problem with cheap scopes performing well. But Night Force has been around the block a few times.

 

[Gohring65]

A lot of guys that get into these scope opinion threads, don’t really want your opinion, they want you to have their same opinion. I don’t like your favorite scope! Well fuck you! You don’t know how to use it! Lmao.

 

[b6graham]

A lot of guys that get into these scope opinion threads, don’t really want your opinion, they want you to have their same opinion. I don’t like your favorite scope! Well fuck you! You don’t know how to I use it! Lmao.

dude. adjust your diopter. you might hit the target of this thread a little better.

oh wait...this isn't the Pit.

nvm. nuthuggers and 'optical experts' with their youtube reviews are not biased or opiniated at all.

 

[FNG1001]

What optic (for you) is just NOT worth the money?

For me it is the Kahles. I am left handed and I really would prefer the parallax on the elevation turret but for $3,500+ I just can not reationalize that purchase.

I am running the Cronus BTR Gen2 4.5-29 I can't see spending more than double the price of that scope for the roughly the same glass (granted the Cronus punches way above it's price) and a few other small features like a rev indicator.

Anyway I am just curious what is the optic you think does not warrant the price tag?!?

Anything without:
lifetime guarantee, no questions asks, attached to the product (not the owner)
is a bad value optic.

0.02c

 

[nrspence]

I don't get it.

I have never heard anyone say Athlon was anything but an amazing optic, esp for the price. What don't u like?

Athlon = China

 

[Milf Dots]

Athlon = China

The Cronus is made in Japan, but everything else Athlon makes is China.

 

[Schütze]

I own and use four of the scope models mentioned here for mainly shooting out to 800 and up. My ZCO has the best glass of all of them, confirmed by other shooting friend’s. So of course spife‘s statement is not understandable to me, my experience is on the opposite side.
The only thing I’m learning here is to not ever take any scope “review” to seriously with the exception of Big Jim Fish and Dark Lord Of Optics.

 

[nrspence]

I would say the worst value optic is one that is not reliable regardless of price point. I’ve seen a few vortex razor lht’s have to get sent back for broken turrets, unreliable return to zero, and visible black flakes in the field of view. I didn’t expect that out of a vortex razor.

 

[KevinWood44]

Uh…..I have a Kahles 525 and the parallax is on the elevation turret.

I think you misread my thread, that is the feature I LIKE about the Kahles, its the rest of it that does not impress me

 

[KevinWood44]

I am just here for the pissing match, it’s about what I expected with the title of the thread.

I had good intentions....but now I have my popcorn out =)

The Cronus is made in Japan, but everything else Athlon makes is China.

Yep

 

[918v]

I own and use four of the scope models mentioned here for mainly shooting out to 800 and up. My ZCO has the best glass of all of them, confirmed by other shooting friend’s. So of course spife‘s statement is not understandable to me, my experience is on the opposite side.
The only thing I’m learning here is to not ever take any scope “review” to seriously with the exception of Big Jim Fish and Dark Lord Of Optics.

Have you considered the ZCO in question might have been malfunctioning due to parallax mechanism issues, i.e. over tightening of the ring caps?

 

[Long Range 338]

Worst value? My TT. Absolutely positively I would buy it again though. I can get the same thing done with a scope that costs less than half but I don’t want to….

There are tons of great scopes out there but you will always gravitate back to the more expensive ones once you have owned one. Not great value in the sense of being able to accomplish the same thing with a lesser scope but you can do it more easily and enjoyably with the better scope.

If you’ve ever had to work with cheap shitty tools after owning good ones you know exactly what I’m talking about.

 

[Huskydriver]

IOR and Leupold are gross...
Also NF.....

 

[acudaowner]

the worse scopes are those you don't spend the money on , the best ones are the scopes you buy and a few months later your wife takes in the divorce settlement you know if it's junk she don't want it , if it's worth a dam it's hers ..

 

[supercorndogs]

Number one optics troll post all time. This should be a sticky in the bear pit.

 

[Schütze]

Have you considered the ZCO in question might have been malfunctioning due to parallax mechanism issues, i.e. over tightening of the ring caps?

Of course I have. But I also have read many many excellent posts from spife and who am I to question him…
All I can say is if I would make his bad experience with a ZCO, I would verify by checking out a couple of other samples before I made such bold statements.

 

[Ronws]

I am kind of thinking the OP was talking about scopes you have bought that you would not buy again. And of that, I think he is talking about the pricier optics. Anyone can expect poor performance from a cheap optic. But the ones where you are spending more than 1500 and it is just not living up to that money, that is the problem. Or am I wrong?

Some scope problems I have heard are third and fourth generation retelling of something someone read in a comment stream, once.

Whereas, I try to comment only on the scopes I have bought.

So far, the only scope I have had a problem with, and I own more than one and it is a problem on all of them, is the turrets slipping on the Arken scopes. You have to use vibra-tite to get them to hold. And that was a suggestion from Arken tech support. I have not had to do that before. And it did work.

The glass was okay, as good as any others in the price range. The illumination is good. It is a heavy beast but that is what you get with all that elevation and illumination.

So, when the EP5 came out, as much as people were touting it, I have not bought one. I already have a 5-25 optic that pleases my eye and has never failed me, not once.

 

[ToddM]

Not a PRS contender, but anything SIG BDX......the tech is kinda neat I can see where the average to above average hunter might like it's holdover integration with rangefinding bionos, but good god the glass is HORRIBLE. I was an idiot and bought a Sierra 6BDX 3-18 to use with the Sig 3k binos for a hunting rig. The optical quality or lack of can almost make you vomit . Compared to a PST 2 or a Nikon Black 1000 4-16, it's night and day worse and those two are hardly glass to write home about. It's $150 optical quality in a $1200 optic.