Would The US Military Fire On Their Own People?

[Jgault]

will and fighting for homeland counts for a lot but lets not confuse the effectiveness of weapons and ROE

vietnam and korean wars would have been over in 1 year if not sooner if the ROE allowed crossing some fictitious line on a map

linebacker 2 effectively ended the Vietnam War in 12 days

when the ROE dont allow you to use your equipment effectively, then its a crap shoot

I agree but isn’t that what we are really talking about. Would the US Military be willing to go total war in its own country? Would they be willing to bomb neighborhoods night after night? What we are talking about would be the worst civil war in the history of mankind. Everything would splinter, there would be county to county warfare. Food and gas supplies would be cut off to the major cities, so no I don’t think and I hope that the us military would have the stomach for that.

 

[brianf]

I agree but isn’t that what we are really talking about. Would the US Military be willing to go total war in its own country? Would they be willing to bomb neighborhoods night after night? What we are talking about would be the worst civil war in the history of mankind. Everything would splinter, there would be county to county warfare. Food and gas supplies would be cut off to the major cities, so no I don’t think and I hope that the us military would have the stomach for that.

all these "conversations" start with the govt is bad and out to get us...thats just the hide in general

what is never explained is what is causing the drama

example;

if "civilians" in a certain city say New york

and every person on the island of manhattan has pledged to kill everyone from the surrounding areas, and is actually holding mass executions, or some crazy story like that

then 99% of the military and 99% of the civilian population will have no problem carpet bombing Manhatten = no civil war

if its a bunch of hippies in the woods not doing anything, of course there will be some pushback

the hide members never come up with an actual situation to talk about its always "in general" which makes a rational (take that lightly) conversation impossible

details count

 

[7.62willdo]

Well the gooks did have Chinese and russian anti-aircraft rockets and radar guided guns,and of course were gonna loose more planes by virtue of the fact we had more planes in the air……
and the one thing that your forgetting is the real war was fought in DC if the military had been turned loose with no ROEs the war would have been over in about 6 months with far fewer casualties and equipment lost…..

 

[GreenGO Juan]

exactly

dont put cannon on fighters but then say they need to confirm visual NVA jets

by the time you get a visual, they are inside the ATA missile performance envelope

ROE made the air war a mess when it should have been a turkey shoot

never mind that was new tech etc

A few things to add.

-Most of the aircraft lost were not fighters. There is a reason the F-105 got the nickname Thud. The sound it makes when it hits the ground. Only chance it had if it got jumped was to dump its payload and run like hell. F-105 is fast as hell down low!

- The US fighters were extremely heavy as the Airforce was flying out of Thailand and the Navy was way out in the South China sea. The VPAF was flying light and fast MiG-21 which did hit and run tactics having bases near by to land at, about 1/3 the weight of the F-4. They’d use the 21’s to jump them and then the MiG-17 would tangle with and could turn inside the heavily laden F-4’s, who had to still make it back home. F-4’s quickly learned not to turn the fight the mig 17. Climb rate and speed is where f-4 had the advantage

- Missile tech was still new. Early Fox1(radar) had a 8% launch to hit ratio.33% of these failures were crew did not maintain radar lock till impact, as they are guided off the aircraft’s radar. While the Fox2(ir) were around 19%.

- to the cannon, go look up the last time a US fighter shot down another aircraft with a cannon… it was nearly 50 years ago. Hell during desert storm a F-15 dropped a ground guided bomb on an airborne helicopter. Missile guidance has come a long long way.

The North Vietnamese lost approximately 120-150 aircraft and helicopters, the south Vietnamese, allied, and the US lost about 12500 aircraft and helicopters almost exclusively from groung fire and anti aircraft weapons. The US had total air superiority over south Vietnam, so the tiny at best North Vietnamese Air Force had no to little effect on the outcome. I’ve never even heard a Vietnam veteran that was worried about bombing from North Vietnamese planes. It’s hard to argue that the US didn’t have overwhelming force on its side. My point being having larger weapons and more technology isn’t a guarantee to outcome.

The point is you made a comment they didn’t.

My point is it wasn’t just farmers with Aks and ied’s that were fighting back.

 

[Jgault]

A few things to add.

-Most of the aircraft lost were not fighters. There is a reason the F-105 got the nickname Thud. The sound it makes when it hits the ground. Only chance it had if it got jumped was to dump its payload and run like hell. F-105 is fast as hell down low!

- The US fighters were extremely heavy as the Airforce was flying out of Thailand and the Navy was way out in the South China sea. The VPAF was flying light and fast MiG-21 which did hit and run tactics having bases near by to land at, about 1/3 the weight of the F-4. They’d use the 21’s to jump them and then the MiG-17 would tangle with and could turn inside the heavily laden F-4’s, who had to still make it back home. F-4’s quickly learned not to turn the fight the mig 17. Climb rate and speed is where f-4 had the advantage

- Missile tech was still new. Early Fox1(radar) had a 8% launch to hit ratio.33% of these failures were crew did not maintain radar lock till impact, as they are guided off the aircraft’s radar. While the Fox2(ir) were around 19%.


The point is you made a comment they didn’t.

My point is it wasn’t just farmers with Aks and ied’s that were fighting back.

I agree I shouldn’t have said a single plane, I wasn’t factually correct. But I was speaking more about air superiority which we did have.

 

[Longshot231]

When discussing the Vietnamese conflict the question should not be "why did the North Vietnamese win the war?" Rather the question should be "why did the US lose the war."

Never underestimate the psychological and political factors when discussing the dynamics of asymmetric warfare. That's why the US lost the war with North Vietnam.

 

[candyx]

When discussing the Vietnamese conflict the question should not be "why did the North Vietnamese win the war?" Rather the question should be "why did the US lose the war."

Never underestimate the psychological and political factors when discussing the dynamics of asymmetric warfare. That's why the US lost the war with North Vietnam.

The point is not winning the war its how long you can keep the sheep accepting and backing the narrative that they laid out for them. War is just a accounting vehicle that they use to transfer The People's money into their pockets that the taxpayer is unaware of. The "winning" of the war is to keep the Troops involved and willing to die for wrapped around patriotism for The People back home.
We shouldn't even jump into the war game to begin with, we spent 20 years in Afghanistan and had to leave because some Mullah Crack A Dulla wrapped in a sheet wearing sandals riding a camel couldn't be beat by a world super power. That's the picture they created and it makes them look inept but while you were sleeping they took 2 trillion of your money which you have nothing to show for it except for breaking your back making the money they spent. Welcome to America .......

 

[wade2big]

When discussing the Vietnamese conflict the question should not be "why did the North Vietnamese win the war?" Rather the question should be "why did the US lose the war."

Never underestimate the psychological and political factors when discussing the dynamics of asymmetric warfare. That's why the US lost the war with North Vietnam.

No. The questions should be:
1. Why did the US engage in an unnecessary war.
2. Why did anyone in power draft unwilling men to fight and die for nothing.
3. Why did so many of these drafted men answer the call to fight and die for nothing.
4. Why did families allow gov to steal away their young boys and send them to fight and die for nothing.
5. Why didn’t the families of 45,000 dead wage war against the US gov’t that killed them.

Same for Afghanistan, Iraq, and the rest of the bullshit. None of it was for America, Americans, or the constitution. All bullshit. The enemy is right here at home. It’s the same people that are giving the orders but we all can continue playing pretend.

 

[Longshot231]

No. The questions should be:
1. Why did the US engage in an unnecessary war.
2. Why did anyone in power draft unwilling men to fight and die for nothing.
3. Why did so many of these drafted men answer the call to fight and die for nothing.
4. Why did families allow gov to steal away their young boys and send them to fight and die for nothing.
5. Why didn’t the families of 45,000 dead wage war against the US gov’t that killed them.

Same for Afghanistan, Iraq, and the rest of the bullshit. None of it was for America, Americans, or the constitution. All bullshit. The enemy is right here at home. It’s the same people that are giving the orders but we all can continue playing pretend.

Agreed but I was just keeping things simple with the post.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Beating a dead horse, I know. So, how is the conspiracy theory that someone other than LHO fired the kill shot disproven? Granted, the Carcano operates similar to the old Springfield 7.62 and it was a loose old gun, barely a minute of outhouse. Just for giggles, let's say that LHO was up there and fired a shot. That does not prove that he made the kill shot.

Actually, one of the best explanations I heard came from Mafia hit man James Files. He was shooting a Remington Fireball with a frangible round. Basically, almost an SBR for .22.
No one else backed him up on that story that would come forward.

I misremebered the missing shot. Shot 1 missed, 2 and 3 hit.

The show I'm thinking of may have been JFK the lost shot from National Geographic. The theory is the first round hit a traffic signal and shed its jacket.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

When discussing the Vietnamese conflict the question should not be "why did the North Vietnamese win the war?" Rather the question should be "why did the US lose the war."

Never underestimate the psychological and political factors when discussing the dynamics of asymmetric warfare. That's why the US lost the war with North Vietnam.

Because the politicians didn't want the US to win. The South Vietnamese had to win so the US military was hamstrung.

 

[theLBC]

not really addressing the question but i think the clotshot mandates thinned out the type of soldier that would defy orders to kill his neighbors.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

No. The questions should be:
1. Why did the US engage in an unnecessary war.
2. Why did anyone in power draft unwilling men to fight and die for nothing.
3. Why did so many of these drafted men answer the call to fight and die for nothing.
4. Why did families allow gov to steal away their young boys and send them to fight and die for nothing.
5. Why didn’t the families of 45,000 dead wage war against the US gov’t that killed them.

Same for Afghanistan, Iraq, and the rest of the bullshit. None of it was for America, Americans, or the constitution. All bullshit. The enemy is right here at home. It’s the same people that are giving the orders but we all can continue playing pretend.

If the US had abandoned the Domino Theory and backed Vietnam instead of France and letting the Chinese support the Revolution we could have had an ally on both sides of the South China Sea.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

ask the survivors of Waco.

 

[mosin46]

the earlier stated claim that the involved (LOL) carcano and ammo shot a 0.7 group is undoubtedly the biggest horseshit accuracy claim i have ever heard on here. i have fired many 100s of rounds thru many C&R rifles. many were far higher quality than any ww2 era carcano. eg argentine,peruvian,chilean mausers; finn built and upgraded mn39s,91s,m30s,others+ a lot of others. 3 moa is about par for any i have shot or seen shot with standard grade surplus style ammo. yes,i am not an FBI "expert". one can't hardly see the sights on these type weapons. the sights are still horrible,in fact impossible,for precision shooting even for an expert as claimed. have you ever tried to rapidly cycle a like action,reacquire a target or stay on target? absolutely not happening. like said by me and many others over the years,could LHO have possibly done all this? yes. is it likely? far less than a 2% chance.

 

[Ronws]

the earlier stated claim that the involved (LOL) carcano and ammo shot a 0.7 group is undoubtedly the biggest horseshit accuracy claim i have ever heard on here. i have fired many 100s of rounds thru many C&R rifles. many were far higher quality than any ww2 era carcano. eg argentine,peruvian,chilean mausers; finn built and upgraded mn39s,91s,m30s,others+ a lot of others. 3 moa is about par for any i have shot or seen shot with standard grade surplus style ammo. yes,i am not an FBI "expert". one can't hardly see the sights on these type weapons. the sights are still horrible,in fact impossible,for precision shooting even for an expert as claimed. have you ever tried to rapidly cycle a like action,reacquire a target or stay on target? absolutely not happening. like said by me and many others over the years,could LHO have possibly done all this? yes. is it likely? far less than a 2% chance.

Not that you need an support but I read pretty much the same analysis in a book that was written by a retired Marine who was taking a tour of the The book suppository and stood at the window and knew how the Carcano performed and knew that not did LHO not do it, It is likely merely luck that he got a hit on anything in the limo. Aiming at JFK, could have easily hit Jackie or Gov. Connally.

 

[Longshot231]

the earlier stated claim that the involved (LOL) carcano and ammo shot a 0.7 group is undoubtedly the biggest horseshit accuracy claim i have ever heard on here. i have fired many 100s of rounds thru many C&R rifles. many were far higher quality than any ww2 era carcano. eg argentine,peruvian,chilean mausers; finn built and upgraded mn39s,91s,m30s,others+ a lot of others. 3 moa is about par for any i have shot or seen shot with standard grade surplus style ammo. yes,i am not an FBI "expert". one can't hardly see the sights on these type weapons. the sights are still horrible,in fact impossible,for precision shooting even for an expert as claimed. have you ever tried to rapidly cycle a like action,reacquire a target or stay on target? absolutely not happening. like said by me and many others over the years,could LHO have possibly done all this? yes. is it likely? far less than a 2% chance.

Not that you need an support but I read pretty much the same analysis in a book that was written by a retired Marine who was taking a tour of the The book suppository and stood at the window and knew how the Carcano performed and knew that not did LHO not do it, It is likely merely luck that he got a hit on anything in the limo. Aiming at JFK, could have easily hit Jackie or Gov. Connally.

I have also shot the Carcano but not with a scope. I could load a flintlock rifle faster than operating the bolt on the Carcano. And I am also pretty fast and accurate with some WWII bolt action rifles.

Getting the first shot off would have been easy but not any subsequent rounds.

LHO was not an expert class rifleman in the USMC. He only attained the level of marksman and that was with an M-14. So his skills with a bolt action Carcano can be preceded with, "Once upon a time..."

 

[Merle]

Not that you need an support but I read pretty much the same analysis in a book that was written by a retired Marine who was taking a tour of the The book suppository and stood at the window and knew how the Carcano performed and knew that not did LHO not do it, It is likely merely luck that he got a hit on anything in the limo. Aiming at JFK, could have easily hit Jackie or Gov. Connally.

LOL

 

[Ronws]

I did not get to shoot the Carcano but I did once get my hands on a Springfield from that era that operated the same way. That was my first moment of doubt.

 

[pmclaine]

The book suppository

sounds painful

 

[pmclaine]

I have also shot the Carcano but not with a scope. I could load a flintlock rifle faster than operating the bolt on the Carcano. And I am also pretty fast and accurate with some WWII bolt action rifles.

Getting the first shot off would have been easy but not any subsequent rounds.

LHO was not an expert class rifleman in the USMC. He only attained the level of marksman and that was with an M-14. So his skills with a bolt action Carcano can be preceded with, "Once upon a time..."

Expert in the USMC at the time does not mean what you think it means.

It’s a good standard but it only measures knowledge of the fundamentals…..not practical ability.

 

[Longshot231]

I did not get to shoot the Carcano but I did once get my hands on a Springfield from that era that operated the same way. That was my first moment of doubt.

I have owned several Springfields. The bolt is much easier and faster to operate.

 

[Longshot231]

Expert in the USMC at the time does not mean what you think it means.

It’s a good standard but it only measures knowledge of the fundamentals…..not practical ability.

Interesting. Yet, LHO was still only a marksman. Correct? If so, his proficiency could not have been all that some claim it was.

 

[mosin46]

as all know,qualifying as marksman or sharpshooter at PI is done from rested,prepared or set positions at paper,using an M1 or M14. the dallas setting is WAY different: shooting a downhill,moving,human,protected target,unless a martyr or suicidal. oswald was maybe crazy but not suicidal. supposedly he killed tippet to defend himself so not suicidal.

BTW-forgot to mention trigger control in the dallas setting. the surplus carcano trigger is NOT a TT set up tikka. pretty much an uncontrollable POS.

 

[7.62willdo]

Interesting. Yet, LHO was still only a marksman. Correct? If so, his proficiency could not have been all that some claim it was.

How/ why are we even still talking about this
Anybody that believes LHO did it is an idiot

 

[Explorer]

Who remembers the 29 Palms Survey of 1994? I'm afraid the self-servancy has taken over since then.

The Combat Arms Survey - 29 Palms 1994 | RallyPoint

http://www.29palmssurvey.com/survey.html The Combat Arms Survey was distributed to 300 Marines at 29 Palms in 1994 (20 years ago). It was NOT a government sponsored survey, however it did cause some massive concern at the time. I've included a site which references the sequence of events, but...

www.rallypoint.com

 

[mosin46]

i remember that study well. the results,while criticized,were disturbing. IMHO there is no question that the military would fire on US citizens. ie esp since most members that understand that allegiance to the constitution,not to george,bill,barack or joe,is the meaning of the oath,have been driven out. we do know that most LEO,all of CIA,FBI,ATF,DEA,EPA will do so.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I think this thread just looped back on itself.

"The biggest problems are politically appointed officers and the improper training given to the enlisted. Same problem as public education, it's been perverted to make unthinking followers."

 

[gunsnjeeps]

BTW, most Sailors wouldn't shoot Americans because Naval Leadership has forgot that they are members of the Armed Forces and think guns are evil. Thank you political appointees.

 

[pmclaine]

Interesting. Yet, LHO was still only a marksman. Correct? If so, his proficiency could not have been all that some claim it was.

If he got a pizza box he passed. He was able to hit a big ass target at 500 yards and he did a 300 yard rapid fire probably with a Garand to include a reload. Likely he earned his pizza box by dropping points in off hand.

He was probably a better trained rifleman than much of the public even if they were prodigious hunters. I don’t think the community was at the level it is today.

Saying this I’m not arguing LHO did the deed. There is a lot of tomfoolery going on and we should know the truth.

 

[mosin46]

we may never know. maybe if trump or RFK in '24 LOL.

 

[pmclaine]

Who remembers the 29 Palms Survey of 1994? I'm afraid the self-servancy has taken over since then.

The Combat Arms Survey - 29 Palms 1994 | RallyPoint

http://www.29palmssurvey.com/survey.html The Combat Arms Survey was distributed to 300 Marines at 29 Palms in 1994 (20 years ago). It was NOT a government sponsored survey, however it did cause some massive concern at the time. I've included a site which references the sequence of events, but...

www.rallypoint.com

i remember that study well. the results,while criticized,were disturbing. IMHO there is no question that the military would fire on US citizens. ie esp since most members that understand that allegiance to the constitution,not to george,bill,barack or joe,is the meaning of the oath,have been driven out. we do know that most LEO,all of CIA,FBI,ATF,DEA,EPA will do so.

Unless you have been asleep the last three years they absolutely will follow orders.

They will start with their own first and they have pretty much completed that phase of the plan.

They are all “Ordinary Men” now.

 

[OkieMike]

as all know,qualifying as marksman or sharpshooter at PI is done from rested,prepared or set positions at paper,using an M1 or M14. the dallas setting is WAY different: shooting a downhill,moving,human,protected target,unless a martyr or suicidal. oswald was maybe crazy but not suicidal. supposedly he killed tippet to defend himself so not suicidal.

BTW-forgot to mention trigger control in the dallas setting. the surplus carcano trigger is NOT a TT set up tikka. pretty much an uncontrollable POS.

Dad told me a few things when I enlisted...

One of the few I still remember is... "Don't put much stock in the "expert" badge. It's easy to be an expert at sending lead downrange when no one is sending it back at you."

Mike

 

[gigamortis]

Remember the National Guard going door to door after hurricane Katrina. That was a beta test for sure.

 

[acudaowner]

could be why the national guard from one state is set to another state most people are not going to shoot there own family ( then again some would defiantly do it ) same with the military .

 

[mosin46]

that is what chicoms did to crush tiananmen square. no real chance all the involved troops were fanatic maoists. it worked.

 

[Docsherm]

Dad told me a few things when I enlisted...

One of the few I still remember is... "Don't put much stock in the "expert" badge. It's easy to be an expert at sending lead downrange when no one is sending it back at you."

Mike

As someone with both a wrath and badge..... sounds like some looser BS to me....... the ones with only one of those tend to be to slackers that only do as little as possible to get by..... in Garrison and Combat.

 

[hankpac]

Wanna bet that there are no American soldiers who would't fire on Americans? There are some who just can't wait.
At a Commissioning ceremony for ROTC Army and AF officers, the keynote speaker was a 4 star. XO of the SpaceForce.
He didn't talk about an oath to the Constitution, he talked solely and strictly about "Loyalty to the President" , he said it several times, ("you owe your loyalty to the President) and in different ways. I looked at the young officers sitting there, and saw shock on the faces of many of them. Not once did he cite the Constitution nor did he cite the American People.
1st the American Soldier:

I'm not going to post the General's image.

 

[Charmingmander]

Lol. They are filling the ranks with not only the woke but with non-whites who barely speak english from foreign nations. You will be shot down and oppressed by your replacements.

All part of the plan. 10 million plus invaders since Biden took office and counting. Tick. Tock.

 

[DocRDS]

Asking the wrong question.

Not "If", but "which ones"

Also goes for local law enforcement.
----
Plus some side thinking. No US soldier will fire on a US Citizen.

They'll declare you a terrorist/traitor/enemy of the state first.....

 

[Charmingmander]

I wonder how tough that lesbian is going to be when she's has no backup because 40% of her tranny squadmates have committed suicide.... and she finds herself alone in the streets after threatening the American citizens.

They will send foreign nationals to kill you. They are already trying to recruit the illegals and have been for at least several years. There's already clicks in the military with different races and it's only getting worse.

You think these people with zero ties to this land or flag will think twice before pulling the trigger on you if it makes them money?

 

[Explorer]

They will send foreign nationals to kill you. They are already trying to recruit the illegals and have been for at least several years. There's already clicks in the military with different races and it's only getting worse.

You think these people with zero ties to this land or flag will think twice before pulling the trigger on you if it makes them money?

Just like the use of UN troops.

 

[mosin46]

and,UN blue hats,id used,will be PLA.

 

[lonegunman762x51]

This is a stupid question. Of course they will, they kill hundreds of guys a year training to kill people. They misdrop artillery and bombs on their own guys. They have massacred Americans on more than one occasion and they killed the half of Americans who tried to leave in the Civil War.

Do you think that General Milly, a piece of shit who secretly called the chinks and promised to betray his own country to his Chinese masters would not gladly murder you for a free order of almond chicken?

 

[Maxduty]

Lmao, fuck her martial law. I'll supply firearms to the south side locos, the bloods and the crips in the city. Lets see how the numbers play out. I'd give them to the MS13 guys, but they seem to already have their own.