Would you re barrel your Mini 14 if there was a good option with reasonably quick turn around time?

[357Max]

Your answer to the pole above should not be based on what is available now. It's would you if there were a better solution that was reasonable on cost with a pretty quick turn around. Think about LRI's blueprinted 700 barreled action group buy. How many people dug that old 700 out and shipped it once that option presented itself.

I know there are a lot more people on the hide with a mini 14 burred somewhere deep in there safe. After experiencing the accuracy of a good AR it kind of ruins the mini.

My stainless ranch rifle hasn't been fired in 10 years. I just haven't shot the damn thing, but can't bring my self to get rid of it. Maybe just nostalgia, I love the look, size & weight.

Dug it out of the back of safe in December and tore it down completely to try to assess what could be done. Did a nice trigger job that turned out great, but that scrawny ass non floated spaghetti barrel is the pits. The way Ruger chose to manufacture it does not lend itself well to barrel upgrades.

I got to thinking that 350 Legend would be about perfect for a mini 14 ranch rifle. I would shoot the hell out of that & it would be a great pig gun.

I called Paul Craddock about the possibility of having him make a 17" or 18" 350 Legend barrel for it with a heavy couture .850 through gas block, stepped down to .750 out to muzzle with 5/8"x 24 thread. Paul actually said he also had an old ranch rifle he just hangs onto & was receptive to the idea. Then, all this Covid shit started & I got side tracked with bolt gun and AR projects. It would be a labor of love, but the heart wants what it wants.

Accuracy Systems does heavy barrel mini's, but there is a lot of hand fitting & wait is pretty damn long. If you ever need to replace barrel the whole process has to repeat.

Another thread on here got me thinking about it again and I just had a bit of a brainstorm. The problem with re barreling as I understand it, is that the receiver threads aren't clocked consistently. So even if you wanted to screw in a bone stock factory take off barrel, the gas port, extractor groove location, and head space would be wrong 9 out 10 times.

There are a lot of good parts for the mini, the barrel is the problem. Never mind that I'd personally like to do it in 350L, think whatever AR caliber floats your boat.

My brilliant idea is this:

• Gage interest for a possible group buy. Snipers Hide poll.
• There has got to be a way to automate this via CNC
• Coerce @LongRifles Inc. into writing a receiver blue print program to single point cut receiver thread oversize, but start clocking at exactly the same spot for every one. I'm not sure it's even possible. Is there enough meat in the receiver? Unlike the AR, mini barrel is supported at front and receiver is steel or investment cast Stainless so it may be possible.
• If the above is possible then a prefit/single barrel program could be written that would fit any blueprinted receiver.
• Purchase a heavy gas block/adjustable gas block from accuracy systems. There's a good variety available .750 - 1", with/without strut rod etc. I would use the .850 one pictured below since I like the Mini M1A look.
• Add flash hider brake combo of your choosing. Again there is a good selection available that include front sight if desired. I'll be using the M1A style index-able 5/8" x 24 flash hider sight combo shown below (in my case have it bored to .357+clearance).
• Sign me up to be guinea pig!
• Hell yeah a 350 Legend mini M1A, kind of a modern replacement for the M1 Carbine.
• Mini 14's would be relevant again! To me anyway.

Accuracy systems M1A strut rod/adjustable gas block for mini 14 heavy barrel

Accuracy Systems 5/8" x 24 adapter to index-able M1A style sight/flash hider. This sets front sight at proper height for mini 14

 

[oldfatguy]

Interesting project. Hope it works out for you. Makes the ease of building the AR platform to suit your needs all the more appreciated.

OFG

 

[Ledzep]

Juice not worth the squeeze.

1) Would not waste time blueprinting. IME it does nothing for accuracy potential unless the system is borked to begin with (NO contact on one lug... I mean 0%, not partial... 0%). It's a placebo operation 99% of the time.

2) Would advise against the glorified 9mm. .300 blackout makes a lot more sense IMO and tends to run better. .350 Legend is going to require guide rib removal in the magazine(s). You're going to have to do your own R&D on the gas port.

3) There is no fixing the timing issue. It would be a case by case basis to remove material from the receiver face to get them to clock, which would in turn change the spacing to the gas system and likely cause issues with where the op-rod "lives". Other side of it is to set the barrel shoulder back which then requires head space alterations.

Don't get me wrong, it's very doable with enough time/money and the one-off projects are often the most teaching/rewarding, but it's not going to be simple/easy/popular.

 

[supercorndogs]

Mini 30 might be a quicker path.

 

[357Max]

Juice not worth the squeeze.

1) Would not waste time blueprinting. IME it does nothing for accuracy potential unless the system is borked to begin with (NO contact on one lug... I mean 0%, not partial... 0%). It's a placebo operation 99% of the time.

2) Would advise against the glorified 9mm. .300 blackout makes a lot more sense IMO and tends to run better. .350 Legend is going to require guide rib removal in the magazine(s). You're going to have to do your own R&D on the gas port.

3) There is no fixing the timing issue. It would be a case by case basis to remove material from the receiver face to get them to clock, which would in turn change the spacing to the gas system and likely cause issues with where the op-rod "lives". Other side of it is to set the barrel shoulder back which then requires head space alterations.

Don't get me wrong, it's very doable with enough time/money and the one-off projects are often the most teaching/rewarding, but it's not going to be simple/easy/popular.

All valid points.
1. Blueprinting in this case is for one reason only. To uniform clocking of receiver threads. Once done, it would allow a fixed program to position gas port, extractor notch, and head space. It would allow a prefit barrel to be compatible with any receiver that had the single point trued receiver threads cut.
2. Yep I don't think 5.56 mags could even be made to work with 350L. I think the mini30 mags could be tweaked though. I'd expect to have to R&D the gas on 350L
3. This point is a good summary of the mini's negatives & why there are no DIY'ish replacement barrel options for the mini. This is what spurred my receiver thread blueprint idea.

Although I'd personally like to build one in 350L. I see the value in this idea as offering the ability to send off the receiver to be trued and a then a barrel in caliber of choice produced on CNC equipment. Burn it out no problem order another that would screw in and clock correctly. Want to change caliber, just order it once your receiver threads have been trued. Turn around time on a re-barrel could be cut drastically.
Accuracy Systems already has a lot of required components in stock such as adjustable gas block for various heavy barrel profiles, modified op rods for up to 1" bull barrels etc. It's the damn barrel clocking issue that bogs the whole thing down to a crawl with all the required mock up and hand fitting.

I have a mill & lathe so drilling my own gas port or machining the extractor key wouldn't be a problem. Head space is a problem though. Just trying to figure a better way to put a mini re-barrel within the reach of the average Joe.

 

[want2learn]

When state restrictions came to be and it looked like the end was near for the AR platform many including myself thought the mini might offer a realistic way to participate in 3Gun. It didn't quite pan out that way then.....but sadly it might well prove timely in the near future. I'm intrigued.

 

[Ledzep]

Timing the threads is a slippery slope. Even M1 garands, 1903's etc. that "should" have timed threads often require final fitting and headspace modifications to new barrels to get them perfect. That's the real beauty of the barrel extension on the AR-15.

Way further down the rabbit hole than the market will bear, but if you've got it in a CNC machine anyway, might be more consistent plan to set headspace and barrel fixturing another way other than direct threads. In other words, clean out the threads completely then make barrel extensions that mount into a standard spec hole in the receiver some other way with an indexing pin (Or another indexing feature) like an AR-15. This all hinges on the bolt lug to bolt face dimension being held dead nuts on all of the Mini production. Not sure if that's the case.

Again, buzzing material off of the receiver face to get threads to clock correctly is not your answer. It will cause the barrel to screw in further, which will hit the bolt nose, change head space, and change the distance from the right-side bolt lug to the gas port (think about how the op-rod works). Almost certain there's not enough meat there to clean the threads away and put new ones that are clocked.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Your answer to the pole above should not be based on what is available now. It's would you if there were a better solution that was reasonable on cost with a pretty quick turn around. Think about LRI's blueprinted 700 barreled action group buy. How many people dug that old 700 out and shipped it once that option presented itself.

I know there are a lot more people on the hide with a mini 14 burred somewhere deep in there safe. After experiencing the accuracy of a good AR it kind of ruins the mini.

My stainless ranch rifle hasn't been fired in 10 years. I just haven't shot the damn thing, but can't bring my self to get rid of it. Maybe just nostalgia, I love the look, size & weight.

Dug it out of the back of safe in December and tore it down completely to try to assess what could be done. Did a nice trigger job that turned out great, but that scrawny ass non floated spaghetti barrel is the pits. The way Ruger chose to manufacture it does not lend itself well to barrel upgrades.

I got to thinking that 350 Legend would be about perfect for a mini 14 ranch rifle. I would shoot the hell out of that & it would be a great pig gun.

I called Paul Craddock about the possibility of having him make a 17" or 18" 350 Legend barrel for it with a heavy couture .850 through gas block, stepped down to .750 out to muzzle with 5/8"x 24 thread. Paul actually said he also had an old ranch rifle he just hangs onto & was receptive to the idea. Then, all this Covid shit started & I got side tracked with bolt gun and AR projects. It would be a labor of love, but the heart wants what it wants.

Accuracy Systems does heavy barrel mini's, but there is a lot of hand fitting & wait is pretty damn long. If you ever need to replace barrel the whole process has to repeat.

Another thread on here got me thinking about it again and I just had a bit of a brainstorm. The problem with re barreling as I understand it, is that the receiver threads aren't clocked consistently. So even if you wanted to screw in a bone stock factory take off barrel, the gas port, extractor groove location, and head space would be wrong 9 out 10 times.

There are a lot of good parts for the mini, the barrel is the problem.

My brilliant idea is this:

• Gage interest for a possible group buy. Snipers Hide poll.
• There has got to be a way to automate this via CNC
• Coerce @LongRifles Inc. into writing a receiver blue print program to single point cut receiver thread oversize, but start clocking at exactly the same spot for every one. I'm not sure it's even possible. Is there enough meat in the receiver? Unlike the AR, mini barrel is supported at front and receiver is steel or investment cast Stainless so it may be possible.
• If the above is possible then a prefit/single barrel program could be written that would fit any blueprinted receiver.
• Purchase heavy .850 adjustable gas block from accuracy systems
• Add M1A style index-able 5/8" x 24 flash hider sight combo shown below (in my case have it bored to .357+clearance).
• Add M1A heavy barrel adjustable strut rod/gas block
• Sign me up to be guinea pig!
• Hell yeah a 350 Legend mini M1A, kind of a modern replacement for the M1 Carbine.
• Mini 14's would be relevant again! To me anyway.

Accuracy systems M1A strut rod/adjustable gas block for mini 14 heavy barrel
View attachment 7338620
Accuracy Systems 5/8" x 24 adapter to index-able M1A style sight/flash hider. This sets front sight at proper height for mini 14
View attachment 7338621

Accuracy Systems long ago made a muzzle brake/ tuner combo. Was majic on a factory bbl 223. Still an option ?

 

[steve123]

Even the 350 legend AR mags don't work that great.

It sounds like too much of a chance things are going to get expensive and at the end of it the semi auto won't be one any more.

 

[357Max]

Timing the threads is a slippery slope. Even M1 garands, 1903's etc. that "should" have timed threads often require final fitting and headspace modifications to new barrels to get them perfect. That's the real beauty of the barrel extension on the AR-15.

Way further down the rabbit hole than the market will bear, but if you've got it in a CNC machine anyway, might be more consistent plan to set headspace and barrel fixturing another way other than direct threads. In other words, clean out the threads completely then make barrel extensions that mount into a standard spec hole in the receiver some other way with an indexing pin (Or another indexing feature) like an AR-15. This all hinges on the bolt lug to bolt face dimension being held dead nuts on all of the Mini production. Not sure if that's the case.

Again, buzzing material off of the receiver face to get threads to clock correctly is not your answer. It will cause the barrel to screw in further, which will hit the bolt nose, change head space, and change the distance from the right-side bolt lug to the gas port (think about how the op-rod works). Almost certain there's not enough meat there to clean the threads away and put new ones that are clocked.

Responding back to front.
Edit: Ledzep a light bulb just went off for me & I think I now get your perspective. My intent would not be to machine the face back to a fixed thread start, what I'm suggesting is to over size the threads (sim to what you suggested clearing out old threads) then start new threads with single point @ same clocking for every receiver. I agree machining the face back to adjust clocking is a terrible idea. It would cause more problems then it solved as you've suggested.
There should not be a need to touch receiver face, or minor skim at most. Single point cut threads are how all the good modern actions are produced. This modern machining practice is what makes it possible to start tenon threads at same clock position every time. The huge LRI rem 700 barreled action group buy included this procedure to the actions. The difference is that for a 700 I don't believe the thread start position was uniformed action to action & it's really not required for a 700. In that group buy LRI documented barrel to serialized receiver dimensions so you could order a replacement in the future sim to pre-fit. In the case of the mini, uniformed clocking is not required, but if not done then each barrel has to be individually fitted to each action. If there is enough meat in the action tenon to allow the threads to be oversized bigger, then clocking of threads could be done. This would allow prefit barrels to bolt on any action that's had the procedure.

Rem 700 full blueprint jobs were also way to far down the rabbit hole for most of the market until LRI came along and figured out how to apply modern CNC machining to accomplish it. They sold a metric shit ton of those barreled actions & no one was complaining about long lead times, quality, or cost.
I did do a lot of head scratching on the idea of alternate barrel mounting, but just haven't come up with anything that would work. Pinned maybe, but there just isn't enough room between op rod and tenon to try some alternate extended or external threaded extension. I agree 100% about the bolt lug to bolt face and bolt face to receiver face. I went as far down the rabbit hole as I could in Ruger forums etc & spoke to Accuracy Systems. From what I gathered those dimensions are very consistent. Thread clocking.......nope!

Back in the days when M1 Garands & 1903's were being built, that would be a true statement.
Timing threads with single point cutting on today's CNC is not at all a slippery slope, It's the norm & why we can order a prefit for a Big Horn and it will head space every time, with the barrel engraving exactly where it should be.

 

[357Max]

Accuracy Systems long ago made a muzzle brake/ tuner combo. Was majic on a factory bbl 223. Still an option ?

Not sure if they still make that. Seams they have shifted more to installing heavy barrels. They do make a lot of great components & from what I can tell do good work. Long lead times though. Their busy, must be an appetite for this.

 

[357Max]

Even the 350 legend AR mags don't work that great.

It sounds like too much of a chance things are going to get expensive and at the end of it the semi auto won't be one any more.

Your not the first I've heard this from. Might wind up kicking my self in the ass, but it will be very satisfying if I can get it to function well.

I'm about to try it with an AR pistol 350L if optics planet ever ships the Lancer Systems L5 Advanced Warfighter Magazine, .300 Blackout, 10-Round
They are suppose to be fairly easily modified to run 350L. I'll let you know if it's true?

 

[Ledzep]

Yep the two ways to start threads at the same place is to start them fresh at the same place or face off existing threads until they start in the right place.

M1 Garands, 1903s, etc... I'm sure others were thread milled in a fixture that clocked lead threads in the same place. For the most part it works okay but I've had to face off barrel shoulders and receiver faces to get them to fit correctly on M1s, even with timed threads. Obviously this required a headspace alteration.

You get a "window" of tolerance because you can torque the barrel on probably from 35 to 150 ft lb, but it's still very hard to get threaded things to time correctly. On a 20 you thread for example every .001" is worth 7 degrees. To time up logos and caliber markings, sure... Gas ports... Ehhhh maybe.

That's why I say you're better off creating a self-aligning feature on the barrel/receiver interface... Problem then is how you hold the barrel in the receiver without the threads, given the available material.