Would you shoot this match?

[Dthomas3523]

So, the goal is to test skills and such that used to be tested a lot, and now with bags and rifles being used.....the shooter is being almost removed from the equation.

(I am **NOT** saying current matches are bad. They are fun. Not debating that).

I also want shooters to be able to use their current setup with only a little/easy modification.

So, would you shoot a match with following restrictions:

20lb rifle weight limit (scope and such included)
Only one bag for the entire match (same bag for everything)
8lb bag limit (no larger than pump pillow)
1.5lb minimum trigger weight
No muzzle devices (no cans or brakes)

To explain further, the removal of brakes alleviates the need to set a weight limit like 16lbs. Many shooters only have one comp gun and they can’t get it below 20lbs without major changes or another rifle. The recoil added from no break would take the place of a lower weight restriction.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Fuck yea id shoot it

 

[LV Precision]

Would I shoot a match like this? Yes. Do I want to set up a totally different rifle that meets these requirements? Probably not.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Would I shoot a match like this? Yes. Do I want to set up a totally different rifle that meets these requirements? Probably not.

Would you be able to take weight and brake off your current rifle and make it legal?

If so, that’s my intent.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I will add this caveat though. Id like to see more "supressor only" matches, strictly for the noise aspect, not for recoil reduction. I could happily do a 17lb suppressed rifle. I ran one just like that for a while. KRG W3, no weights and a med palma barrel and supressor.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I will add this caveat though. Id like to see more "supressor only" matches, strictly for the noise aspect, not for recoil reduction. I could happily do a 17lb suppressed rifle. I ran one just like that for a while. KRG W3, no weights and a med palma barrel and supressor.

So would I. I see so few of them though, hard to cater.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Yep, as long as I can strip shit off and not pay extra money to make weight. Absolutely.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Yes, but then again I would shoot anything.

Aside from no brake thats typically what I carry. Mostly because im a frugal newbie and thought super heavy custom rifles and myriad of bags were excessive. But I who am I to judge.

Also where I shot was like a 3 mile hike up and down multiple 500ft foothills. So lighter was easier.

 

[LV Precision]

Would you be able to take weight and brake off your current rifle and make it legal?

If so, that’s my intent.

I could take off weight and make it work, but I'd also look for something that best meets the needs of this "division". I'd probably run a 223 to really game it, and replicate my Dasher with something that doesn't require a brake. Otherwise I think the weight limit, trigger weight, and 1 bag are pretty good; for those with good fundamentals, shouldn't be too difficult to overcome.

 

[JBoomhauer]

The power level is the reason I said the above, NRL hunter i have to purchase another barrel. If there was no limits or a class that accounts for low powered rifles it would work out.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I could take off weight and make it work, but I'd also look for something that best meets the needs of this "division". I'd probably run a 223 to really game it, and replicate my Dasher with something that doesn't require a brake. Otherwise I think the weight limit, trigger weight, and 1 bag are pretty good; for those with good fundamentals, shouldn't be too difficult to overcome.

So, you’d basically work to move around the intent in an attempt to get right back to being like every other match?

I’d likely not allow .223 or make its own division.

 

[kriller134]

Yeah I’d be super down for this. All I would have to do is take my brake off.

 

[Mormegil87]

Most likely not. If I can't have the recoil reduction benefit of a brake, I want the noise reduction of a suppressor.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Most likely not. If I can't have the recoil reduction benefit of a brake, I want the noise reduction of a suppressor.

If everyone had a can, no problem.

But a can does mitigate some recoil.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

So, you’d basically work to move around the intent in an attempt to get right back to being like every other match?

I’d likely not allow .223 or make its own division.

So then caliber restrictions? No matter what you do guys will look for the optimal setup and push the limits of the rules setforth. Thats a game in and of itself, hence all the 6mm wildcats. So is the goal to take the equipment out of the equation altogether or at least lessen the effect?

 

[Mechdesigner]

You just described my GAP PPR...you can be very competitive with a rifle that meets these specs!

 

[Dthomas3523]

So then caliber restrictions? No matter what you do guys will look for the optimal setup and push the limits of the rules setforth. Thats a game in and of itself, hence all the 6mm wildcats. So is the goal to take the equipment out of the equation altogether or at least lessen the effect?

The intent is to test the shooter more so than the gear.

As well as prohibit the answer being the same for every stage (sit bag down, place gun on bag, tap light trigger).

 

[Eric32]

Seems like a good idea. A thread protector solves everyone's problem.

But a suppressor division would be cool tho.

I think another good rule would be
-No addtional bolt-on weights

 

[LV Precision]

So, you’d basically work to move around the intent in an attempt to get right back to being like every other match?

I’d likely not allow .223 or make its own division.

You could make .223 it's own division, but likely wouldn't prevent someone from placing well in the overall. And honestly, a 1.5lb trigger still isn't very heavy, you'd have to get up to the 2.5-3lbs makes it more challenging.

A 20lb rifle in something like an MDT ACC with an AG Schmedium wouldn't be too far off from my competition gun.

The NRL Hunter with power factor, pretty much mandating calibers 6.5+, has a pretty good idea. There's enough of a recoil difference with 6.5creedmoor vs the 6mm calibers to have to focus more on fundamentals.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Hell why not get a sponsor to supply the rifle.......like the FN match at ASC years ago. Wanna talk about testing the shooter.......holy shit.......same rifle, same scope, same ammo.

They only thing remaining you can do is stagger the shooters so nobody communicates or sees the stage before their turn to shoot it.

The logistics would be a bitch.......but wow that would be an awesome match.

Ern

 

[Jrb572]

I like the idea. I would limit it to one small rear bag. Nothing larger than say around the size of a small TAB rear bag.

 

[IronOperator87]

Absolutely and bring em to the east coast

 

[Dthomas3523]

I like the idea. I would limit it to one small rear bag. Nothing larger than say around the size of a small TAB rear bag.

Good point. One dedicated rear bag and the other one.

 

[kriller134]

How would enforcement work? Inspection before the match starts?

 

[Dthomas3523]

How would enforcement work? Inspection before the match starts?

Ya, weigh in at a table prior. Anyone can ask for a check at anytime.

Get caught changing something during match and you’re out forever on these matches.

 

[kriller134]

Ya, weigh in at a table prior. Anyone can ask for a check at anytime.

Get caught changing something during match and you’re out forever on these matches.

Yeah I’d take it a step farther and make everyone pay first then inspect. You can’t pass inspection you’re done with no refund for trying to cheat your fellow competitors.

 

[JMGlasgow]

If I can't use my suppressor I would not shoot that match. My heaviest rifle weighs 17.6 lbs with sling and suppressor.

Everything else I'm good with.

 

[FALex]

So, the goal is to test skills and such that used to be tested a lot, and now with bags and rifles being used.....the shooter is being almost removed from the equation.

(I am **NOT** saying current matches are bad. They are fun. Not debating that).

I also want shooters to be able to use their current setup with only a little/easy modification.

So, would you shoot a match with following restrictions:

20lb rifle weight limit (scope and such included)
Only one bag for the entire match (same bag for everything)
8lb bag limit (no larger than pump pillow)
1.5lb minimum trigger weight
No muzzle devices (no cans or brakes)

To explain further, the removal of brakes alleviates the need to set a weight limit like 16lbs. Many shooters only have one comp gun and they can’t get it below 20lbs without major changes or another rifle. The recoil added from no break would take the place of a lower weight restriction.

It's a great idea, but in the interests of keeping things sane for everyone, I'd prefer to see simple gear restrictions and no "gaming," bullshit. Just shoot the fucking COF as it's written.

I've been on several COF's where there are "gear restrictions," but let's face it, they're never enough. As soon as you say "no obnoxiously large bags," someone will come up to the line with a fucking queen mattress.

 

[65x55guy]

‘ As soon as you say "no obnoxiously large bags," someone will come up to the line with a fucking queen mattress.’

Line of the century right there folks.

 

[HarvestMoon]

I like the practical concept of this. I think a can should be standard equipment for the modern Rifleman. If a competitor has his act together enough to own a can he should not be brought down to the level of the less equipped. We should keep the equipment standards high enough to lift others. This does not prohibit someone who does not own one, but rather could be an opportunity to educate and lift others to a better way of doing things. So long story short, yes I would shoot the match but please allow silencers as long as they make weight. So if the intent is to test the running of a rifle you would use in the "real world" IMHO a silencer is basic or "standard" modern Rifleman equipment. Thanks!

 

[220wyo]

I would love to shoot this match. I shoot a 13 pound 6x47 without a break as my everything rifle, coyotes, prairie dogs, deer, and local matches. I would have to set the trigger up a little but no biggie. Sounds fun.
Kyle

 

[Dthomas3523]

I like the practical concept of this. I think a can should be standard equipment for the modern Rifleman. If a competitor has his act together enough to own a can he should not be brought down to the level of the less equipped. We should keep the equipment standards high enough to lift others. This does not prohibit someone who does not own one, but rather could be an opportunity to educate and lift others to a better way of doing things. So long story short, yes I would shoot the match but please allow silencers as long as they make weight. So if the intent is to test the running of a rifle you would use in the "real world" IMHO a silencer is basic or "standard" modern Rifleman equipment. Thanks!

It would absolutely be seen as an advantage to those with the can in the eyes of those without. As it absolutely does help some with recoil.

The point isn’t necessarily to run as we would in the real world. It’s to get some crossover shooters to bring their comp gun, make a small couple changes and shoot.

Otherwise I would set a limit of 16-18lbs and allow cans and brakes.

Cans are a no go unless most of the field will have one. Non negotiable. It’s not worth the headache complaints I’d get from the majority of shooters who won’t have one.

 

[Tree]

It would absolutely be seen as an advantage to those with the can in the eyes of those without. As it absolutely does help some with recoil.

The point isn’t necessarily to run as we would in the real world. It’s to get some crossover shooters to bring their comp gun, make a small couple changes and shoot.

Otherwise I would set a limit of 16-18lbs and allow cans and brakes.

Cans are a no go unless most of the field will have one. Non negotiable. It’s not worth the headache complaints I’d get from the majority of shooters who won’t have one.

Why can’t everyone just be civil and get a suppressor.

wouldn’t even have to change my rifle with the exception of the can.

If I bring a bean chair for relaxing in between shooters can I use that? It’s not a bag. It’s a chair.

 

[Precision Underground]

So, the goal is to test skills and such that used to be tested a lot, and now with bags and rifles being used.....the shooter is being almost removed from the equation.

(I am **NOT** saying current matches are bad. They are fun. Not debating that).

I also want shooters to be able to use their current setup with only a little/easy modification.

So, would you shoot a match with following restrictions:

20lb rifle weight limit (scope and such included)
Only one bag for the entire match (same bag for everything)
8lb bag limit (no larger than pump pillow)
1.5lb minimum trigger weight
No muzzle devices (no cans or brakes)

To explain further, the removal of brakes alleviates the need to set a weight limit like 16lbs. Many shooters only have one comp gun and they can’t get it below 20lbs without major changes or another rifle. The recoil added from no break would take the place of a lower weight restriction.

This needs to happen. Especially the no brake part. One adjustment on the single bag rule. That’s painting with a large brush. What I would want to do is use a tiny front arca bag and a small rear bag. Both together are 1/2 the size of a game changer. A 8lb bag is not practical and using a “1 bag” rule forces me to be less practical. Make it total volume, not weight or number of bags. That’s how you can limit bags being a factor.

 

[Another Casual]

Another option is to just give everyone the same bag for the stage. Here's the stage, you have this, go. Removes that part of the gear race entirely. Sponsors might not like it.

I'll also say my heaviest rifle is nowhere near 20lbs, even with my can on, but I get that you wouldn't want to have a setup everyone needs one gun for.

A power factor that takes weight into account could be interesting. Lighter calibers have to have lighter rifles and heavier calibers can dial up the weight. You can run a 223 but it's going to have to be very light. Some kind of ratio between recoil energy and rifle weight, but then you're getting back to people needing a different rifle.

If you do one near the front range in CO later this year, I'll give it a go.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I think taking the dependance on gear out of the equation has more to do with creating a mental challenge at the stage. like unknown distance, spot and stalk or some sort of problem solving.

I also see the basic time limit to hit targets a,b,c from positions x,y,z has created the race game and the gear to assist with it. How can i deploy faster and be more stable while going fast.

Which can be fun in and of itself. But it sounds like people are getting bored of the same old.

 

[357Max]

I like where you headed with this.

This is a newb perspective.

Yeah I built a heavy gamer 6GT, but I wouldn't want to shoot it in a match like this.

I want matches I can bring a more practical rifle too & shoot factory ammo. The only reason I built the 6GT barricade bench gun is cause there aren't any matches like this around me. To shoot a match like this I would not want to make my gamer 6GT conform.

I like the emphasis on fundamentals but If the field winds up just a bunch of de-tuned comp guns then It wouldn't be very attractive to me.

If a guy were to show up with a RPR in 6.5 or 308 he'd get pretty discouraged shooting against 6mm @ 20#!

I'd want to bring something else but wouldn't want to be at a huge disadvantage. Hell I've got 3 rifles set up exactly as you described (but all 3 are Braked). They are what I'm shooting to build/learn fundamentals.
The 6.5 ARC rifle would be fun as hell in a match like this.

I like everything except the no break rule. For 2 reasons.
1. Either of my guns that I would want to take to a match like this are factory rifles in 6.5 Creed and weigh 14-16lbs. Without the brake I'd be a pretty big disadvantage to a 6mm comp gun @ 20lbs with the trigger turned up a little and a thread protector.
2. Brakes have an affect on precision with factory ammo. I know what works in my rifles in there current state (braked). I'm not starting over trying to find factory ammo that will shoot well without a break. Not with the current ammo situation.

I would say no tuner brakes or tuners for that matter would be a good idea.

If matches were handicapped to advantage rifles set up for focus on fundamentals it would be tits. Gamers are going to game so why not incentivize them to game towards fundamentals vs the opposite direction.
This would also help attract newer shooters. Hell it would start to redirect/redefine what optimized gear is.

example:
Could handicap by either caliber or power factor.
308 under 18lbs use a break or can over 18 no brake/can.
6.5 Creed under 16lbs get a Brake
6mm under 14 get a brake
20# 6mm no fucking brake.

 

[PlinkIt]

Well the first question / thought that comes to my mind is how to level the playing field that is only based on equipment ....

If you look at golf: they give each player a handicap based on previous events scores to try and balance them out. (This is bad though because I get a better handicap by sucking more frequently) If we look at drag racing they give a certain number of lights or lengths as a handicap (car that should be 12sec car gets x number of lights against the 10sec car)... So bracket racing vs bracket shooting

So if someone were to quantify that a brake was worth X and falling into a weight bracket was worth Y and caliber / power factor was worth Z then it would seem logical that one could come up with a factor that the scores could be multiplied by....

So let's say:
Shooter 1 has a 24lb 6mm braked 4oz trigger game changer etc etc (let's assume we end up with a 60% factor cuz it's a full on comp gun)
Shooter 2 had a 12lb bare muzzle 300 winmag 5lb trigger and a leather sac full of plastic beads (let's assume we end up with a 95% factor cuz it's a straight hunting rifle)

Total match "hits" equate to 100 (for easy number)
Shooter 1 made 85 hits
Shooter 2 made 55 hits

Shooter 1 85x.60=51.00 score
Shooter 2 55x.95=52.25 score

Shooter 2 wins by score with a system that requires more fundamentals than goodies...

If you want people to lean to fundamentals you can adjust factors until the fundamental guys are coming to the top and group will follow

I don't intend to say I have a good system for how to weight each accessory but it would allow anyone to compete with anything they own and be in the game if they are capable with THEIR rifle that they currently own in the configuration they prefer to shoot it in

It would almost require several shooters to shoot various configurations for score so you could weigh the differences of each item on the weight calculation sheet...

Hopefully this makes as much sense in Reading as the idea does in my head

ETA this would also allow the full on game gun guys to get tunnel vision on the highest hits list and let the fundamentals crowd focus on the overall score
Everyone gets to shoot whatever they want for whatever reason they want

 

[Codiekfx400]

Why not let the 223 shoot with the big guns?

 

[lead ƒarmer]

You had me until no suppressor. But that's what I run 100% of the time anyway. Brakes are for bitches lol

 

[Swamppy]

I would definitely shoot this match but it would take a considerable amount of manipulating my rifle to get below 20lbs. I am not a huge fan of running a heavy rifle however, I have tried stripping weights off my rifle to make it lighter. I end up with a rifle that incredibly rear heavy. The lightest I have bene able to achieve is 21.5 to 22lbs and be balanced.

 

[LSX454]

I think it's a great idea and would be less intimidating to newer shooters. To people who aren't match or primarily longer range shooters though, 20lbs is still considered a fairly heavy rifle and a generous max weight... Maybe since the muzzle device restriction seems to be the biggest hang up, just require a much lower max weight or some kind of a point handicap for those that insist on using them. Could even do the same to discourage the gaming of smaller calibers. No matter what the rules will be gamed. The only level way to test shooting skills is by having everyone literally run the same gun somehow, but that's not feasible. It's your match, set the rules how you see fit as it's impossible to please everyone. I bet it'd be very popular as is.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I would definitely shoot this match but it would take a considerable amount of manipulating my rifle to get below 20lbs. I am not a huge fan of running a heavy rifle however, I have tried stripping weights off my rifle to make it lighter. I end up with a rifle that incredibly rear heavy. The lightest I have bene able to achieve is 21.5 to 22lbs and be balanced.

Sounds like you need another rifle.

 

[accurate obsession]

Yes, I would do a match like that.
Don't care about brakes being gone, I view them as a necessary evil, but why eliminate cans?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yes, I would do a match like that.
Don't care about brakes being gone, I view them as a necessary evil, but why eliminate cans?

As stated several times, not everyone has a can. And they do help some with recoil. Its not worth dealing with listening to 25 people complain so 3 can use a can.

Zero muzzle devices leaves zero upper hand for anyone. If I lose the small amount who won’t shoot without a suppressor, it’s not a big deal.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This needs to happen. Especially the no brake part. One adjustment on the single bag rule. That’s painting with a large brush. What I would want to do is use a tiny front arca bag and a small rear bag. Both together are 1/2 the size of a game changer. A 8lb bag is not practical and using a “1 bag” rule forces me to be less practical. Make it total volume, not weight or number of bags. That’s how you can limit bags being a factor.

If it were being 100% practical, it would be a rear bag, tripod, bipod, sling and your pack. That’s about what most anyone carries at work.

And then everything would be shot off a tripod or modified prone. With the occasional rifle tossed on a pack or jacket on top of a car or something. With most everything being off a tripod as there really isn’t much you can’t do with one and is now the most important piece of kit on a working rifle.

That’s what really happens in the real world. But this isn’t that. There are things like mammoth, SH Cup, Team Sniper Challenge, etc etc which already do this.

People also like the current aspect of using a bag on props, so this is a hybrid. Something that allowed them to continue to use the popular strategy while still adding in things that require rock solid fundamentals.

 

[A&8's]

Yes, I would and basically do know, except for I'm braked (no issues yanking it, though) and I carry a small dedicated rear bag along with a schmedium. But, I carried only a Mini-GC all last year. No problem going back to that.


To everyone saying about the suppressor only thing:

1.) Not all of us live in a free state where cans are allowed. Yeah yeah, I know...."Move." I intend to when I retire in another 54 Mondays.

2.) Cost of a can, is sometime not 'in the budget.' Even if it's in your budget, it may not be in the 'families' budget. We're trying to promote growth in the sport with new/younger shooters. I get it, if I lived in a free state, I would have a handful of cans, for various calibers. But, while I'm not wealthy, I'm am at the end of my career with farm paid off and kids raised. However, I have guys come into my shop all the time 'piecing' new equipment together for their rifle build. All the while, they are, maybe 5 years into their career, with a wife, a little one or 2, maybe 3 years into a 15 or 30 year mortgage, etc. Sometimes it takes a year of saving for them to get 1 piece of equipment (scope or chassis/stock price range). Now add $1300 for a can and stamp, that they won't get for a year-but have to pay for up front, that just pushes them back another year before they can "play this game." I get it. I really do. This is NOT a cheap sport. However, not everyone is in my boots with no mortgage and kids raised. I guess what I'm getting at is, I want to get as many new shooters into this sport, especially kids. But, if a parent has to buy TWO cans (one for their rifle and another for the kids rifle) just to play, that probably ain't gonna happen. Mama is gonna say, "Baseball is cheaper and it can be done in the back yard."


Personally, what I'm going to soon implement for the 22 matches I run, is: Any and all gear you want to run is OK. However, EVRYTHING must be carried on your person the entire match. So, if you're man enough to carry (and shoot every stage) with 70lbs of gear on your back for 4 hours. Go for it! Not me. lol I'm going in with a slung rifle, 1 positional bag, ammo, a wrist coach with hard DOPE and an ink pen for stage data. I mean, hell, I don't go squirrel hunting with all that other shit. Yet, to make myself a better hunter is why I started playing this game. My house, my rules.

Just my .02

 

[Swamppy]

Sounds like you need another rifle.

I couldn't agree with you more!!!

 

[JBoomhauer]

Yes, I would and basically do know, except for I'm braked (no issues yanking it, though) and I carry a small dedicated rear bag along with a schmedium. But, I carried only a Mini-GC all last year. No problem going back to that.


To everyone saying about the suppressor only thing:

1.) Not all of us live in a free state where cans are allowed. Yeah yeah, I know...."Move." I intend to when I retire in another 54 Mondays.

2.) Cost of a can, is sometime not 'in the budget.' Even if it's in your budget, it may not be in the 'families' budget. We're trying to promote growth in the sport with new/younger shooters. I get it, if I lived in a free state, I would have a handful of cans, for various calibers. But, while I'm not wealthy, I'm am at the end of my career with farm paid off and kids raised. However, I have guys come into my shop all the time 'piecing' new equipment together for their rifle build. All the while, they are, maybe 5 years into their career, with a wife, a little one or 2, maybe 3 years into a 15 or 30 year mortgage, etc. Sometimes it takes a year of saving for them to get 1 piece of equipment (scope or chassis/stock price range). Now add $1300 for a can and stamp, that they won't get for a year-but have to pay for up front, that just pushes them back another year before they can "play this game." I get it. I really do. This is NOT a cheap sport. However, not everyone is in my boots with no mortgage and kids raised. I guess what I'm getting at is, I want to get as many new shooters into this sport, especially kids. But, if a parent has to buy TWO cans (one for their rifle and another for the kids rifle) just to play, that probably ain't gonna happen. Mama is gonna say, "Baseball is cheaper and it can be done in the back yard."


Personally, what I'm going to soon implement for the 22 matches I run, is: Any and all gear you want to run is OK. However, EVRYTHING must be carried on your person the entire match. So, if you're man enough to carry (and shoot every stage) with 70lbs of gear on your back for 4 hours. Go for it! Not me. lol I'm going in with a slung rifle, 1 positional bag, ammo, a wrist coach with hard DOPE and an ink pen for stage data. I mean, hell, I don't go squirrel hunting with all that other shit. Yet, to make myself a better hunter is why I started playing this game. My house, my rules.

Just my .02

I think the last paragraph is where this needs to go. Have better designed stages or matches.

Bring whatever you would like, but good luck.

If you want to discourage “gamer” rifles write the match so a heavy gun is a disadvantage on a few stages. In the end a well rounded rifle would be desirable.

You could do the same with COF intent. Say 9/10 stages are to be shot as written and 1/10 is a designated gamer stage. Anything goes.

 

[phlegethon]

With most everything being off a tripod as there really isn’t much you can’t do with one and is now the most important piece of kit on a working rifle.

I think it’s odd there aren’t at least a few stages in PRS matches where you shoot directly off a tripod. It would be boring if a lot of them allowed it but the matches I’ve shot almost never do, and it seems like something you’d want to include if it’s a real world skill.