Would you shoot this match?

[msstate56]

So, USPSA says "you can't shoot this stage/course/etc. unless you have a mag larger than 10 rounds?" No, yet, that's, essentially, what you're saying should be done regarding suppressors.

No, feel free to shoot your bare muzzle, but don’t tell people with suppressors they can’t use them.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Lets look at the numbers.

In the past few seasons how many guys are shooting tac? Production?

How does this compare to open?

This is called a clue.

 

[rottenruger]

So, the goal is to test skills and such that used to be tested a lot, and now with bags and rifles being used.....the shooter is being almost removed from the equation.

(I am **NOT** saying current matches are bad. They are fun. Not debating that).

I also want shooters to be able to use their current setup with only a little/easy modification.

So, would you shoot a match with following restrictions:

20lb rifle weight limit (scope and such included)
Only one bag for the entire match (same bag for everything)
8lb bag limit (no larger than pump pillow)
1.5lb minimum trigger weight
No muzzle devices (no cans or brakes)

To explain further, the removal of brakes alleviates the need to set a weight limit like 16lbs. Many shooters only have one comp gun and they can’t get it below 20lbs without major changes or another rifle. The recoil added from no break would take the place of a lower weight restriction.

Too many restrictions. And the problem is, the restrictions seem to bounce ALL OVER THE PLACE from one range to the next, if it is not a national shooting venue.

I got proficient on Bullbags at the behest of one of my precision instructors.......a bullbag up front and a buttbag behind........

Then I went to a match, mostly as an "auditing participant rather than a contender", and they allowed only bipods to level the playing field. To I shot that day just for the fun of it, which it was, and no worries.

But then I started playing with bipods. My first few, discarded, had been bottom mounts and left the rifle too shaky. So I had upgraded to RPRs with handguards that allowed easy attachments, and I attached two-part bipods which gave a LOT more stability........and I haven't gone back to the Bullbag yet. Still use a buttbag, of course.

Never have made it back down the road to that range that required Bipods. Gotta do it, some good guys and good shooters there.

But to answer the question you posed above: I'd participate, but likely as a loser by default. Would have to weigh my weapon, no clue. I'd shoot with only one bag....NOW, the buttbag.....having transitioned to bipods; would have to get my trigger adjusted, pretty sure it's heavier. And would have to remove the brakes and get a shoulder pad (I'm 70 and soft).

And so I repeat: Too many restrictions. And the problem is, the restrictions seem to bounce ALL OVER THE PLACE from one range to the next, if it is not a national shooting venue.

 

[rottenruger]

I WOULD SHOOT ANYTHING.

THAT's my kind of shooter!!!!

 

[rottenruger]

If everyone had a can, no problem.

But a can does mitigate some recoil.

So does a brake.

 

[rottenruger]

Line of the century right there folks.

I don't think it's the line of the century at all..........

But it's definitely the line of this tread!!!

 

[Pete B]

Um..... Was it not just a YES or No question? lol
Shoot it or fucking don't shoot it, the bloke just wanted an indication of interest. Someone is just throwing out an idea, not starting a revolution and demanding survitude.
Regards
Pete

 

[calshipbuilder]

I’m moving to 16# guns to run in Scott’s matches. I can keep my ACC chassis, M24 profile barrel, 56mil scope. Its a pretty reasonable limit. I think one bag is great, but I wouldn’t limit the rifles in any way other than weight.

 

[Alpine 338]

Yeah, I want to run Scotts match, but weighed the rifle I want to use, and it comes in at 16.6-lbs on a bathroom scale. Without my Atlas bipod I can make weight according to the scale. So looking for alternatives. Don't want to buy a plastic Magpul, just to have it brake on me half way through the match.

I found a bipod made in Norway that's 4-oz with the Picatinny rail adapter, but it's $700+. Probably made out of Titanium?
Hard to spend that kind of money without having a sample in hand to au with.

I guess I could order one of the Magnesium XLR chassis. The rifle started off in a XLR Element when they first came out, and while I was waiting on my McMillan A5 to be built.

 

[calshipbuilder]

Yeah, I want to run Scotts match, but weighed the rifle I want to use, and it comes in at 16.6-lbs on a bathroom scale. Without my Atlas bipod I can make weight according to the scale. So looking for alternatives. Don't want to buy a plastic Magpul, just to have it brake on me half way through the match.

I found a bipod made in Norway that's 4-oz with the Picatinny rail adapter, but it's $700+. Probably made out of Titanium?
Hard to spend that kind of money without having a sample in hand to au with.

I guess I could order one of the Magnesium XLR chassis. The rifle started off in a XLR Element when they first came out, and while I was waiting on my McMillan A5 to be built.

I’m running an altlas cal with spike feet. 9 ounces can be solved.

 

[LV Precision]

Yeah, I want to run Scotts match, but weighed the rifle I want to use, and it comes in at 16.6-lbs on a bathroom scale. Without my Atlas bipod I can make weight according to the scale. So looking for alternatives. Don't want to buy a plastic Magpul, just to have it brake on me half way through the match.

I found a bipod made in Norway that's 4-oz with the Picatinny rail adapter, but it's $700+. Probably made out of Titanium?
Hard to spend that kind of money without having a sample in hand to au with.

I guess I could order one of the Magnesium XLR chassis. The rifle started off in a XLR Element when they first came out, and while I was waiting on my McMillan A5 to be built.

Have you seen the new XLR Element 4.0? That will be the new/best hotness for a lightweight chassis on the market. Integrated arca cut and options for weights looks amazing. I normally run an MDT ACC but this looks like a really intriguing option for a lightened chassis.

 

[Nate60x]

Love the intent of the match, 20 pound rifle does not jive with the objective though, yes i would shoot it

 

[1moaoff]

Id shoot it.. may even just grab a 308 for fun.

Heres a few options make a box. Bag or bags must fit and not be inflatable.

Or a overall weight for bags and rifle on the scale.

I would take a brake off to shoot this only challenges being for some guys.
- loads may change for some guys
- tuners?
- power factors instead?

You goofs need to understand rifles and matches are like women and sex.... need a little variety... or do you only go missionary ?


You guys bitching sound exactly like the other threads where people bitch about equipment.

 

[beetroot]

The matches I shoot are more what you guys called field matches, so take my opinion as you please.

Most matches either have restrictions on gear (no tripods, only one bag) or have two separate classes; open class is any equipment goes (unless stage rules say otherwise) and practical class which allows only one small bag (no game changers allowed).
Both classes shoot same CoF but open class often has less time allowed, which usually is when using a tripod gives a distinct advantage.

Most shooters are happy with the two classes, means sone guys can go the gamer route and others more simplified.
Funny thing is the practical class guys on average shoot better than the open and usually the scores in practical class are higher than open.

I prefer a more practical style match and prefer shooting of natural props or props that prefer you to think rather than just slapping your 20lb rifle and bag on the same for every single stage.

I'd happily shoot the match layed out, would be annoying to remove suppressor but rezoing doesn't take much effort before a match.

 

[Gleedus]

I like @Dthomas3523 Idea. As a match director myself I understand the complexity of creating a safe stage that FORCES guys to eliminate gear. The last match I hosted was this past saturday. I created 2 stages specifically to screw up tripod use still a few guys were able to make tripods work.
We run 120 sec stages so there are a lot of movement and 1 or 2 shot engagements from 1 position. Mostly shot per engagment 10-12 shot total stages.

Sounds great right? Push time, fast pace, lots of mental work (no patterns), positions difficult to deploy much gear, should eliminate the gear?
I run a 20+ lb rifle non-issue for me as I am physical fit and strong. I dont need a tripod anyway so that didnt effect me or the rest of the top 10 guys.
I'll tell you what it did do... new shooters timed out 8 or 9 out of 10 stages a number of times only getting half of their shots off.... targets shot out of order to much mentally for the new guys. The top 10? Scored the same as usual...
It made a bigger difference between the top guys and mid pack by 12%...

So to all you guys saying the MD just has to create stages that FORCE guys to use less gear AND have it work for the new shooter... get out and do it yourself! Then let the rest of us know how you designed your stages to do that.

The harder you push guys the more you will see how good the top guys can actually shoot...

On a side note most guys really enjoyed the match regardless of the difficulty and found the mental challanges and fast paced variety fun. I ran large target sizes and nothing to long distance hoping to give new guys impacts.

Good luck.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Speaking of time. Would there be a downside to making time the scoring factor? How fast can you complete the stage? misses could be a time penalty.

I'm one of those guys that times out, a lot. Rushing through the first ones and end up not being able to shoot the last couple targets on a stage because times up. Im not really concerned about score at this point but it would be nice to be able to have the same experience as the better guys and shoot all the targets.

I think forcing the bottom guys into the same fast paced time restrictions as the top ones does the bottom guys a disservice and makes them feel discouraged and like they got their asses handed to them. Nobody likes feeling like that. Maybe they think "I'll go practice and come back when Im better" that never happens and they just never return.

 

[Inline6]

The best way to get good at shooting matches is shooting more matches.

You can only do so much "practicing". The additional pressure from extra eyes on you. Worried about messing up and additional pressure of making sure you don't break safety rules. That pressure is very hard to duplicate in "practice".

Shoot your game and learn, as long as you do that and make a few good friends along the way. Are you actually loosing? YMMV

 

[Gleedus]

Better or worse scores because of time will make the gap even bigger.
We actually had a little laugh about it before the match.
We have 120 second stages lets say you have the option of shooting it at 100 and that gives you a extra point. All the top guys typically are running in the high 90s so that would be a gimme point.

The negative points if you miss is interesting but I'm concerned that it would do the same thing. Remember the top guy is likely only dropping 10% of his shots so he would lose say 10-15 points per day with negative scoring.
The mid pack guy who gets off 75 percent of his shots and has a 50% of top finish now would drop 25-30 points more with negative scoring.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I dont really feel pressure of eyes on me or even time. I just shoot the COF as fast as I can safely. That usually results in me timing out and only shooting at roughly 70% of targets. Now I just paid $$ and drove 4hrs to shoot 70% of a match. timing out killed it for me. I'll go shoot and have fun, hang out with good people but at that point, thats all it is.

Even if my standing stayed the same or slightly dropped but I got to shoot 100% of the targets and COF. Overall experience would be better. Lets be real the majority of guys arent competing for top spots so for them its not really a competition its an experience. The top guys will be up there regardless. Timing out is an experience penalty. Plus if I could take an extra second to really focus on the shots or position my hit ratio would improve. Now if im shooting at more targets and hitting more of the targets I shoot at. Win/win.

Is time a metric for skill?

 

[Alpine 338]

...I ran large target sizes and nothing to long distance hoping to give new guys impacts.

I guess I'm in a different mindset. I believe if you make targets big and close, and decrease time limits, you're just forcing people into poor habits, like trigger slapping, etc. This does nothing to instill good marksmanship.

If you put targets out further and/or make them smaller, and have reasonable time limits, people learn how to shoot accurately. They learn how to read the wind, learn to observe the environment they're shooting in, etc.

I guess some people prefer a USPSA speed race over true marksmanship?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I guess some people prefer a USPSA speed race over true marksmanship?

Hold up just one second. You do realize that all of the points on USPSA target are in a relatively small scoring zone right? No one wins a match by being blazing fast and only marginally accurate.

 

[Alpine 338]

Hold up just one second. You do realize that all of the points on USPSA target are in a relatively small scoring zone right? No one wins a match by being blazing fast and only marginally accurate.

Yes, I used to shoot USPSA years ago. However, in Precision Rifle, steel targets don't have zones, nor do they offer extra for increased power factor such as shooting a 40S&W, 10mm, or 45ACP vs 9mm or 38 Super.

Tell me how much marksmanship is there engaging a full size steel IPSC target at 300-yards with a rifle that's capable of sub-MOA accuracy?

 

[Gleedus]

I think this shows exactly why MDs HAVE to make rules to limit gear.
I absolutely agree with @Alpine 338 If I make a match that forces people to use less gear by complex stages and or timing out the newer guys will develop bad habits.

I just did it as a test and I track all the match results as well for numerous matches.
Pushing time the 10% vs mid spread gets bigger.
Windy match same thing.
Long range same thing.
Prone pulls them closer together.

I do a lot of big and small target at each distance so the better guys have to hit the small stuff to stay in the lead as well. I also dont let the far targets get to big.
3 mpr wide plates seems to put average competitor hits at 50%

Now all I do is rimfire. In Ontario we have almost no access to do CF matches.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Tell me how much marksmanship is there engaging a full size steel IPSC target at 300-yards with a rifle that's capable of sub-MOA accuracy?

Almost zero.
I'm not arguing with you, I just had to point out that USPSA isn't the brainless hosing that it appears to be, since most people believe that all you have to do is hit a giant cardboard silhouette at 5 yards.

 

[beetroot]

I like @Dthomas3523 Idea. As a match director myself I understand the complexity of creating a safe stage that FORCES guys to eliminate gear. The last match I hosted was this past saturday. I created 2 stages specifically to screw up tripod use still a few guys were able to make tripods work.
We run 120 sec stages so there are a lot of movement and 1 or 2 shot engagements from 1 position. Mostly shot per engagment 10-12 shot total stages.

Sounds great right? Push time, fast pace, lots of mental work (no patterns), positions difficult to deploy much gear, should eliminate the gear?
I run a 20+ lb rifle non-issue for me as I am physical fit and strong. I dont need a tripod anyway so that didnt effect me or the rest of the top 10 guys.
I'll tell you what it did do... new shooters timed out 8 or 9 out of 10 stages a number of times only getting half of their shots off.... targets shot out of order to much mentally for the new guys. The top 10? Scored the same as usual...
It made a bigger difference between the top guys and mid pack by 12%...

So to all you guys saying the MD just has to create stages that FORCE guys to use less gear AND have it work for the new shooter... get out and do it yourself! Then let the rest of us know how you designed your stages to do that.

The harder you push guys the more you will see how good the top guys can actually shoot...

On a side note most guys really enjoyed the match regardless of the difficulty and found the mental challanges and fast paced variety fun. I ran large target sizes and nothing to long distance hoping to give new guys impacts.

Good luck.

What sort of hit percentages are guys getting at most matches?

The matches I shoot are intentionally set up to be tough, the top guys will typically only get 70% of the total score possible and most guys more around 50%, some very tight time limits, targets worth negative points, and difficult/awkward stage designs leads to this.
If anyone were to complain to the MD about this it wouldn't go so well for them

I get the appeal to try and reduce the gear race and gaming the system type attitudes, everything I've ever seen suggests that the top guys will always be at the top regardless of what rules are in place and those gaming all the gear to try get ahead will never get there.

Thus just put in what ever rules you want to suit what sort of match you want to run;
the top guys will do well regardless, middle of the pack guys will do better or worse depending on stage design, and some guys will flop big time as they are either not mentally prepared for the stage rules, or have not practiced with their gear enough.

 

[Gleedus]

What sort of hit percentages are guys getting at most matches?

The matches I shoot are intentionally set up to be tough, the top guys will typically only get 70% of the total score possible and most guys more around 50%, some very tight time limits, targets worth negative points, and difficult/awkward stage designs leads to this.
If anyone were to complain to the MD about this it wouldn't go so well for them

I get the appeal to try and reduce the gear race and gaming the system type attitudes, everything I've ever seen suggests that the top guys will always be at the top regardless of what rules are in place and those gaming all the gear to try get ahead will never get there.

Thus just put in what ever rules you want to suit what sort of match you want to run;
the top guys will do well regardless, middle of the pack guys will do better or worse depending on stage design, and some guys will flop big time as they are either not mentally prepared for the stage rules, or have not practiced with their gear enough.

The goal is to create a match that suits the average guy. I want the match average to be just over 50% hit we often have over 10% new shooters as things are exploding up here. Basically right now we have 5-6 guys that will always take the top. People have good and bad matches but top 3 is going to be out of only 6-8 guys. The top 3 there is often a 10 point gap to the rest then fairly consistent from there down.

Low wind top guy will be in the 90s for sure. Tricky wind mid 80s

If we had no new guys the average would go up quite a bit. Overall the year average hit% is going up every year.

 

[thejeep]

If it’s within 2 hours of my house and I don’t have priors.

 

[Bull45cal]

Yes, I would and basically do know, except for I'm braked (no issues yanking it, though) and I carry a small dedicated rear bag along with a schmedium. But, I carried only a Mini-GC all last year. No problem going back to that.


To everyone saying about the suppressor only thing:

1.) Not all of us live in a free state where cans are allowed. Yeah yeah, I know...."Move." I intend to when I retire in another 54 Mondays.

2.) Cost of a can, is sometime not 'in the budget.' Even if it's in your budget, it may not be in the 'families' budget. We're trying to promote growth in the sport with new/younger shooters. I get it, if I lived in a free state, I would have a handful of cans, for various calibers. But, while I'm not wealthy, I'm am at the end of my career with farm paid off and kids raised. However, I have guys come into my shop all the time 'piecing' new equipment together for their rifle build. All the while, they are, maybe 5 years into their career, with a wife, a little one or 2, maybe 3 years into a 15 or 30 year mortgage, etc. Sometimes it takes a year of saving for them to get 1 piece of equipment (scope or chassis/stock price range). Now add $1300 for a can and stamp, that they won't get for a year-but have to pay for up front, that just pushes them back another year before they can "play this game." I get it. I really do. This is NOT a cheap sport. However, not everyone is in my boots with no mortgage and kids raised. I guess what I'm getting at is, I want to get as many new shooters into this sport, especially kids. But, if a parent has to buy TWO cans (one for their rifle and another for the kids rifle) just to play, that probably ain't gonna happen. Mama is gonna say, "Baseball is cheaper and it can be done in the back yard."


Personally, what I'm going to soon implement for the 22 matches I run, is: Any and all gear you want to run is OK. However, EVRYTHING must be carried on your person the entire match. So, if you're man enough to carry (and shoot every stage) with 70lbs of gear on your back for 4 hours. Go for it! Not me. lol I'm going in with a slung rifle, 1 positional bag, ammo, a wrist coach with hard DOPE and an ink pen for stage data. I mean, hell, I don't go squirrel hunting with all that other shit. Yet, to make myself a better hunter is why I started playing this game. My house, my rules.

Just my .02

Bam, I couldn't have said it better myself (except I'm the guy piecing together things and building my on gear, cause I've got a baby on the way, just paid off the property, and now need to build a house for momma and the baby). I host a few matches per/year, and I use the shoot what you brought, but you've got to carry it all day rule. I shot a 22LR (NRL 22X style) match recently, with a 27 year old Marlin model 60 that has over 40,000 rounds through her. Added a cheap FFP scope that doesn't track true (so I just use hold over on the christmas tree reticle), and a bipod with barricade stop on the back. Bipod with barricade stop (piece of aluminum angle) $30. Rail and QD for the bipod $30. FFP Scope $130. Marlin Model 60 $110 (in 1994). Oh, and my $25 CAA adjustable cheekpiece from an AR-15. So total cost is $325. I placed 2nd beating guys with a couple thousand dollars in their guns and scopes. Oh, I almost forgot, I run a 10"x10"x2" bean bag my Mom sewed together for me, with beads she used to make my stuffed animals when I was a kid. I'm not tooting my own horn, because I'm not a great shooter, but it doesn't take thousands of dollars of gear to compete if the Match Director thinks about how he can even the playing field. I'm a real fan of all "practical" equipment matches. Let people innovate. I come up with multi-purpose gear, because I can't afford to buy much. I build my own gear, because I can barely afford to feed my guns. Don't handicap me with too many restrictions (my paycheck does that enough), and don't make it too hard for everyone to understand the rules.

 

[Bull45cal]

The matches I shoot are more what you guys called field matches, so take my opinion as you please.

Most matches either have restrictions on gear (no tripods, only one bag) or have two separate classes; open class is any equipment goes (unless stage rules say otherwise) and practical class which allows only one small bag (no game changers allowed).
Both classes shoot same CoF but open class often has less time allowed, which usually is when using a tripod gives a distinct advantage.

Most shooters are happy with the two classes, means sone guys can go the gamer route and others more simplified.
Funny thing is the practical class guys on average shoot better than the open and usually the scores in practical class are higher than open.

I prefer a more practical style match and prefer shooting of natural props or props that prefer you to think rather than just slapping your 20lb rifle and bag on the same for every single stage.

I'd happily shoot the match layed out, would be annoying to remove suppressor but rezoing doesn't take much effort before a match.

Very good points.

 

[Remman13]

I would

 

[Magnitude]

No

 

[DrBoz]

So, the goal is to test skills and such that used to be tested a lot, and now with bags and rifles being used.....the shooter is being almost removed from the equation.

(I am **NOT** saying current matches are bad. They are fun. Not debating that).

I also want shooters to be able to use their current setup with only a little/easy modification.

So, would you shoot a match with following restrictions:

20lb rifle weight limit (scope and such included)
Only one bag for the entire match (same bag for everything)
8lb bag limit (no larger than pump pillow)
1.5lb minimum trigger weight
No muzzle devices (no cans or brakes)

To explain further, the removal of brakes alleviates the need to set a weight limit like 16lbs. Many shooters only have one comp gun and they can’t get it below 20lbs without major changes or another rifle. The recoil added from no break would take the place of a lower weight restriction.

I would give that a go!

 

[Krob95]

I think this would be fun. My 22GT is too heavy even with out the can. But my 6BRA would make weight just fine as kitted out with no muzzle device. It would be a fun and challenging match and rely more on fundamentals as opposed to slapping a trigger and still staying on target.

 

[iceng]

I'd do it just to see how a match is with no muzzle blasts when your a RO or squad mum.

Isn't there a production style class in my at events ?

 

[lte82]

I guess I'm in a different mindset. I believe if you make targets big and close, and decrease time limits, you're just forcing people into poor habits, like trigger slapping, etc. This does nothing to instill good marksmanship.

If you put targets out further and/or make them smaller, and have reasonable time limits, people learn how to shoot accurately. They learn how to read the wind, learn to observe the environment they're shooting in, etc.

I guess some people prefer a USPSA speed race over true marksmanship?

I think you need a mix of small targets and big targets. Put the tiny targets inside 400 yards that force you to hold hard and break good shots from hard positions, and save the larger targets for long range where you are trying to test people’s ability to read wind and spot shots. Big targets up close test nothing. Small targets at distance is a test of luck.