Rifle Scopes WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

[sobrbiker883]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">But they go great together in every thread!</span> My apologies to Ratbert and EH, I was thinking of something else.....

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But they go great together in every thread!</div></div>

I'm pretty sure this thread is the first time I've ever replied to Ratbert. However, if Ratbert is tall, blonde, buxom, female and has lots of bi-curious hot female friends then I'd be delighted to accompany Rat on any thread...

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

My mistake then....

 

[ewoaf]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

the hide sure influenced my first real scope purchase. I never had to post a thread about it though... there's plenty of old threads to read and a new one every week, sometimes twice. I read on this site for about a year before making a decision.

In case any one is wondering to the conclusion that i came up with...







get ready for it....






ready?......








I chose to watch the for sale threads until I saw a scope that fit my criteria. which was FFP mil/mil for at/under $1800

It turned out to be a USO that just happens to be set up about the way that it would be, had I ordered it straight from Brea.

Now I wouldn't call myself a USO cheerleader now, however I would be glad to talk them up as I have actual experience with one, but not with anything else in that caliber. I'm sure that it's pretty hard to go wrong in the uso/ph/s&b/etc price range.


ps. The glass doesnt seem "super", but i dont care because i dont make hits with the clarity.

 

[858]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

This thread is what disgusts me about this place. Its a discussion forum, quit getting all butt hurt about topics you don't like...just don't read the shit.

For fucks sake...

 

[Sleeper]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

If it tracks correctly, is durable, and I can see the target, who gives two shits about the rest.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But they go great together in every thread!</div></div>

I'm pretty sure this thread is the first time I've ever replied to Ratbert. However, if Ratbert is tall, blonde, buxom, female and has lots of bi-curious hot female friends then I'd be delighted to accompany Rat on any thread...</div></div>

I was a bit confused by sobrbiker's comment myself. But in any case, I'm fairly tall, blond, and got a nice firm set of man-titties. Unfortunately, I'm married and one of the few conditions my wife made prior to our wedding was that my chance to declare gay passed when I put on that ring. So I'll just have to haunt your dreams and fantasies, big guy.

 

[magyarbetyar]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

This thread brings a movie quote to mind. Its from the movie Ronin.

Dialogue between Robert DeNiro and Sean Beans characters.


<span style="font-style: italic">What do you use, weapons-wise?
- Hmm ?
- Weapons.
- l'm a... l'm a weapons man.
- Weapons man.
- Yeah.
- Okay.
- They tend to settle the argument. So what do you favour ?
- Well, you know. lt's a toolbox. You put the tools in for the job.
- What ?
- You know, l actually favour the old 1911.
- . . Old gun.
- lt served my country well. A long time.
- Your country! Not done too well, have you, last few wars ?
- Perhaps not, but at least we don't go around whining about it.</span>

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

Ease up Francis, ain't noone getting butt hurt.

Maybe I should have just posted that I feel its really about time all the online operators should start asking some direct questions about gear that other people may have experience with instead of starting bullshit "this vs that" (read-grownup my dad could kick your dad's ass) threads.

It is a discussion forum, and there is plenty of info available if people are willing to look instead of asking others to spell it out for them and make their decisions for them. Decide what kind of shooting you do (if you do), what gear has features that fit your anticipated needs, and buy it, train with it and use it!
I watched a member place OK in a match this year with a Bushnell 3200 when his (was it S&B, gasp!?) scope went down. He didn't have to twitter anyone to see how to transition to a different setup, he just mounted a scope and made the transition on the fly.
Understand how optics work and shoot! Get what you can and shoot!

And for fuck's sake 858 if you feel that strongly about it, quit getting butt hurt about topics you don't like...just don't read the shit (now where have I heard that before?)!

Sorry if the thread disgusts you so about this place, get some PrepH pads and get over your bad self.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

Ratbert, Graham, and EventHorizon, you guys are on fire! Keep it up, this is why I hang out here, and to look at the cool pictures.

 

[Mike]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> People want Gucci but not to wear and only if it looks better than Dolce & Gabbana. </div></div>

I don't like Gucci, Fila, Louie or Fendi
Those are fads and I ain't trendy

 

[paulo_santos]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

Instead of the typical THIS vs THAT, guys would be better off learning about each one and picking the one that best fits their needs. It isn't about which one is better, it is which one is better for you. And the only person that can answer that is you, not some random guy on the Internet.

 

[blazinpixels]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It's a friggin scope, who cares what it cost, if you like it and it works for you, leave it at that... </div></div>

If you like it and it works for you...

I dont know much about all this and I am still learning I admit...

But its not just a friggin scope and it does matter what it costs... In my spending on this crazy ass hobby lol, the more money spent means a better time shooting...

I have purchased over 4grand worth in scopes as it is and I try to save money or spend a tad bit more and it always bits me in the ass. The more money you can put towards a scope the better. I dont care if its on a .22 rifle or a bigger round. You get what you pay for.

I am not refering to anytype of power either because that is just a whole other story.

But in my opinion and trial and error we should be looking at what we can get for our dollar and not trying to penny pinch. I wrecked a few scopes already trying to save money and mounting a weak scope to a .308 and its just costed and costed...

just my two cents on that quote

 

[lightman]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

Sobrbiker,I agree with what your saying,just never put it in words.I'm more interested in wheather a product does its job,and any problems it has in doing so.I ignore most comments based on opinions like "the best is",I would rather have solid info,like does it work or not,or how well or how poor.Gotta admit,i've got lots of laughs from some of the "this vs that" threads.All said,theres lots of good info on The Hide,and I'm happy to be here.Merry Christmas,everybody! Pete

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads?

I posted a thread on USO vs Premier. I knew I wanted something that currently my NF wasn't giving me. I had narrowed it down to these two makers. From there I looked through and used both makers that were on buddies rifles. Now I could have made my decision from there but being the thorough guy I am I consulted the opinion of hide members.

There is an ancient proverb that says that 'he that is walking with wise persons will become wise...' Asking for an experienced persons opinion on which scope they think would be better suited for our particular application is a smart decision in my mind.

Inexperienced people ask their rifle builders all the time about certain features they should or should not go with because they trust their experience.

I think what people mean is 'which of these 2 scopes would be better for said intended purpose'. But it gets interpreted as 'which one is the best'. I think people make these posts because they're on the fence that's all.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

There is an ancient proverb that says that 'he that is walking with wise persons will become wise...' Asking for an experienced persons opinion on which scope they think would be better suited for our particular application is a smart decision in my mind.

Inexperienced people ask their rifle builders all the time about certain features they should or should not go with because they trust their experience.

I think what people mean is 'which of these 2 scopes would be better for said intended purpose'. But it gets interpreted as 'which one is the best'. I think people make these posts because they're on the fence that's all.

</div></div>

Clearly it has been proven that people <span style="font-weight: bold">"don't"</span> know what <span style="text-decoration: underline">their </span> intended purpose is, and because of their own lack of understanding they simply ask, "which is the best". In many posters opinions this relieves them from defining a purpose, because they really don't know.

Too many feel that spending more buys them the best, or that a scopes' image is enough to justify qualifying it as the best. It is true, that, of the top brands, spending more money going to get you a better product over, say a $1000 scope from Leupold. However, there are exceptions, take the new Super Sniper scopes from SWFA. They are easily $400 less in most cases than a comparative Leupold, but in my option, they are much better scope, and in every way. So, money isn't the deciding factor, the overall quality is.

As well, some people don't know the difference between a wise man, and a wealthy man. Owning a scope does not mean you understand or know how to use the scope. If ownership was a benchmark for excellence there would be a lot more world class shooters on this site, as base on my own demographic survey of this site, a lot of the active users are in the upper middle class. We see people all the time with the best kit, most expensive glass on top of a winning chambering, who have been "Shooting" since they were 8 years old who don't understand the first thing about shooting. They never learned the proper fundamentals, and simply believe spending more makes them better. That is a terrible message to send out and unfortunately many don't understand how to filter this message because they don't know what they want, they simply see an impressive collection.

There is more too it than mistaking the phrasing.., you have to understand the underlying reasoning.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

I would agree that many new posters do not know what they want and some look to the more experienced to tell them. I shot a factory SPS Tactical with a Bushnell Elite 3200 for a long time. I agree that too many people spend money on gear instead of time behind the trigger. That setup worked flawlessly for me for a long time. Some of my family cringe when they ask how much I spent on certain pieces of my current gear. The sad thing is that then they think they need a $6000 setup to do the same thing. They don't, I didn't. I think I see your point. I still wouldn't say the 3200 is better than a NF

 

[Rob01]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As well, some people don't know the difference between a wise man, and a wealthy man. Owning a scope does not mean you understand or know how to use the scope. If ownership was a benchmark for excellence there would be a lot more world class shooters on this site, as base on my own demographic survey of this site, a lot of the active users are in the upper middle class. We see people all the time with the best kit, most expensive glass on top of a winning chambering, who have been "Shooting" since they were 8 years old who don't understand the first thing about shooting. They never learned the proper fundamentals, and simply believe spending more makes them better. That is a terrible message to send out and unfortunately many don't understand how to filter this message because they don't know what they want, they simply see an impressive collection.

</div></div>

See it all the time. People show up with AIAWs or top customs with an S&B or other top scope on it sporting every bit of expensive gear there is and come in almost dead last. They spent more time figuring out what to buy and buying their gear than using it.

The old saying "Some people have more money than sense" holds true here as much as anyplace. We have all done it. Buying expensive gear doesn't mean that you will shoot better. Just means you have great gear. It's up to you to learn how to use it well. Buy the gear that works for you and get out and use it. Learn to use it well no matter if it's a Savage with Falcon Menace or GAP and a NF.

 

[Magnumdood]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Somewhat like martial arts training. Some guys can afford the "gee-whiz" hand pads, foot pads, shin gaurds...ad infinitum. Some make the mistake of assuming that new gear is gonna help them at all in sparring and in matches.

Some guys borrow equipment and train like a devil with it.

Those old, cracked hand pads and foot pads hurt as much or more than the crackerjack gear the more wealthy competitors use.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Your making the assumption that everyone thinks pricier is better. That's not the case. When I bought my premier I wanted something that could cover as many activities as possible. It was only after that I 'got real' with what I would be able to do that I decided I didn't need a FFP scope and for me the premiers a bit too large. Hence why I'm off loading mine. Also consider the 'buy once cry once' viewpoint espoused. Well - which 'one' will lead to the A vs B.

Maybe if there's any interest amongst those who have the knowledge and inclination there could be a post about how to select scope characteristics to activities.

All that aside, if anyone thinks the desire to compare A to B will go away is lacking an understanding of basic human nature. Ours is not a culture of contentment.

 

[SWFA]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> .....
Too many feel that spending more buys them the best, or that a scopes' image is enough to justify qualifying it as the best. It is true, that, of the top brands, spending more money going to get you a better product over, say a $1000 scope from Leupold. However, there are exceptions, take the new Super Sniper scopes from SWFA. They are easily $400 less in most cases than a comparative Leupold, but in my option, they are much better scope, and in every way. So, money isn't the deciding factor, the overall quality is.

As well, some people don't know the difference between a wise man, and a wealthy man...... </div></div>

Amen brother!

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Again - the facet of quality is best expressed in a comparative context. Two scopes can have the same features but it's quality that will seperate them. Hence the need for comparisions when first hand experience with all alternatives isn't an option.

 

[shane45]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

"See it all the time. People show up with AIAWs or top customs with an S&B or other top scope on it sporting every bit of expensive gear there is and come in almost dead last. They spent more time figuring out what to buy and buying their gear than using it."

Hey I resemble that remark!!!

Money I have, time I dont and I cant buy any. I think there is a group like me that do buy based on those that we know and respect with the thought process being have room to grow into your equipment. I have followed this philosophy in just about everything I do and it has always served me well because I never give up until I am proficient at whatever I engage in. So if I had to go shoot a comp tomorrow with my S&B topped AIAW Im sure the bottom of the pack would be my outcome. BUT when time permits and I get to go to rifles only, my equipment will be the least of my worries. When I get ample experience I will be able to recognise the benefits of the equipment I now have a good deal of time with. Ill always know its me, not the equiment. With all that being said I care not what anyone thinks about what I put on my rifles. I cant afford another S&B so likely a SS10X HD is going on my GAP 260 because I want to shoot!!!

For what its worth here is my optic road map that I personally used based on discretionary funds available and hide review. I have zero complaints. They all served me well for my needs at the time and frankly I lost very very little money on a few and none on most.

Bushnell Elite 10X
SWFA Super Sniper (Let it go to help a fellow hide member that needed it for upcoming train up.)
Nikon Tactical
USO SN3 Canadian Mil/Mil (Id still have this one if I didnt let myself get talked out of it)
S&B 4X16 Single Turn Prem Ret conversion Mil/Mil

 

[1911.it]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

WTF?!? S&B 4-16x50 PMII and couldn't be happier. Many other fine choices out there so to each his own. WTF? Indeed.

 

[knockemdown]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Maybe could it be that some those who've been labeled as "having more money than sense" are in fact, quite sensible? Follow me through this scenario here...

A casual shooter has made a contemplated decision to pursue this sport in earnest. Shooting is not his 'hobby of the month', but one that he wants to take seriously, hence his contemplation and decision to jump in with both feet. This shooter has already learned that the 'buy once/cry once' mentality works for him, so goes ahead and orders a custom rifle and top notch glass for it. He already reloads, so with a new set of dies, + brass/bullets, he's on the way...

NOW, instead of buying an average rifle and mounting a possibly less than reliable optic on it, he's got top notch gear right from the get go. That means less time on SH Classifieds buying & selling scopes & rifles (usually for a loss each time) and more time focusing on learning with & enjoying shooting his quality gear...

TRUE, the initial investment was rather large, but after comtemplating the benefit of owning & learning on quality gear, and not losing money and hassling with buying/selling to upgrade, isn't this shooter is better off in the long run?

TRUE, this shooter may show up at his first match with his tricked out stick and finish dead last. All the better, I say, that he shouldn't put the blame on his gear, but rather himself. That should indeed light a fire under his rear & sooner or later that fella just might get a handle on his stick and start shooting well with it in matches. But then you guys won't have anything to make fun of anymore about guys like that having 'more money than sense'.

I'm just sayin'...

 

[Rob01]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

First off it wasn't a blanket statement or making fun of people. If you have been around this site long enough you know I will help anyone I can with anything I can no matter who it is so making fun of people isn't my thing. It was an observation of shooting alot of matches. It said "some people", not all. And your scenario might work also but only sometimes as sometimes what I said about more money than sense is true also.

My point was to learn to shoot the gear you have and spend more time at the range than on the internet searching for the next best thing in the gear world or buying the best and then leaving it in the safe and thinking that just because you have the best you will shoot the best. Yes having good gear helps but you need to know how to use it. If the person in your example did what he did then I have no problems and wouldn't make fun of him for anything. He just bought the best the first time and wants to learn to shoot it. I have seen people like this over the years and watched them go from the bottom of the pack and work their way up from practice and hard work but I have also seen the ones with more money than sense never learn the lesson of practice.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

I did my best to lead this thread off into the desert to die, and yet...

 

[knockemdown]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Rob, I know and appreciate how helpful you are here. I wasn't singling you out by replying to your post, but rather responding to that smaller topic within this topic...

I agree that some people indeed do have more money than sense but was pointing out a possible exception, for conversation. I'm at least sensible enough to know that ya can't buy bullet placement, therefore in agreement with your sentiments...

Hope to meet you at a match someday. I might just be that guy in last place...

 

[gugubica]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

"this vs. that" threads don't bother me as much as some of the others.

This gear is expencive.

Most people don't have the ability or funds to find out which is better.

Most do not understand that they are all good and it will come down to personal prference as to which is best suited for them.

They just want valued expert opinions on where they should spend their money.

That does not bother me, I understand.

What does bother me is the fanboy shit that always seems to find its way into these threads. But, we are human, it is unfortunately unavaidable.

The stock responce to any "this vs. that" question really should be "list the exact features YOU want in an optic" but unfortunately, many have not used enough to know what they want.

Such is life.

 

[gugubica]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hope to meet you at a match someday. I might just be that guy in last place...

</div></div>

Hey, hands off, that is MY place to hold! And I won't give it up that easily!

 

[stefan73]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Does anybody here buy a car without learning about it first?
A computer?
A camera?
Do you research your big purchases before you make a expensive purchase?? If not then your probably not the sharpest pencil in the box and I have an awesome scope for sale for you (yes, I am being facetious)!

As a soldier with a wife and two children I am ffffffffaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrr from having a lot of money! So instead of making a terrible mistake and buying some over priced piece of crap only to have to replace it later down the road with more of my hard earned money I would like to only make one expendature!

I think this is only reasonable and responsible since I also plan to use my gear for hunting.

And thank you for being kind enough to offer us fellow shooters advice and your experience. It helps us guys who really don't have the time to invest or money into this sport like we would like.

Very respectfully,
Stefan

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My point was to learn to shoot the gear you have and spend more time at the range than on the internet searching for the next best thing in the gear world or buying the best and then leaving it in the safe and thinking that just because you have the best you will shoot the best.
</div></div>

Amen.

I have no problem, and highly ecourage research. The WTF part comes out in me with regards to the posts that pit one optic against the other (usually the perceived latest and greatest vs a tried and true), with no reference to the person's needs or wants. Usually they come off as a "which scope will get me more chicks for my money" rather than "which scope will fit my needs", and more often than not they turn into a dick measuring contest by brand loyal koolaid chuggers and folks that stand to gain by pushing their product. The really helpful info (drawbacks) is usually withheld because owners are either in denial or too "pot comitted" to tip their hand.

For example, the recent concerns expressed over eye relief forgiveness or unforgiveness of say a PR 5-25 vs a Hensoldt 3-12. Few point out that any scope with an exit pupil getting down to the 2mm range will be unforgiving, and will rather quote a review that states the latter is better. This educates noone.

There is plenty of solid info researchable if one is considering a purchase, at least enough to ask a more intelligent question than "should I get XXX or XXX?"

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anybody here buy a car without learning about it first?
A computer?
A camera?
Do you reaserch your big purchases before you make a expensive purchase?? If not then your probably not the sharpest pencil in the box and I have an awesome scope for sale for you (yes, I am being facetious)!

As a soldier with a wife and two children I am ffffffffaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrr from having a lot of money! So instead of making a terrible mistake and buying some over priced piece of crap only to have to replace it later down the road with more of my hard earned money I would like to only make one expendature!

I think this is only reasonable and responsible since I also plan to use my gear for hunting.

And thank you for being kind enough to offer us fellow shooters advice and your experience. It helps us guys who really don't have the time to invest or money into this sport like we would like.

Very respectfully,
Stefan
</div></div>

It is unfotunate that there isn't a Consumer Reports rating for scopes, based on features and objective data. Research is definately a valuable tool in considering a purchase, I'm actually all for better research and a more educater researcher.

Thank you for your service.

 

[jasonk]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did my best to lead this thread off into the desert to die, and yet...</div></div>

You're losing your touch, maybe take a little break over the holidays and come back in the new year ready to up your game.

 

[stefan73]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

I'll use me for example. I know about enough about optics to get me into trouble and that is honestly about it (compared to the knowledge on this board). I am currently in Iraq and am trying to research as much as possible. Part of the problem is that the newb (myself included) doesn't know what to ask.

Maybe a sticky that pertains to key/basic points about optics and uses would be beneficial?

Just my .02

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Stefan, at your stage of the game I'd suggest a reliable repeatable scope, either fixed power or FFP, not a top end scope.
Something that works and will allow you to work on your shooting. As your skills and experience progress you will learn what you really want/need and if you buy right the first time, you can get your mnoney back. Anything from a old style SS 10 or 16X on up will do.

 

[stefan73]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

I actualy have an SS and am not all that pleased with it.
Personaly I think the clarity is lacking, I put it on my Serbu BFG-50 because I didn't havve the money for a NXS after buying the rifle.

I am a fan of variable scopes, I would go with fixed if I was doing benchrest again (I was spoiled by some people who showed me what "good" optics look like).
I have a Leupold MR/T and LR/T which are pretty nice. I have another fixed power optic M3A Ultra which I might put on my AR varmiter.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It is unfotunate that there isn't a Consumer Reports rating for scopes, based on features and objective data. Research is definately a valuable tool in considering a purchase, I'm actually all for better research and a more educater researcher.

Thank you for your service. </div></div>

I agree. I think that's what forces those of us that are inexperienced with high end optics to ask guys that have owned them. By way of example: my buddy and I were talking about the top scope makers. He sent emails to all the top scope makers and asked them what their failure rates were. S&B were the only ones that sent a prompt and direct reply of .07%. The only others that replied were generic emails that didn't give any specifics.

You can look at detailed consumer reports on cars and cameras but the major scope manufacturers seem pretty tight lipped about their scope problems. But then again you don't get no questions asked lifetime warranties on cars and cameras either.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anybody here buy a car without learning about it first?
A computer?
A camera?
Do you research your big purchases before you make a expensive purchase?? If not then your probably not the sharpest pencil in the box and I have an awesome scope for sale for you (yes, I am being facetious)!

As a soldier with a wife and two children I am ffffffffaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrr from having a lot of money! So instead of making a terrible mistake and buying some over priced piece of crap only to have to replace it later down the road with more of my hard earned money I would like to only make one expendature!

I think this is only reasonable and responsible since I also plan to use my gear for hunting.

And thank you for being kind enough to offer us fellow shooters advice and your experience. It helps us guys who really don't have the time to invest or money into this sport like we would like.

</div></div>

This wasn't a rant again gaining information or researching a scope. The "this vs that" thread is in fact the opposite of gaining information and research. It's creating a false dichotomy in the hopes that someone else will make the decision for you.

Yes, I research cars extensively before purchasing one. But I'd never base my decision on the results of starting a "Toyota Sienna vs Honda Odessy" thread.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did my best to lead this thread off into the desert to die, and yet...</div></div>

You're losing your touch, maybe take a little break over the holidays and come back in the new year ready to up your game.</div></div>

I guess I'm just not as repellent as I used to be. They say raw talent can only take you so far. Maybe I need a coach...

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The "this vs that" thread is...creating a false dichotomy in the hopes that someone else will make the decision for you. </div></div>

Again, an assumption on someone else's motive as to why they value A vs B. Did you ask anyone why they wanted such a thread? Did you ask what they will ultimately use the outcome of the thread for? No. You assumed people wanted to be told what to get.

In any case, I found what I needed in the article by Zak Smith and especially useful was his section on comparing the best scopes for long range shooting. Did he TELL people what to get, no. He compared the best contenders and pointed out their relative weaknesses and strengths against each other AND against the needs of being able to shoot long range. Then he left the final decision to the reader. Now what is so offensive or hard to comprehend about that?

If any of you don't like this vs that thread then don't participate. Your belittling and false assumptions pose a barrier to future threads that others find useful.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

My own fault for getting lured into flogging ol' silver...

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

I think you can spend the money on the best and you will not regret it. You might be like me who buys the best and can't use it. . I would go S&B

 

[hilbillee]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Some of the best advice I have seen given, or maybe the best.
"who cares what it cost, if you like it and it works for you, leave it at that." It goes not only for scopes but everything else as well.

 

[Dagsta]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

I do know this much, you rarely if any seeing any of the top competitors getting involved in the "this vs that" thread. I have seen what they use, and I assure you it's not always the most expensive.

There is one thing for sure, the reason they are at the top is that they know how to use what they have and are never in a race to have the newest most expensive scopes.

As Rob said, get out there and learn to use what works, and when you get that good you may then notice the subtle differences in the top optics.

I am much more concerned about hearing Frank, Jacob, and Lindy say the word "Impact" than what the name on my scope is.

Merry Christmas Hiders!!

 

[BobinNC]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The "this vs that" thread is...creating a false dichotomy in the hopes that someone else will make the decision for you. </div></div>

Again, an assumption on someone else's motive as to why they value A vs B. Did you ask anyone why they wanted such a thread? Did you ask what they will ultimately use the outcome of the thread for? No. You assumed people wanted to be told what to get.

In any case, I found what I needed in the article by Zak Smith and especially useful was his section on comparing the best scopes for long range shooting. Did he TELL people what to get, no. He compared the best contenders and pointed out their relative weaknesses and strengths against each other AND against the needs of being able to shoot long range. Then he left the final decision to the reader. Now what is so offensive or hard to comprehend about that?

If any of you don't like this vs that thread then don't participate. Your belittling and false assumptions pose a barrier to future threads that others find useful.
</div></div>

Event Horizon,

Let me see if I understand your argument:

This is not a "This vs That" thread, but a discussion of the relative merits and value of "This vs That" threads.

Am I right so far????

Then you take the side that such threads are "valuable".

Others however, think they are not valuable, and waste bandwidth, because the Original Posters of "This vs That" do not have requisite experience or knowledge and want someone to make a decision for them.

And you disagree with this conclusion.

So far so good???

Now in your summation you tell us that you in fact did not use a "This vs That" thread in making a optics buying decision, but instead used a article by Zak Smith. Who in that article did not use a "This vs That" argument.....So you found no value, and did not use; something you now say is valuable???

Are you following me now? Or perhaps you may want to rethink your premise, or perhaps restate it. Maybe.....

 

[SnkBit]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

Wow, that's a lot of damn reading if you start from page 1!

 

[jasonk]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did my best to lead this thread off into the desert to die, and yet...</div></div>

You're losing your touch, maybe take a little break over the holidays and come back in the new year ready to up your game.</div></div>

I guess I'm just not as repellent as I used to be. They say raw talent can only take you so far. Maybe I need a coach...


</div></div>

We could track down NOBODY for you, he had a "talent" few have ever seen.

 

[shane45]

Re: WTF with all the "this VS that" optics threads

For the record my comments about Rob01's post was NOT a poke at him, more an opportunity to look in the mirror and laugh at myself. I know for a fact I have taken advice from Rob01. I fully admit and have admitted to chasing gear. I sold a GAP338 and a 50BMG to buy the AI because I didnt want to be mediocre with several rifles, I want to be great with 1. Also, I can say that my "Hide" research was conducted over a period of YEARS not months so my decisions were carfully measured. They were also interspersed with my own actual experience and wants, not a sole scource in the decision making process.

I think the point I was making was simply that the hide has helped me infinitely on my quest, even the this vs that threads. Its easy to ignore what you dont like. Read enough and it becomes very easy to tell fan from experienced user with good intel.