Hi Guys, Im having some minor issiues on the XL650, when loading 9mm Luger I get lot of bullets not fitting the case gauge, Im using once fired winchester brass that I pre clean in a wet tumbler with stainless steel pins and some lemi shine. I then place all into a dehumidifier to dry. I fill the case feeder and before I start to load I run some dummy loads so I can adjust if required. When running I find that out of 100 bullets 10/20 dont fit my wilson case gauge and Im constatly readjusting the seating die. If this has been discussed can somebody point me t the thread or if you have some information you can share.
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XL650 Loading 9mm Luger
- Thread starter gpap
- Start date
Is the case hanging up because of the bullet or the brass? Possible it could be either or both maybe?
I assume your sizing die is not working loose and you have it properly adjusted down, machine adjusted proper etc. Also assuming case gauge is good to go.
Do the rounds that fail case gauge chamber ok? You may not need them to be minimum spec... though personally I like them to be so they run in EVERYTHING.
Mixed brass can do this as well as brass fired in loose chambers even if it's the same lot of brass. Glocks can do some fun things to it as well without being "loose" by factory standards.
Something like a small base die or a glock bulge remover may help? I wanna say the one I got is called an undersize die.
My Dillon dies do a nice job, but my 1911 is tight. I get the same thing happening if I don't use that undersize die. My glocks and carbines eat all the regular stuff, but not that damned 1911 lol.
Looking at the bullet and you having to move the seating die.... assuming it's not working loose and your bullets are consistent. Is the case mouth belling consistent as well as the crimp at the end? Is the case VERY full of powder causing the bullet to bottom out on powder in some cases or even pushing it back up a little?
Some measurements and photos would be helpful on the good vs problem cartridges. Can you sharpie or soot up a dummy cartridge and maybe see where exactly it hangs up?
I assume your sizing die is not working loose and you have it properly adjusted down, machine adjusted proper etc. Also assuming case gauge is good to go.
Do the rounds that fail case gauge chamber ok? You may not need them to be minimum spec... though personally I like them to be so they run in EVERYTHING.
Mixed brass can do this as well as brass fired in loose chambers even if it's the same lot of brass. Glocks can do some fun things to it as well without being "loose" by factory standards.
Something like a small base die or a glock bulge remover may help? I wanna say the one I got is called an undersize die.
My Dillon dies do a nice job, but my 1911 is tight. I get the same thing happening if I don't use that undersize die. My glocks and carbines eat all the regular stuff, but not that damned 1911 lol.
Looking at the bullet and you having to move the seating die.... assuming it's not working loose and your bullets are consistent. Is the case mouth belling consistent as well as the crimp at the end? Is the case VERY full of powder causing the bullet to bottom out on powder in some cases or even pushing it back up a little?
Some measurements and photos would be helpful on the good vs problem cartridges. Can you sharpie or soot up a dummy cartridge and maybe see where exactly it hangs up?
Ok, I re adjusted my shell plate to have little or no play now after reading your reply,
- Im using a wilson case gauge
- Im also using the dillon sizing die
- The rounds in question fail to chamber but fit in the case gauge flush, but they do not just drop out when I invert the case gauge
- loading 124grs using RN HPCB copper plated bullets
- Using all the same brass (winchester)
- Now the Pistol I own is the Colt 1911, I only recently purchased this and started loading for it, I also tried these in one of my friends 1911 and they also jammed.
- what I did last night was take your advice and tighten the shell plate slightly, so I have little or no rocking motion but still travels smoothly and then re ran the a few rounds that did fall out of gauge in the die and now they fit and dropped out nicely.
- The seating/crimping die specific for the 1911 from double Alpha.
- I will over the weekend give it another go and check 20 rounds one by one and then check to see if the chamber.
- I may also order one of the undersize die you mention.
Will let you know how i go once i get the new die
The easiest fix for what you decribe is just to get a $20 9mm Lee FCD (factory crimp die) and throw that in you last crimp die station, the 9mm FCD is totally different than what you may be used to with a rifle FCD. The 9mm FCD has a carbide ring at the bottom that sort of "re-sizes the body after the fact" on the crimp stage... It's pretty common for the 9mm Dillion sizing dies to leave the cases with a bulged "Coke bottle effect" look and lots of guys need to use a Lee FCD in tandem with the Dillion die for all their rounds to pass the gauge and/or chamber.
www.midwayusa.com
Another way to go about addressing your issue is just to try a different 9mm sizing die and ditch the Dillion die... I used to shoot a shit load of 9mm in USPSA and IDPA, and a good ol' $20 Lee 9mm sizing die always worked best for me as it sized further down to the bottom of the case head versus all the others (and I tried just about all of them out there).
FWIW, 99.9% of my rounds pass the case gauge on the first try, and with the ones that don't, I just run them up into my crimp die for a second time and then they do.
www.midwayusa.com
Lee Carbide 9mm Luger Factory Crimp Die
The Lee Precision Carbide Factory Crimp Die is designed to give reloaders the perfect crimp on each round of reloaded ammunition. The Factory Crimp Die...
www.midwayusa.com
Another way to go about addressing your issue is just to try a different 9mm sizing die and ditch the Dillion die... I used to shoot a shit load of 9mm in USPSA and IDPA, and a good ol' $20 Lee 9mm sizing die always worked best for me as it sized further down to the bottom of the case head versus all the others (and I tried just about all of them out there).
FWIW, 99.9% of my rounds pass the case gauge on the first try, and with the ones that don't, I just run them up into my crimp die for a second time and then they do.
Lee Carbide 9mm Luger Sizing Die
Lee Precision has been making high quality reloading equipment for over 50 years. Lee Carbide Sizing Dies are great for straight wall cartridge cases....
www.midwayusa.com
I have loaded 100,000's of 9mm on a XL650 and now 1050. I ran Dillon carbide 9mm die set for a long time. I now run Mighty Armory dies but the Dillons were problem free.
The DAA all in one seater/crimp die isn't the greatest. I have one and it didn't produce the best ammo... this is why I switched to the 1050 for more spaces..
But, you need to find exactly where your problem is first before you can fix it. One stage at a time is step one. Take a new case and run it into the first stage to deprime and size. Now stop, remove it and drop it in the case gauge. Does it fall right in and drop right out? If not, that's your problem..
If it does put the case back in and advance it.. does it not go in the gauge after seating a bullet? If not, it's probably a crimp issue or lack there of not folding the flare back go straight
The DAA all in one seater/crimp die isn't the greatest. I have one and it didn't produce the best ammo... this is why I switched to the 1050 for more spaces..
But, you need to find exactly where your problem is first before you can fix it. One stage at a time is step one. Take a new case and run it into the first stage to deprime and size. Now stop, remove it and drop it in the case gauge. Does it fall right in and drop right out? If not, that's your problem..
If it does put the case back in and advance it.. does it not go in the gauge after seating a bullet? If not, it's probably a crimp issue or lack there of not folding the flare back go straight
This. I am a big fan of Lee dies, particularly the FCD.The easiest fix for what you decribe is just to get a $20 9mm Lee FCD (factory crimp die) and throw that in you last crimp die station, the 9mm FCD is totally different than what you may be used to with a rifle FCD. The 9mm FCD has a carbide ring at the bottom that sort of "re-sizes the body after the fact" on the crimp stage... It's pretty common for the 9mm Dillion sizing dies to leave the cases with a bulged "Coke bottle effect" look and lots of guys need to use a Lee FCD in tandem with the Dillion die for all their rounds to pass the gauge and/or chamber.
Lee Carbide 9mm Luger Factory Crimp Die
The Lee Precision Carbide Factory Crimp Die is designed to give reloaders the perfect crimp on each round of reloaded ammunition. The Factory Crimp Die...
Another way to go about addressing your issue is just to try a different 9mm sizing die and ditch the Dillion die... I used to shoot a shit load of 9mm in USPSA and IDPA, and a good ol' $20 Lee 9mm sizing die always worked best for me as it sized further down to the bottom of the case head versus all the others (and I tried just about all of them out there).
FWIW, 99.9% of my rounds pass the case gauge on the first try, and with the ones that don't, I just run them up into my crimp die for a second time and then they do.
Lee Carbide 9mm Luger Sizing Die
Lee Precision has been making high quality reloading equipment for over 50 years. Lee Carbide Sizing Dies are great for straight wall cartridge cases....
Also, grab a handful of EMPTY brass and measure each piece for OAL. I've seen variations in length sufficient enough to have inconsistent crimps. Not much you can really do about it, but it will give you some points of reference.
I made a 9mm trimmer for my 650. I buy mostly mixed headstamp/range pickup brass to reload. I have seen variations of at least 0.022" from one mfr to another. After running all the brass through the trimmer, the length variations are in the area of 0.002". This variation is now small enough that it doesn't effect the crimps and all my loaded rounds come out perfect.
I loaded tens of thousands of rounds of 9mm for uspsa in the 2010s using a 650 and Dillon dies and I always noticed the coke bottle affect as well. But they chambered fine and accuracy was great. Lee fcd was my last station in the tool head.
How does your rounds chamber and shoot? If great then I wouldn’t worry about it. If they don’t, then start checking into things and work out the bugs.
How does your rounds chamber and shoot? If great then I wouldn’t worry about it. If they don’t, then start checking into things and work out the bugs.
This is good advice.
And to clarify my comments earlier, IMO it's better to find a regular sizing die and regular crimp die combo that works and does what you need it to than immediately trying a Lee FCD, using a Lee FCD is sort of a last resort as they are fairly heavy-handed in that they basically double-size one's cases, but sometimes, depending on the variety of different 9mms one owns/shoots and or one's level of patience with dialing in one's press, the Lee FCD can be a lifesaver at the expense of arguably leaving a tiny bit of accuracy on the table.
@padom is dead on about checking your crimp though... this is where most guys get caught up with 9mm. In 9mm it's not really a "crimp die" so much as a "bell removal die", you don't want to really be crimping. The best way I've found to set one up is to use your case gauge starting with a round that won't drop in, then, turn the the crimp die a 1/16" at a time until rounds will drop into the gauge and then stop, that's all the crimp you want/need and any more will cause issues.
This is why I love Wayne's Mighty Armory 9mm dies.. His 9mm seater removes 90% of the flare when seating.. his crimp die finishes it off with a D2 steel insert to finish straightening out that last 10% (he now has carbide dies also).
His dillon drop in powder funnel/flare is awesome. It doesn't flare it out like dillon, it opens it up for bullet diameter up top. No sticking like the dillon powder funnel either. Really makes for a smoother running press.
His dillon drop in powder funnel/flare is awesome. It doesn't flare it out like dillon, it opens it up for bullet diameter up top. No sticking like the dillon powder funnel either. Really makes for a smoother running press.
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I've had many dies from Wayne/MA but no longer use any of them. His 9mm stuff seems to be ok, but his rifle dies are awful (JMHO).
The powder funnel die is a great point though, it matters, I've always used the Mr. Bulletfeeder powder funnel insert (even before I had a Mr. Bulletfeeder) and it does make a huge difference.
I've been using the same setup for over 10 years now and IDK how many rounds (100,000?), first on a 650, then/now on a 750, pretty vanilla stuff:
1. Lee sizing die (standard, NOT the undersized U-die)
2. Mr. BF powder funnel
3. Mr. BF
4. Redding Competition seater
5. Lee crimp die (standard, boring one)
The powder funnel die is a great point though, it matters, I've always used the Mr. Bulletfeeder powder funnel insert (even before I had a Mr. Bulletfeeder) and it does make a huge difference.
I've been using the same setup for over 10 years now and IDK how many rounds (100,000?), first on a 650, then/now on a 750, pretty vanilla stuff:
1. Lee sizing die (standard, NOT the undersized U-die)
2. Mr. BF powder funnel
3. Mr. BF
4. Redding Competition seater
5. Lee crimp die (standard, boring one)
I don't want to derail the thread but what did you find awful about MA dies? I've been solely using MA Gold 223 and 308 sizing dies for a few years now to process brass and they size SSSOOO much smoother compared to the Forster FL sizing dies I was using. I don't use his button, I open necks back up on the next stage with a 21st Century mandrel....
His pistol dies if you measure with a caliper makes straight Sammi spec ammo once the die is setup correctly. No bulg ammo because of oversized cases.
I had some really bad experiences with a couple of his 6CM dies (ended up having to trash 300 Lapua cases that only had a few cycles on them and weren't even in their prime yet), and was pretty alarmed after talking to him and finding out first-hand that he didn't understand or know much about reloading for bolt guns using a single-stage (his expertise is with progressive presses and pistol calibers and ARs from what I gleaned)...
The 6CM dies wouldn't bump the shoulders without having to make custom shaved-down shell holders, and I found out the hard way that the tip of his "faux mandrel expander ball" design can unscrew itself and then punch-out/invert one's primer pockets (thus destroying their brass).
I don't want to talk shit, he seemed like a nice guy and is a talented machinist, but his expertise as a reloader is limited from what I could tell. YMMV.
Gotcha. I haven't had any of those issues with any of my MA dies.
ok, I also have the Mr. BF powder funnel for the 9mm and the Mr.BF, the DAA seating and crimp and I just cant seem to dial that last station in properly and have replaced that with an RCBS 20562 tamper crimp seating die over the week end but had some family comitments and could set it up.
Those DAA 2-in-1 dies are notoriously hard to setup and get to work properly (if this is what you're talking about: https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/daa-2-in-1-seating-and-crimping-die). I can't help you with that one...
That said, most of the guys I know of who've tried the DAA 2-in-1 die were trying it so they could also run a powder check die on a 650/750.... and IMO, with 9mm, a powder check die isn't really needed if you just use common sense and safely monitor things as you're loading.
If you're using something like N320 or Sport Pistol, a double-charge will overflow the case and make a huge mess all over your shell-plate and press, so you'll know you fucked up well before getting to the range lol. If you're using something that uses a really small charge, like Titegroup... be fucking careful (and maybe think about maybe not using Titegroup lol).
The other potentially dangerous condition is making an empty case (no powder) and causing a squib... but that can only happen if you were being an idiot and not paying attention (usually it happens when fixing something else on the press while loading and not realizing you skipped dropping powder into a case). The simple fix for that is: don't do that lol!
IMO anytime you stop the press for some reason, you need to put your attention on what has or hasn't happened at the powder station before you restart, and if you practice that like a religious ritual, you'll be just fine.
(and remember, with 9mm, it's not really a "crimp die"... it's just a "bell removal die", just enough is all you need lol.)
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