XM193 GTG for AR500?

[5RWill]

I'm sure this question has been asked several times, though i only found one source saying so on google, most were just comparing xm193 to .223 FMJ i guess bullet wise they're both just ball ammo? FMJ copper jacket with lead core?

Anyhow safe distance for shooting AR 500 and not damaging it? All 1/2" Thick IIRC, my small targets my be 3/8ths i know the full size IPSC is. Anyhow i wanted to get some ammo for my carbine as i have saved most of my 77gr SMKs for my MK12.

This is a little off topic but where can you find MK318? Though from what i read the price isn't economical like XM193 or any of the other bulk NATO rounds. Not particular to shooting 5.56X45 NATO over .223, missed what little 55gr FMJs came through freedom munitions and saw they had new XM193 in stock for a price i didn't mind paying. So picked up 200rds though wish i would've ordered 400rds.

Second guessing on why i put this in semi-auto section, probably should be in general or reloading..my mistake mods.

 

[The Gump]

100 yards is the safe minimum distance for rifle on steel. Not only for your steel but for bullet splatter as well. We've shot it at shorter distances bit it pocks the steel. You should be able shoot anything that a magnet won't stick to and bullets going less than 3200fps at ar500 over 100 yards and not fuck it up. Speed is just as much a contributor to damaged steel as penetrator/bimetal bullets.

 

[rjacobs]

I've hit an angled(roughly 30 degree), 3/8 ar500 plate at 25 yards with no damage. Spall went straight down with no dings or dents on the plate.. I wouldnt do that with a flat piece of plate though.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Here is what MGM targets says about Xm193 and shooting it's targets.

MGM FAQS link: FAQs : MGM Targets, Taking training to the next level...

“PLEASE NOTE: DO NOT SHOOT STEEL TARGETS WITH 'XM-193' AMMUNITION. SUCH AMMUNITION IS INTENDED TO PENETRATE STEEL AND WILL CAUSE SEVERE DAMAGE TO TARGETS, INCREASING THE LIKELYHOOD OF FAILURE AND PERSONAL INJURY. DAMAGE TO TARGETS RESULTING FROM THE USE OF 'XM-193' WILL NOT BE COVERED BY THE WARRANTY.”

With that said, 816Gump hit the nail on the head with the FPS/velocity of 3000 fps. If you shoot XM193 out of a gun thats getting 3000fps or faster at the target, you'll poke a hole in the AR500. Less than that, you will/can put divots in the AR500 depending on the Velocity. 22-250 will also poke a hole in AR500 due to velocity and cross section/mass out of a typical hunting rifle length barrel. If you are shooting the AR500 at 100m out of carbine length barrels chance are you won't be getting the 3000 fps and should be good to go.

 

[5RWill]

I don't own any MGM but i wasn't expecting that. So what do they think about regular .223 FMJ? From what i understand round wise they're extremely similar no? Reading around it was my understanding that M193 has a lead core and would be okay on steel, unlike M855 which has a steel core. Guess that's mostly dependent on range and angle of the steel.

This would be out of a 14.5 carbine i'm guessing 2900-3000. Just be safe i'll shoot at 100m.

 

[Metal Gear]

I have a few AR500 targets all 3/8" in thickness. Over the years I have put lots of 5.56 into them and from my experience here is what I can tell you. With XM193 you are good to go at 100 yards. At 100 yards XM193 may sometimes put a barely noticable tiny dimple into the steel target. Now with XM855, at 100 yards the dimple you will get on the target is pretty noticable and will certainly decrease the life of your steel targets. With standard 223 55 grain FMJ, I have shot my steel targets as close as 80 yards without any real noticable dimples or damage to the steel.

These days whenever I shoot my steel targets with my AR's the ammo I typically use is Wolf Gold 55gr fmj, Wolf steel cased 55gr fmj, PMC 55gr fmj, and Freedom Munitions 55gr fmj.

So to answer your question, if you want to shoot your steel with XM193, I would stay at least 100 yards away.

By the way, whenever I shoot my steel targets they are hanging by chains so they don't really any type of downward angle on them.

 

[Donr13]

I don't own any MGM but i wasn't expecting that. So what do they think about regular .223 FMJ? From what i understand round wise they're extremely similar no? Reading around it was my understanding that M193 has a lead core and would be okay on steel, unlike M855 which has a steel core. Guess that's mostly dependent on range and angle of the steel.

This would be out of a 14.5 carbine i'm guessing 2900-3000. Just be safe i'll shoot at 100m.

In my experience the xm193 did not make any marks on my mr target ar500 targets at 75yrds and out. I would never shoot the m855.

 

[Donr13]

Oh and that's shooting out of anything from 10.5" -18" barrels so that may give you an idea of the velocities.

 

[5RWill]

I have a few AR500 targets all 3/8" in thickness. Over the years I have put lots of 5.56 into them and from my experience here is what I can tell you. With XM193 you are good to go at 100 yards. At 100 yards XM193 may sometimes put a barely noticable tiny dimple into the steel target. Now with XM855, at 100 yards the dimple you will get on the target is pretty noticable and will certainly decrease the life of your steel targets. With standard 223 55 grain FMJ, I have shot my steel targets as close as 80 yards without any real noticable dimples or damage to the steel.

These days whenever I shoot my steel targets with my AR's the ammo I typically use is Wolf Gold 55gr fmj, Wolf steel cased 55gr fmj, PMC 55gr fmj, and Freedom Munitions 55gr fmj.

So to answer your question, if you want to shoot your steel with XM193, I would stay at least 100 yards away.

By the way, whenever I shoot my steel targets they are hanging by chains so they don't really any type of downward angle on them.

I see. Yeah his is new freedom munitions m193. I barely missed the regular 223 Fmj. They had 30boxes of 500rds by the time my buddy told me there were 3 left, I hit checkout and they were out of stock. Though I'm thinking of picking up another 400rds of M193 while they got it. It's very cheap I expect it to run extremely well through my BCM 14.5.


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[Metal Gear]

I see. Yeah his is new freedom munitions m193. I barely missed the regular 223 Fmj. They had 30boxes of 500rds by the time my buddy told me there were 3 left, I hit checkout and they were out of stock. Though I'm thinking of picking up another 400rds of M193 while they got it. It's very cheap I expect it to run extremely well through my BCM 14.5.


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Keep an eye out for the 55gr 223 from them. I have no doubt they will have some back in stock within a week or two. Everytime they have their free shipping offers their stock on 223 seems to sell out.

 

[5RWill]

I thought the free shipping was only if you were a new time customer? Hell I paid 15$ for shipping.

Oh and that's shooting out of anything from 10.5" -18" barrels so that may give you an idea of the velocities.

Awesome. My IPSC target is angled but my little ones aren't.



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[Metal Gear]

I thought the free shipping was only if you were a new time customer? Hell I paid 15$ for shipping.

They had a free shipping sale on all orders that ran for about a week that just ended yesterday. If you have social media like Facebook, I would "friend" them as they often times post their limited time promotions they have such as free shipping.

 

[5RWill]

My luck ^, they must be doing well given how low cost their ammo is, the daily cyber deals, and other stuff. Glad someone is though because they have great prices on ammo.

 

[brcook03]

M193 is not designed to penetrate steel. That would be M855. I've shot AR500 plates with XM193 at 100 yards with no visible marking on the plates. Out of my guns, that round is travelling between 2800 and 3000 fps, depending on barrel length.

 

[Trespasser]

A 1/2" AR500 plate can stand up to XM855 at 200 yards. It will leave a shallow mark and a nice splash of silver steel.

 

[FLS]

I run a monthly 3 gun and we pound our steel with xm193. We shoot our plate racks and poppers at less than 100 yds with no failures. I've got a BC zone in my back yard that has been hit with a bunch of 193 and 308 ball at significantly less than 100 yds. IF Xm193 is penetrating your AR 500 you either aren't shooting xm193 or your steel isn't really AR 500.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

3000 fps or faster I shoot my AR 500 with XM193 all day too, but its not coming out of my gun(s) at 3000 fps or faster.

 

[5RWill]

I run a monthly 3 gun and we pound our steel with xm193. We shoot our plate racks and poppers at less than 100 yds with no failures. I've got a BC zone in my back yard that has been hit with a bunch of 193 and 308 ball at significantly less than 100 yds. IF Xm193 is penetrating your AR 500 you either aren't shooting xm193 or your steel isn't really AR 500.

Well I haven't tried it yet, but that is reassuring.


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[LRRPF52]

M193 is not designed to penetrate steel. That would be M855. I've shot AR500 plates with XM193 at 100 yards with no visible marking on the plates. Out of my guns, that round is travelling between 2800 and 3000 fps, depending on barrel length.

M193 is designed to penetrate steel. The whole reason we have 5.56x45 and M193 is because of the Army Ordnance Board's moving the goal posts on the SCHV Rifle with a steel helmet perforation (through and through) requirement, where it started at 200yds, and they kept moving it out farther in order to kill the concept, even though the .222 Remington Rifles were exceeding their expectations from the start. 200yds..it perforated...300yds....same thing....400yds...ditto....500yds it only penetrated one side of the helmet.

At that time, Eugene Stoner (a 7.62 NATO proponent himself who saw the SCHV as somewhat of a distraction), asked Remington if they could blow the shoulder forward in the chamber, use a lighter 55gr bullet with a boat tail, go to a faster burning ball powder, and get the velocity up so that they could perforate this stupid steel helmet and prove that it was doable, and be done with it.

Hence was born the .222 Remington Special, which did in fact pass the test, and was later type-classified as the 5.56x45 cartridge. Production nomenclature became the M193. All Russian body armor at the time was easily penetrated by this 5.56x45 load due to speed and sectional density, even to the point that M193 has better penetration characteristics than M80 ball 7.62 NATO on steel.

As to the question about AR500, the guidance I have seen from MGM, Action Targets, and other reputable manufacturers is to keep their steel at 200yds or farther when shooting M193. The divots created in the target face pose a ricochet hazard because other projectiles can be redirected by the craters back to the shooter, even on angled plates.

M193 travels at an average 2990-3050fps mv from the 14.5" M4 carbine. There are many M193 loads that travel over 2900fps from an 11.5" barrel. It's one of the hottest military rifle loads ever manufactured. With 16" barrels, you will be over 3000fps easily.

M855 is still a fast round with the steel penetrator underneath the nose, but it isn't as fast as M193. If you shoot M855 from a 14.5" barrel, it clocks around 2890-2920fps, which is smoking hot as well.

Both cartridges are very fast, hot loaded, and will damage AR500 within 100-200yds, depending on barrel length. They are most formidable from your 18" and 20" guns. When running any courses involving steel plates, I keep the plates at 200yds and farther, unless shooting plates that are intended to be abused and are angled, but it is rare that I do it.

 

[brcook03]

I wasn't aware of the deep development of the M193 round. Thank you for the lesson.

I have shot M193 at 100 yards (possibly slightly less) and not seen any damage done to the plate. Several hundred rounds from my guns, unknown counts from friends who were also shooting. Perhaps the trick is not rigidly mounting the plates and having a stand that angles them properly.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I wasn't aware of the deep development of the M193 round. Thank you for the lesson.

I have shot M193 at 100 yards (possibly slightly less) and not seen any damage done to the plate. Several hundred rounds from my guns, unknown counts from friends who were also shooting. Perhaps the trick is not rigidly mounting the plates and having a stand that angles them properly.

NO TRICKS people, it's about VELOCITY!!. I feel like I'm posting on AR-15 here and not the Hide. LRRPF52 explains it quiet well in his post above. If you shoot your AR500 with XM193 and don't get divots or penetrate it guess what that means? IT MEANS YOU'RE NOT GETTING 3000 FPS OUT OF THE GUN YOU ARE SHOOTING IT FROM.


VELOCITY....3000 FPS..... Got it now?

 

[brcook03]

NO TRICKS people, it's about VELOCITY!!. I feel like I'm posting on AR-15 here and not the Hide. LRRPF52 explains it quiet well in his post above. If you shoot your AR500 with XM193 and don't get divots or penetrate it guess what that means? IT MEANS YOU'RE NOT GETTING 3000 FPS OUT OF THE GUN YOU ARE SHOOTING IT FROM.


VELOCITY....3000 FPS..... Got it now?

Since I'm quoted, I guess I'll respond. The OP asked for advice and I (and others) provided direct experience. I agree that LRRPF52 provided a great explanation of M193. However, I was indicating that my experience didn't match with the recommended distances that he had posted. While I can't speak for the other posts in the thread, I can verify the velocities of the rounds out of the guns fired at my target.

3 rifles were used and the two 16" guns were recorded at 3050 and 3100 fps respectively. The 12.5" SBR was recorded at between 2875 and 2900 fps. All velocities were recorded with an Oehler 35P and all ammo (measured and fired at target) was Federal/Lake City XM193 and from the same lot number.

 

[5RWill]

http://youtu.be/55J-biie77g

Must have. Looks like 30 degree angle is GTG with m193 even at 50yds.


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[sawman556]

M193 blows through mild steel like it's butter. However, it would take a metric shit ton of it to kill 3/8-1/2" AR500.

 

[SPEAK338]

The angle of the steel is just as important as the velocity of the round

 

[RELOOP]

I'm with FLS, I've shot my Big Dog or JC Steel as close as 10 yds w/ 10.5" and other than minor dimples, no issues. Def more damage than 168 fgmm though.

 

[LRRPF52]

Dimples are what we want to avoid, since they act as little craters that can catch a projectile and direct some of the mass back at the shooters and bystanders. I'm not so worried about perforation with AR500 as I am dimples.

Since M193 does not have a penetrator, it will spall well away with angled plate, and the above video seems to indicate that 30 degrees is a good solution for that, as long as you maintain stand off distance per the manufacturer's recommendations of 50yds.

I especially would not shoot these plates with M855 at close range, even angled, because the steel penetrator in M855 has a flat face specifically designed to purchase or bite into angled steel faces, and burn into them. If you ever wondered why the penetrator in M855 has the flat nose, that is why. It's actually a very well designed 5.56 NATO light machine gun cartridge, with good but relatively tight dispersal for a belt fed, while more than accurate for service rifle use in the hands of 1st-term soldiers.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Interestingly enough, even in the video at the 9:38-9:40 mark the reviewer comments about velocity and from the guy who makes those targets website, and I quote.

Keep in mind with 223/5.56 that some loads may be over 3000 FPS. These loads should be used at longer ranges to prevent damage to the target.

At the risk of being overly obvious, you need to look at the velocity of the round at the target, at the range(distance) it is from the end of the muzzle and not what you are getting right out of the end of the barrel. Chances are, the round isn't at 3000 (or +) fps any more if it isn't penetrating the plate, despite your MV from your chrono telling you it's 3000 fps.

 

[5RWill]

I'm selling my 14.5 upper but whenever i get home i might shoot it at 75yds with it. I plan on having an 11.5, so i'm not too concerned with the velocity i just don't see an 11.5 hitting near that. When i get home this coming saturday i'll see what results i get on one of my 8" circles. Or maybe even my bigdog 30x18 full size IPSC, it has the ability to be slightly angled.

Like so