XM3 clone build.

[Jrb572]

I am hung up on the scope mount and recoil ring (my lead fell apart). Does anyone have a lead on those parts for my XM3 clone build? If yes please PM me, thank you. For whoever comes through I will have a reward on a hard part to obtain for your own XM3 build.

Did you try pacific tool and guage? Shows steel and titanium. I ordered a titanium one they said in stock. Hopefully I don’t get screwed by them. I will update you when I get it.

https://pacifictoolandgauge.com/remington-picatinny-rails/22548-titanium-darpa-xm-3-scope-base-20-moa-8-40-screws.html?search_query=Xm-3&results=3

Or IBA. There’s is steel not titanium

Services 1 — Iron Brigade Arms

ironbrigadearms.com

As far a recoil lug I’m using a Stainless Badger Ordnance on mine. I could not find anything in titanium

Maximized Recoil Lug-Stainless Steel

Maximized Recoil Lug-Stainless Steel

www.badgerordnance.com

 

[Jrb572]

Fun fact, Tiny is back at IBA building XM-3’s. IBA is charging the INSANE price of $3,250 to do most of the work. They’re sending it off to have the barrel installed.

So anyways, my gun is going to GAP..

I was quoted way less than that as long as I had all my parts.

 

[308pirate]

It almost seems criminal to me that a rifle manufacturer would charge the same price to assemble and smith a build as the total price of all parts required for the build.

So what should a business owner charge for his labor, overhead, and profit?

 

[Redwolf505]

Depending on your reputation as a gun smith $1,000 for a build $1,500 if there is a good bit of fitting involved, $2k if you have a reputation, but $3k-$3.5k is as much as all the parts combined. That is just my opinion. It's too much. With BG Defense (Type A Rifles), the price I was given was $6,900 which is $3k for smith fees from a company that has no standing like Tac Ops who has the reputation to deserve $3k or more smith fees. That is my point. Or IBA who has the provenance and reputation to charge $3,250 and be justified. And as consumers we take our money where we feel like we will get value. I will keep my money from Type A Rifles because I feel they are taking advantage of the XM3 name and making claims that are not true. That is why I started this thread. And a complete rifle build or part will go for a price that someone is willing and able to pay for it. Not what the seller thinks it is worth.

 

[Mongoose0311]

I was quoted way less than that as long as I had all my parts.

Correct, however there is an additional charge of $1,400 if you have a barrel blank and need it installed.

 

[Jrb572]

Correct, however there is an additional charge of $1,400 if you have a barrel blank and need it installed. View attachment 8440713

Oh shit they never said that when I emailed them.

 

[USMCSGT0331]

Oh shit they never said that when I emailed them.

Yep, I talked to Sabien Chandler yesterday and just received this same information. However, if you already have a Hart barrel blank, it should be less than the $1,400 that Hart is charging for their part of the build. You still nees to send all of your parts to IBA because they'll do some work to the receiver before sending it out to Hart. They're only using Hart for these XM3 builds and a few other rifles that use Hart barrels, they're doing other rifles in-house with their gunsmiths. I think this is just easier for IBA to do it this way, and they've had a relationship with Hart for a long time. Hart was building the barreled actions for IBA when IBA first started up in the late 80's or whenever. After a few years, IBA moved to doing everything in-house, including building the original USMC XM3's. It's interesting to see that theyve moved back to using Hart for builds, but Hart is also a very reputable company with known history for high-quality work.

As for the price on builds that have all of the parts supplied by the customer (minus the Hart barrel blank), it's $1,850 for IBA to do their work and $1,400 for Hart to do their work. If there's a discount for the Hart work by supplying your own Hart barrel blank, then it might be around $1k for their work, but Sabien is reaching out to Hart this week to verify the price for us. That means it will be $2,850 to $3,250 for an XM3 built by IBA/Hart.

Don't let this price be a turnoff, there is nothing insane about this build cost! If you gather all the correct parts, such as an original Remington S prefix serial number receiver and reproduction titanium parts, the price of the parts kit is probably going to be around $3,500. You can obviously spend even less than this, if you want. In total, $3,500 plus $3,250 is $6,750 (and you can spend even less on the parts of you want, which will lower the cost). The original price for just an IBA XM3 rifle was $8,541 in 2006 dollars, which are worth over $13,000 in 2024 dollars with inflation taken into consideration!!! So, even spending under $7k today is MUCH cheaper than buying one of the original IBA XM3's back in 2006! I purchased an original IBA XM3 prototype from them back in 2012 and it cost me about $9,500 with the NightForce NXS scope. I sold that rifle to a friend for a little over $10,000 a few years ago. Before these new IBA XM3's were being built, you'd have to pay over $10,000 for an IBA XM3 civilian build, or currently over $20,000 for an original USMC IBA XM3 at CMP auction. Those were your only options for a real IBA XM3 build, but now you can get one done for a fraction of those prices! Taking all of this into consideration, the $6,750 price is completely reasonable! And right now they're charging more than that for a 100% IBA/Hart complete XM3 without any customer supplied parts, so it's far cheaper to source your own parts.

To anyone comparing this IBA/Hart XM3 to something like a GA Precision build, the prices are pretty damn close!. A spec XM3 build should be close to an M40A5 build, since they use similar parts. On GA Precision's website, an M40A5 build is listed at $6,334, which directly rivals the price of a customer supplied parts XM3 at $6,750 or less. Not only is the IBA/Hart price completely in-line with what very well-known and respected companies like GA Precision are charging, IBA is also using a very well-known and respected gunsmith for their part of the XM3 build (Tiny). Tiny Briggs is a great gunsmith, and he built the original USMC XM3's. So, with this $6,750 or less price tag, you also get the confidence that it's built by someone who's known to be a great gunsmith, and it's a rifle that will ALWAYS carry IBA XM3 provenance from the company who originally built them for the Marines.

This is like having Chris Higgins at Red Bull Armory build you a Mk13 Mod 7, which was his brain-child that he developed when he worked at Crane NSWC. This IBA provenance adds a ton of value to the XM3 build, which is far more than any other company building XM3 clones. Even though Hart is helping mount the barrel, IBA is still doing all of the other gunsmithing work, and it's straight up a documented IBA XM3 rifle built to original USMC XM3 specs! That will always make these new IBA XM3's worth quite a bit, especially if their shop ever closes their doors again! The provenance and value of an IBA XM3 build is there, and that helps justify the $1,850 they charge for their portion of the build.

Additionally, this thread has a comparison between customer supplied parts for an IBA XM3 built to the "XM3" that is currently being offered by Type A Rifle Company. Do a direct comparison between the 2 rifles from each company, and it justifies the IBA build even further! Type A has unknown gunsmiths building their rifles (at least to the general public's knowledge and in comparison to Tiny at IBA), they are using the cheapest parts they possibly can and the parts aren't clone correct (for example, they're using a new production Remington 700 receiver, not an old long discontinued Remington 700 stainless S prefix receiver), and they're deceiving potential customers by saying that they're the only ones who are getting "exclusive" or whatever XM3 stocks from McMillan (completely lying about this and playing into people's FOMO mentality). They're probably spending less than $3,000 on parts, and yet they're charging $7,000 for their "XM3" build (sometimes discounted to $6,500 if you call them).

Taking this information into account, Type A is easily charging $3,500 to $4,000 in gunsmithing fees (more than IBA/Hart) for an incorrect XM3 build, with an unknown gunsmith, with wrong parts, with no provenance going back to a USMC contract, etc. This is the built that has an massively unjustifiable price for a rifle build that's not even in the same ballpark as an IBA build! This is the type of company that should be scrutinized and asked to justify their exorbitant pricing that's far more than what other highly reputable companies like GA Precision is charging! Their price at $7k is extremely close to the $8k price for a Tac Ops build, and yet they aren't even in the same universe when compared to a Tac Ops build! So, how can they possibly justify Tac Ops pricing for their terrible "XM3" build? Type A should be cost competitive, especially when using the cheapest incorrect parts possible, and should realistically be priced at about $5,000 for what they offer (that's $2k+ for gunsmithing fees for essentially hanging a barrel, bedding the barreled action, and a few other minor gunsmithing services). Even if Type A drops their fees to $2k for gunsmithing services, it's still a lot, especially when you compare the same work to the price estimate from RWS (an actual respected builder) at about $1,300.

So, even at $2,850 to $3,250 for the gunsmithing fees that IBA/Hart is charging, it's 100% justified and completely in-line with what other companies like GA Precision would charge for a build. However, that's only if you supply your own parts. A 100% IBA build with parts supplied by IBA is going to cist a lot more, easily into the Tac Ops area of pricing. That is a ton of money, and I'm not sure that I could even justify that one. Providing them with your own parts allows you to save a lot of money, and you have 100% control over every single part that's being used for your XM3 build. Collectors should be extremely happy that IBA is making XM3's again, and there's an option to pay less than $7k for the entire build (which is a fraction of what all the other IBA XM3 builds have cost). So, instead of just looking at a single number for the gunsmithing cost, everyone needs to take a step back and take all of this information into consideration. Once you have all of this information, the price that IBA/Hart is charging is completely reasonable and in turn your getting an actual XM3 build with IBA provenance. I only recommend supplying your own parts for the XM3 build, since buying a complete XM3 outright from IBA will actually be expensive. The XM3 has been a very popular GWOT clone, and people have been asking IBA for a long time to come back and make them. The original price for just an IBA XM3 was $8,541 almost 20 years ago, which is currently over $13,000 in todays money! This is literally what everyone wanted, a real IBA XM3 for less than what the originals cost (if you supply your own parts). This is a massive win for all of us collectors/clone builders, so take advantage of what they're offering now before prices increase or they close the business again (Sabien is doing a great job running IBA, I think they'll be open for many, many more years).

 

[Jrb572]

Yep, I talked to Sabien Chandler yesterday and just received this same information. However, if you already have a Hart barrel blank, it should be less than the $1,400 that Hart is charging for their part of the build. You still nees to send all of your parts to IBA because they'll do some work to the receiver before sending it out to Hart. They're only using Hart for these XM3 builds and a few other rifles that use Hart barrels, they're doing other rifles in-house with their gunsmiths. I think this is just easier for IBA to do it this way, and they've had a relationship with Hart for a long time. Hart was building the barreled actions for IBA when IBA first started up in the late 80's or whenever. After a few years, IBA moved to doing everything in-house, including building the original USMC XM3's. It's interesting to see that theyve moved back to using Hart for builds, but Hart is also a very reputable company with known history for high-quality work.

As for the price on builds that have all of the parts supplied by the customer (minus the Hart barrel blank), it's $1,850 for IBA to do their work and $1,400 for Hart to do their work. If there's a discount for the Hart work by supplying your own Hart barrel blank, then it might be around $1k for their work, but Sabien is reaching out to Hart this week to verify the price for us. That means it will be $2,850 to $3,250 for an XM3 built by IBA/Hart.

Don't let this price be a turnoff, there is nothing insane about this build cost! If you gather all the correct parts, such as an original Remington S prefix serial number receiver and reproduction titanium parts, the price of the parts kit is probably going to be around $3,500. You can obviously spend even less than this, if you want. In total, $3,500 plus $3,250 is $6,750 (and you can spend even less on the parts of you want, which will lower the cost). The original price for just an IBA XM3 rifle was $8,541 in 2006 dollars, which are worth over $13,000 in 2024 dollars with inflation taken into consideration!!! So, even spending under $7k today is MUCH cheaper than buying one of the original IBA XM3's back in 2006! I purchased an original IBA XM3 prototype from them back in 2012 and it cost me about $9,500 with the NightForce NXS scope. I sold that rifle to a friend for a little over $10,000 a few years ago. Before these new IBA XM3's were being built, you'd have to pay over $10,000 for an IBA XM3 civilian build, or currently over $20,000 for an original USMC IBA XM3 at CMP auction. Those were your only options for a real IBA XM3 build, but now you can get one done for a fraction of those prices! Taking all of this into consideration, the $6,750 price is completely reasonable! And right now they're charging more than that for a 100% IBA/Hart complete XM3 without any customer supplied parts, so it's far cheaper to source your own parts.

To anyone comparing this IBA/Hart XM3 to something like a GA Precision build, the prices are pretty damn close!. A spec XM3 build should be close to an M40A5 build, since they use similar parts. On GA Precision's website, an M40A5 build is listed at $6,334, which directly rivals the price of a customer supplied parts XM3 at $6,750 or less. Not only is the IBA/Hart price completely in-line with what very well-known and respected companies like GA Precision are charging, IBA is also using a very well-known and respected gunsmith for their part of the XM3 build (Tiny). Tiny Briggs is a great gunsmith, and he built the original USMC XM3's. So, with this $6,750 or less price tag, you also get the confidence that it's built by someone who's known to be a great gunsmith, and it's a rifle that will ALWAYS carry IBA XM3 provenance from the company who originally built them for the Marines.

This is like having Chris Higgins at Red Bull Armory build you a Mk13 Mod 7, which was his brain-child that he developed when he worked at Crane NSWC. This IBA provenance adds a ton of value to the XM3 build, which is far more than any other company building XM3 clones. Even though Hart is helping mount the barrel, IBA is still doing all of the other gunsmithing work, and it's straight up a documented IBA XM3 rifle built to original USMC XM3 specs! That will always make these new IBA XM3's worth quite a bit, especially if their shop ever closes their doors again! The provenance and value of an IBA XM3 build is there, and that helps justify the $1,850 they charge for their portion of the build.

Additionally, this thread has a comparison between customer supplied parts for an IBA XM3 built to the "XM3" that is currently being offered by Type A Rifle Company. Do a direct comparison between the 2 rifles from each company, and it justifies the IBA build even further! Type A has unknown gunsmiths building their rifles (at least to the general public's knowledge and in comparison to Tiny at IBA), they are using the cheapest parts they possibly can and the parts aren't clone correct (for example, they're using a new production Remington 700 receiver, not an old long discontinued Remington 700 stainless S prefix receiver), and they're deceiving potential customers by saying that they're the only ones who are getting "exclusive" or whatever XM3 stocks from McMillan (completely lying about this and playing into people's FOMO mentality). They're probably spending less than $3,000 on parts, and yet they're charging $7,000 for their "XM3" build (sometimes discounted to $6,500 if you call them).

Taking this information into account, Type A is easily charging $3,500 to $4,000 in gunsmithing fees (more than IBA/Hart) for an incorrect XM3 build, with an unknown gunsmith, with wrong parts, with no provenance going back to a USMC contract, etc. This is the built that has an massively unjustifiable price for a rifle build that's not even in the same ballpark as an IBA build! This is the type of company that should be scrutinized and asked to justify their exorbitant pricing that's far more than what other highly reputable companies like GA Precision is charging! Their price at $7k is extremely close to the $8k price for a Tac Ops build, and yet they aren't even in the same universe when compared to a Tac Ops build! So, how can they possibly justify Tac Ops pricing for their terrible "XM3" build? Type A should be cost competitive, especially when using the cheapest incorrect parts possible, and should realistically be priced at about $5,000 for what they offer (that's $2k+ for gunsmithing fees for essentially hanging a barrel, bedding the barreled action, and a few other minor gunsmithing services). Even if Type A drops their fees to $2k for gunsmithing services, it's still a lot, especially when you compare the same work to the price estimate from RWS (an actual respected builder) at about $1,300.

So, even at $2,850 to $3,250 for the gunsmithing fees that IBA/Hart is charging, it's 100% justified and completely in-line with what other companies like GA Precision would charge for a build. However, that's only if you supply your own parts. A 100% IBA build with parts supplied by IBA is going to cist a lot more, easily into the Tac Ops area of pricing. That is a ton of money, and I'm not sure that I could even justify that one. Providing them with your own parts allows you to save a lot of money, and you have 100% control over every single part that's being used for your XM3 build. Collectors should be extremely happy that IBA is making XM3's again, and there's an option to pay less than $7k for the entire build (which is a fraction of what all the other IBA XM3 builds have cost). So, instead of just looking at a single number for the gunsmithing cost, everyone needs to take a step back and take all of this information into consideration. Once you have all of this information, the price that IBA/Hart is charging is completely reasonable and in turn your getting an actual XM3 build with IBA provenance. I only recommend supplying your own parts for the XM3 build, since buying a complete XM3 outright from IBA will actually be expensive. The XM3 has been a very popular GWOT clone, and people have been asking IBA for a long time to come back and make them. The original price for just an IBA XM3 was $8,541 almost 20 years ago, which is currently over $13,000 in todays money! This is literally what everyone wanted, a real IBA XM3 for less than what the originals cost (if you supply your own parts). This is a massive win for all of us collectors/clone builders, so take advantage of what they're offering now before prices increase or they close the business again (Sabien is doing a great job running IBA, I think they'll be open for many, many more years).

I ended up purchasing a titanium scope mount from PTG hopefully it is very close to the correct one and I actually get it.

Any ideas where to get a correct recoil lug?

 

[USMCSGT0331]

I ended up purchasing a titanium scope mount from PTG hopefully it is very close to the correct one and I actually get it.

Any ideas where to get a correct recoil lug?

Does PTG have any XM3 lugs? I actually asked Sabien about these PTG XM3 scope rails as well, especially since they're marked with Iron Brigade Armory on top of them. Sabien said that they're actually working with PTG on these XM3 scope bases, so they're legit and are made to 100% original XM3 specs! So, it's great that you bought the titanium version from them, it's EXACTLY what you need for your build! I have no idea about the recoil lug, but try looking on PTG's website or asking them if they are making those as well. I'll ask Sabien what the best route is for the recoil lug the next time it talk to him. It's good to hear that you're moving along with acquiring your XM3 build parts! I think I have a message or 2 from you as well in my inbox, I'll take a look at that later today and hit you back.

 

[Jrb572]

Does PTG have any XM3 lugs? I actually asked Sabien about these PTG XM3 scope rails as well, especially since they're marked with Iron Brigade Armory on top of them. Sabien said that they're actually working with PTG on these XM3 scope bases, so they're legit and are made to 100% original XM3 specs! So, it's great that you bought the titanium version from them, it's EXACTLY what you need for your build! I have no idea about the recoil lug, but try looking on PTG's website or asking them if they are making those as well. I'll ask Sabien what the best route is for the recoil lug the next time it talk to him. It's good to hear that you're moving along with acquiring your XM3 build parts! I think I have a message or 2 from you as well in my inbox, I'll take a look at that later today and hit you back.

Barrel is supposed to be here next month from Hart

The recoil lug and Rings for my Schmidt 8451 marked scope is the last parts.

I can not find either of them.

 

[Jrb572]

So far I don’t see any titanium recoil lugs on there site. Only thing I can find is SS and 4140

I tried emailing LRI about it and no response. I’ll try calling them tomorrow

 

[Jrb572]

Does PTG have any XM3 lugs? I actually asked Sabien about these PTG XM3 scope rails as well, especially since they're marked with Iron Brigade Armory on top of them. Sabien said that they're actually working with PTG on these XM3 scope bases, so they're legit and are made to 100% original XM3 specs! So, it's great that you bought the titanium version from them, it's EXACTLY what you need for your build! I have no idea about the recoil lug, but try looking on PTG's website or asking them if they are making those as well. I'll ask Sabien what the best route is for the recoil lug the next time it talk to him. It's good to hear that you're moving along with acquiring your XM3 build parts! I think I have a message or 2 from you as well in my inbox, I'll take a look at that later today and hit you back.

would you be able to measure the bottom width of the recoil lug for me?

 

[USMCSGT0331]

would you be able to measure the bottom width of the recoil lug for me?

Yes I can, I'll pull apart my USMC XM3 when I have time and post the measurements. Please let me know what else I can do to help out!

 

[Redwolf505]

I talked to PTG today and they are doing a run of the TI recoil legs. They will be over $100 and the TI scope base is $350 Ref #F66940C3 to order.

 

[Jrb572]

I talked to PTG today and they are doing a run of the TI recoil legs. They will be over $100 and the TI scope base is $350 Ref #F66940C3 to order.

They did not happen to give an ETA on the recoil lugs did they? I know PTG can be notoriously long on their lead time. I get it everyone is busy and do not just drop everything for one part.

Next thing is one of those damn flash hiders. I can live with the break until I come across one.

 

[USMCSGT0331]

Next thing is one of those damn flash hiders. I can live with the break until I come across one.

Legit sterile SureFire XM3 flash hiders are near impossible to find. The very few loose ones that are out there are probably extras from IBA from when they were originally testing the rifles. If you can find the correct regular production flash hiders, buy one, bead blast it, and then refinish it. The laser engraving is very lightly done and is very shallow, so it probably wouldn't take much to remove the engraving. I don't know what the finish is on the original USMC XM3 SureFire flash hiders, but I'm sure you could refinish a regular production flash hider to look just like the issued sterile version. Just something to consider.

 

[macethetemplar]

This is a massive win for all of us collectors/clone builders, so take advantage of what they're offering now before prices increase or they close the business again.

This is probably the most important part right here, this is the equivalent of having your M40A6 built at PWS. Long term it is just a more valuable item, that right now with your own supplied parts you can get a better deal on. Keep in mind too that 11 of the XM3 rifles that the CMP has sold went for over 20k.

 

[Mongoose0311]

As for the price on builds that have all of the parts supplied by the customer (minus the Hart barrel blank), it's $1,850 for IBA to do their work and $1,400 for Hart to do their work. If there's a discount for the Hart work by supplying your own Hart barrel blank, then it might be around $1k for their work, but Sabien is reaching out to Hart this week to verify the price for us. That means it will be $2,850 to $3,250 for an XM3 built by IBA/Hart.

Don't let this price be a turnoff, there is nothing insane about this build cost!

To anyone comparing this IBA/Hart XM3 to something like a GA Precision build, the prices are pretty damn close!. A spec XM3 build should be close to an M40A5 build, since they use similar parts. On GA Precision's website, an M40A5 build is listed at $6,334, which directly rivals the price of a customer supplied parts XM3 at $6,750 or less. Not only is the IBA/Hart price completely in-line with what very well-known and respected companies like GA Precision are charging.


So, even at $2,850 to $3,250 for the gunsmithing fees that IBA/Hart is charging, it's 100% justified and completely in-line with what other companies like GA Precision would charge for a build.

I have to respectfully disagree with you. In no way are the prices even remotely "pretty damn close" in this case.

I just got off the phone with GAP. With all parts supplied GAP they are charging $1,250-1500 to take all of my parts, and return me a build gun with a comparable lead time to IBA (5-6 months from GAP / 5-8 from IBA). Do not get me wrong, I agree that having a "no shit" XM-3 built by Tiny would be absolutely amazing, and as a straight autistic cloner a total dream, but I cannot justify paying double + some for the same work GAP does at half the cost.

 

[Jrb572]

Stupid question what would have been the reasoning for using Titanium over stainless on the recoil lug? It can not save that much weight.

 

[USMCSGT0331]

It's have to respectfully disagree with you. In no way are the prices even remotely "pretty damn close" in this case.

I just got off the phone with GAP. With all parts supplied GAP they are charging $1,250-1500 to take all of my parts, and return me a build gun with a comparable lead time to IBA (5-6 months from GAP / 5-8 from IBA). Do not get me wrong, I agree that having a "no shit" XM-3 built by Tiny would be absolutely amazing, and as a straight autistic cloner a total dream, but I cannot justify paying double + some for the same work GAP does at half the cost.

It's fine to disagree, but remember where my "pretty damn close" price estimate came from. I was comparing the IBA XM3 cost of $2,850 to $3,250 gunsmithing fees and an estimated $6,750 total IBA price to the cost of a GA Precision M40A5 that's priced on their website at $6,334. Looking at those 2 price ESTIMATES, yes, it is pretty damn close. I was going off of the best estimate that I could put together at the time, with information that I found online. That is all. Now that you have updated information, we can discuss that instead.

I'll never tell you what to do with your rifle build, and you are going to do whatever is in your best self interests. GA Precision builds fantastic rifles, they're one of the best rifle companies in the country. Great people, and great rifles! If saving $1,500 on a build is what you feel is best for your rifle and finances, then so be it. I know that you'll truly enjoy the rifle they build for you because it's just going to be a damn good gun, like everything GA Precision makes.

For everyone else, I highly recommend going with IBA to get an actual IBA XM3 built. The $1,500 difference means absolutely nothing to clone builders who want the best clone possible, which means going with IBA. Like what was mentioned in a post above, this is similar to having a USMC 2112 armorer build your rifle down at PWS. PWS provenance for a build will easily add $2,000+ value to a completed rifle, just because it was built at PWS.

Chris Higgins at Red Bull Armory literally developed the Mk13 Mod 7 when he worked at Crane NSWC. Now compare a Mod 7 built by Chris to a Mod 7 built by any other gunsmith (parts on the 2 rifles are the same for this scenario). You'll see that there's added value to the Mod 7 Chris built just because he's the guy who invented the Mod 7, there is provenance with a Chris Higgins built Mk13 Mod 7 that stretches back to the Crane Mod 7's that he originally built. $1,500 more for an IBA build over the cost of gunsmithing on a GA Precision build is completely acceptable for the provenance of having IBA build the XM3.

Future resale values will also reflect this difference, with the IBA XM3 holding it's value far better than the GA Precision rifle. You might save $1,500 now by going with a GA Precision build, but that amount will easily be lost in future resale value, whereas the IBA but XM3 will retain more of it's value. And I'm speaking from first-hand experience, I've owned multiple IBA XM3's, and numerous close friends own or have owned XM3's as well. The civilian XM3 that I sold went up in value, and that's not even an issued USMC XM3.

IBA is the original manufacturer of XM3's, so it's pretty reasonable to assume that they're able to charge a higher price point. A $1,500 difference isn't bad at all, especially when there's companies out there who are currently charging even more than this amount, and they have absolutely no history with any XM3's. And as I've previously mentioned, the original price for an IBA XM3 was $8,541. The current estimate for supplying all your own parts and paying IBA and Hart's gunsmithing fees is right about $6,750 (which can slide a little bit one way or the other depending on the parts you wabt for the build). This is almost $2,000 CHEAPER than what IBA was originally charging for a complete XM3 build! Amd it's an even larger difference when you take inflation into consideration from 2006 to 2014.

These are massive points that XM3 clone builders need to consider, my analysis goes far beyond a simple $1,500 in price. Clone builders have wanted factory IBA builds for the past 2 decades, but there was only a small window of time where it was possible to get one. And people complained about the $8,541 price back then as well, they thought it was too high (and it was due to the price they sold their rifles to the government). Right now, the window to get a factory IBA build is finally back open for the first time in probably 15 years, AND if a customer supplies their own parts their build cost is far cheaper than what the price was for an XM3 18 years ago!

Legit IBA XM3 provenance and the cheapest a real IBA XM3 build has ever been in the entire history of XM3 existence! This is a massive win for clone builders and collectors, and yet people are complaining because a company with absolutely zero XM3 history/provenance is $1,500 less than an actual documented IBA XM3 build. If someone wants to save $1,500 on a build and have a different company build the rifle, have fun and enjoy your rifle. For everyone else, they see the real value in having IBA build their XM3 and they understand the complete history of the XM3 build availability and pricing. In the grand scheme of things, especially in the long run, it's easy to pay the $1,500 difference and have an actual IBA built XM3. It's completely justified, and clone builders have been wishing for this exact scenario for well over a decade, and now it's finally happened!

Your GA Precision XM3 is going to be a wonderful rifle, but it will never be an IBA XM3.

 

[shlouf]

Were Chris Higgins or the PWS armorers charging double the current industry rate to build a rifle? Serious question, as I don’t know what they were charging.


Is IBA doing all the tiny details on these new xm3 builds? Same man-o-war finish, tac welding mag box to receiver, etc.?

 

[Mongoose0311]

Were Chris Higgins or the PWS armorers charging double the current industry rate to build a rifle? Serious question, as I don’t know what they were charging.


Is IBA doing all the tiny details on these new xm3 builds? Same man-o-war finish, tac welding mag box to receiver, etc.?

I paid $1,600 for my A5 to be built.

 

[USMCSGT0331]

Were Chris Higgins or the PWS armorers charging double the current industry rate to build a rifle? Serious question, as I don’t know what they were charging.


Is IBA doing all the tiny details on these new xm3 builds? Same man-o-war finish, tac welding mag box to receiver, etc.?

Chris Higgins charges $750 to $1,000 per Mk13 build, depending on what Mod he's building for you. That price range is much lower price than pretty much any gunsmith! What I'm saying is that the value of his complete Mk13 Mod 7 build is worth more than the exact same rifle built by another gunsmith. So, you're paying less for a build from Chris, and his rifles are the most desirable Mk13's.

As for PWS, the Marines there aren't allowed to charge anything for a rifle build, so technically they can't make any money on a build. PWS Hobby Lobby is about continuing the armorer's training in his off time. It's a way for the armorers to learn new skills from other armorers, and to perfect their craft. This isn't a commercial shop, and it should never be viewed as a commercial shop, ever. All builds done at the PWS Hobby Lobby must be approved by the PWS chain of command. Even though the armorers aren't legally allowed to take money for Hobby Lobby rifles they build, some people still choose to give the Marines a tip to show their appreciation for the build. Sometimes people try to give them money or maybe a bottle of whiskey or whatever because they're extremely thankful to have the build done.

There is no "pricing" for PWS Hobby Lobby builds, since it's not a commercial gunsmithing shop. People shouldn't even say if they gave an armorer a tip to show their appreciation. When people start talking publicly about what they "paid" for an armorer at PWS to build a Hobby Lobby rifle, the PWS brass usually shuts down Hobby Lobby for months to years at a time. If you guys want Hobby Lobby to continue, and possibly have a shot at helping an armorer hone their gunsmithing skills, then everyone needs to stop mentioning any monetary compensation for a Hobby Lobby build! There is no "industry rate" for a PWS Hobby Lobby build.

After a rifle is built at PWS and is in a private collection, then the owner can do what they want with their own property. PWS builds are pretty rare, so collectors typically add up the cost of the parts and tack on a few thousand dollars extra because of the rifle's provenance. No money was supposed to trade hands when the rifle was built, so there are no gunsmithing fees to consider. I've seen people tack on up to $5,000 on top of the parts value for exceptional PWS M40A1 builds. The person who owns the rifle obviously didn't pay $5,000 to have the PWS rifle built, it's just extra value that can be added to the rifle. I've seen some extra amount added to the sales price of just about every PWS build I've seen trade hands between collectors. This price and valuation has nothing to do with the armorer building the rifle at Hobby Lobby. It's sort of like how people will pay over market value for some rifles at CMP auction, for various reasons. They just sell for more.

I hope this helps explain how rifles with specific provenance are more desirable than a similar rifle that doesn't have the same provenance. Some of these builds become extremely valuable, depending on that provenance and the parts used on the rifle build. I'm doing the best I can to explain this stuff. I help connect collectors with each other and I assist with collectors buying/selling items from their collection. So I see a lot of desirable rifles like this trade hands between people. I see what retains value, and what increases in value. High-level collectors pay top dollar for the very best clone builds and original rifles.

 

[macethetemplar]

Were Chris Higgins or the PWS armorers charging double the current industry rate to build a rifle?

Technically speaking the PWS builds are only allowed as a hobby and they are not allowed to charge. It is for honing skills and learning new ones. It is not a commercial shop you can submit orders to and expect wait times. Some 12's would build rifles personally as part of this training and then sell their personal rifle later.

 

[shlouf]

Chris Higgins charges $750 to $1,000 per Mk13 build, depending on what Mod he's building for you. That price range is much lower price than pretty much any gunsmith! What I'm saying is that the value of his complete Mk13 Mod 7 build is worth more than the exact same rifle built by another gunsmith. So, you're paying less for a build from Chris, and his rifles are the most desirable Mk13's.

As for PWS, the Marines there aren't allowed to charge anything for a rifle build, so technically they can't make any money on a build. PWS Hobby Lobby is about continuing the armorer's training in his off time. It's a way for the armorers to learn new skills from other armorers, and to perfect their craft. This isn't a commercial shop, and it should never be viewed as a commercial shop, ever. All builds done at the PWS Hobby Lobby must be approved by the PWS chain of command. Even though the armorers aren't legally allowed to take money for Hobby Lobby rifles they build, some people still choose to give the Marines a tip to show their appreciation for the build. Sometimes people try to give them money or maybe a bottle of whiskey or whatever because they're extremely thankful to have the build done.

There is no "pricing" for PWS Hobby Lobby builds, since it's not a commercial gunsmithing shop. People shouldn't even say if they gave an armorer a tip to show their appreciation. When people start talking publicly about what they "paid" for an armorer at PWS to build a Hobby Lobby rifle, the PWS brass usually shuts down Hobby Lobby for months to years at a time. If you guys want Hobby Lobby to continue, and possibly have a shot at helping an armorer hone their gunsmithing skills, then everyone needs to stop mentioning any monetary compensation for a Hobby Lobby build! There is no "industry rate" for a PWS Hobby Lobby build.

After a rifle is built at PWS and is in a private collection, then the owner can do what they want with their own property. PWS builds are pretty rare, so collectors typically add up the cost of the parts and tack on a few thousand dollars extra because of the rifle's provenance. No money was supposed to trade hands when the rifle was built, so there are no gunsmithing fees to consider. I've seen people tack on up to $5,000 on top of the parts value for exceptional PWS M40A1 builds. The person who owns the rifle obviously didn't pay $5,000 to have the PWS rifle built, it's just extra value that can be added to the rifle. I've seen some extra amount added to the sales price of just about every PWS build I've seen trade hands between collectors. This price and valuation has nothing to do with the armorer building the rifle at Hobby Lobby. It's sort of like how people will pay over market value for some rifles at CMP auction, for various reasons. They just sell for more.

I hope this helps explain how rifles with specific provenance are more desirable than a similar rifle that doesn't have the same provenance. Some of these builds become extremely valuable, depending on that provenance and the parts used on the rifle build. I'm doing the best I can to explain this stuff. I help connect collectors with each other and I assist with collectors buying/selling items from their collection. So I see a lot of desirable rifles like this trade hands between people. I see what retains value, and what increases in value. High-level collectors pay top dollar for the very best clone builds and original rifles.

Interesting about the PWS stuff, thanks for clarifying. I know what you meant about the name behind the builder meaning more though.

My point was in asking if IBA is actually doing anything that much extra to charge 2x the going rate for smith work or if they are charging that much because they know people will pay it simply because of the provenance.

 

[Jrb572]

Two questions

1. How long is the Dewey cleaning rod? I only see 36” and 40” on their site

2. How long is the Dewey bore guide. 10” or 13”? I see it fits in the craftsman case that is 12” long so I am assuming it’s the 10”.

 

[Mongoose0311]

Two questions

1. How long is the Dewey cleaning rod? I only see 36” and 40” on their site

2. How long is the Dewey bore guide. 10” or 13”? I see it fits in the craftsman case that is 12” long so I am assuming it’s the 10”.

 

[Jrb572]

View attachment 8446598View attachment 8446599

Thank you

 

[Jrb572]

The base from PTG showed up a few days ago. It looks really nice.

 

[jtwsw]

@Redwolf505 Once you got the McMillan in, were there any more details on who made the EFR that came with it?

 

[Redwolf505]

@Redwolf505 Once you got the McMillan in, were there any more details on who made the EFR that came with it?

There were no marking on the EFR from McMillan so I do not know who they had as a supplier. The EFR and paperwork were both sterile. I know LRI was making EFRs $325 I think. If they are out, I will have an extra one soon as well as other parts.

 

[Jrb572]

@Redwolf505 Once you got the McMillan in, were there any more details on who made the EFR that came with it?

They refused to tell me who made them when I asked.

 

[jtwsw]

They refused to tell me who made them when I asked.

I was hoping having one in hand would help identify it. I wonder if LRI could confirm if he had sold any of his to McMillan, but if he hasn't I'm now wondering if Sol Strategic is making them. I saw somewhere that McMillan has recommended the Sol EFR for M40A5 builds in the past, and even though there is no XM3 EFR listed on Sol's site there is a picture of one on their homepage. All conjecture at this point, but I would rather have an LRI version if McMillan won't identify theirs since he based his measurements off a real one.

 

[Jrb572]

I was hoping having one in hand would help identify it. I wonder if LRI could confirm if he had sold any of his to McMillan, but if he hasn't I'm now wondering if Sol Strategic is making them. I saw somewhere that McMillan has recommended the Sol EFR for M40A5 builds in the past, and even though there is no XM3 EFR listed on Sol's site there is a picture of one on their homepage. All conjecture at this point, but I would rather have an LRI version if McMillan won't identify theirs since he based his measurements off a real one.

I got lucky that they had a stock for sale without the mount and I purchased my mount LRI.

 

[noremorse92]

Mcmillan has an a1-3 with repro EFR for sale right now on their site

FYI.

 

[Zigjib]

XM-3 is a total vibe. This is as close as I could get but I love it.

 

[noremorse92]

XM-3 is a total vibe. This is as close as I could get but I love it.View attachment 8450080

Sick. I just picked up a stainless 700 5r and it's so tempting to start an xm3 alike build..

 

[Redwolf505]

I think now is a very good time to build an XM3 clone. Lots of parts are available that have not been available for quite some time and IBA will do the gunsmithing which will add tremendous provenance to a build. LRI has EFRs and PTG is making bases.

 

[noremorse92]

I think now is a very good time to build an XM3 clone. Lots of parts are available that have not been available for quite some time and IBA will do the gunsmithing which will add tremendous provenance to a build. LRI has EFRs and PTG is making bases.

But who is making the flash hiders? That is a the hardest part of the whole thing.

 

[USMCSGT0331]

XM-3 is a total vibe. This is as close as I could get but I love it.View attachment 8450080

Very nice build! Sometimes all we can hope for is to get as close to military clone correct as possible. Some parts are so ridiculously rare and expensive, they are next to impossible to acquire. That version of the EFR is actually correct for the police and other civilian XM3 builds, just not the specific USMC version. Your XM3 clone looks great, I hope you enjoy shooting it!

 

[Sisq longgun]

the flash hider on the left is one I just prototyped. 416r stainless steel, heat treated to 43-46rc. The part on the right is the example part I got from IBA. Not selling anything. I am a bit of a cloner nerd and am just happy as a pig in shit to be making parts like this.

 

[RIGREG]

This would make a good donor. It’s close to the SN range posted by USMCSGT0331, and has a Marine Infantry MOS built in.

I guess those would be Canadian proof marks.

I won’t give out the listing right now, just in case a SH member has already seen it and is trying to make the purchase. I have no interest. Just came across it looking for M40 six digit donors.

Greg

 

[Sisq longgun]

Does PTG have any XM3 lugs? I actually asked Sabien about these PTG XM3 scope rails as well, especially since they're marked with Iron Brigade Armory on top of them. Sabien said that they're actually working with PTG on these XM3 scope bases, so they're legit and are made to 100% original XM3 specs! So, it's great that you bought the titanium version from them, it's EXACTLY what you need for your build! I have no idea about the recoil lug, but try looking on PTG's website or asking them if they are making those as well. I'll ask Sabien what the best route is for the recoil lug the next time it talk to him. It's good to hear that you're moving along with acquiring your XM3 build parts! I think I have a message or 2 from you as well in my inbox, I'll take a look at that later today and hit you back.

Ptg has titanium xm3 recoil lugs. Also have repro flash hider suppressor adapters too.

 

[noremorse92]

Ptg has titanium xm3 recoil lugs. Also have repro flash hider suppressor adapters too.

Thanks dude for the heads up. I just ordered a flash hider. I doubt I'll do a full clone, probably an XM3 'ish' type build. Eventually.

 

[Redwolf505]

I have a lot of XM3 parts that I will be listing for sale soon, enough for at least 2 full builds I think. Then also extra mounts and such for anyone interested.

 

[AJB]

Marc at Spartan is making a couple of XM-3s and M40s for some customers, this mine he just wrapped up.

If anyone wants, I have a Badger M-4 bottom metal and one steel sling swivel for the bipod both are new, just DM me.

 

[caseyoc]

I have a lot of XM3 parts that I will be listing for sale soon, enough for at least 2 full builds I think. Then also extra mounts and such for anyone interested.

For some reason I can't send you a PM. Can you send me a PM? I would be interested in a scope base and nv mount. Thanks.

 

[noremorse92]

Hey guys. Going down the rabbit hole myself here. Not going exact but pretty close.

Anyone know which length of AWS sling was issued?

Does anyone have the specs for the barrel contour? Including the turned down section at the end for the hider. I can't find anything 'exact' so to speak like a drawing.

 

[noremorse92]

Got the PTG repro flash hider in hand today. Looks great. Color isn't correct but that's fine. No issues ordering from them. I have their repro v2 EFR on order now too.

 

[03MC11]

Kurt owner of KI Precision in NJ built mine. He's very familiar with the weapon system, fair priced and builds alot of rifles in the PRS community that are very competitive. He's also involved with the Marine shooting team.

https://ki-precision.com