Sidearms & Scatterguns Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Spazz.

Spazz.

Nobody Nothing
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 14, 2008
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Franklin County, KY
#1
...but maybe not in the traditional sense. I decided yesterday I need a good weapon that I can shove in my pocket, carry in-waistband, or stick it wherever else I feel comfortable with (holstered, of course) when I don't want to carry around a bulky double-stack. I looked at some compact semi-autos like KelTecs, the S&W BG .380, and the Ruger LC9. I just don't like the .380 auto, and I already keep 9mm on hand so that ruled out most of the KelTecs, the S&W, and the LCP for me. None of them felt good in my hand, and I knew I wouldn't want to practice with them the way I do my (haha, full size?) compact semi-auto.

So the counter guy handed me a S&W 442, 340PD, and M&P340. One of these will be my next purchase, of that I'm fairly sure. I liked the way they all felt and pointed for me. I like the way they fit and draw from a pocket holster. I like the front night sight on the M&P340, and I like the simplicity (and no internal lock) of the 442. I'm not overwhelmed by the 340PD, and didn't see any real benefit to having it over one of the other two.

The 340PD is $860, the M&P340 is $740, and the 442 is $380 in my local gun shop. The way I see it, I'd be paying almost $400 more for a .357 over a .38 if I went with the 340PD, so that one's ruled out. I know cost shouldn't be a deciding factor when choosing a weapon, but I can almost get 2 442s for the price of the M&P340. I just don't know if I want to pay that much more for a front night sight and a "bigger" caliber.

I wouldn't be carrying this where capacity would give me an advantage, I'm not planning on being in any pitch-black alleys on the wrong side of town; I will primarily have it in my pocket at the gas pump or with me for a quick trip at the grocery store. Any other time I'll probably still have the semi-auto that goes to eleven plus a spare mag and night sights.

<span style="font-weight: bold">My question is this</span>: When shooting, do you find any <span style="font-style: italic">real</span> advantage to a .357 over a .38 +P out of a snubby? I train for quick, accurate shot placement and carry good ammunition in my weapons. I'm not interested in FBI tests on ballistics or the effectiveness of a .454 over the other two calibers mentioned. I just want to know if you personally have found any advantage to a .357 bullet over a .38 bullet or vice-versa. Thanks for your inputs.
 
#2
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

If you can't hit with it, it doesn't matter if you have a 22 or a 105mm

The decision is yours, well placed shots from a 22 that are quick and on target will have far more effect than if you miss using an entire cylinder from a 480 Ruger.

Get a couple boxes of each and try it out, shoot how you'd train normally and see what works out better.

THe 38 is a good round with modern self defense ammo.
 
#3
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

If you have to have a J-frame type pistol, just shoot 38s. The advantage of .357 Magnum doesn't make up for the shock and awe of the report, muzzle flash, and abusive (in comparison) recoil. Without looking up model numbers, I'm going to assume that the pistols that you're considering are at least partially made out of some light and wonderful new-fangled metal that is supposed to represent an advantage in the pocket or on the hip. I really can't say enough about having something substantial in the hand to help smooth out the recoil, and if it were me I'd forget about a J-frame in the pocket and go to at least a 3" K-frame in the waistband. Nonetheless, you want to conveniently shove something in your pocket.
 
#4
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Staying true to your original question....

I see a HUGE difference in 38 vs 357 out of a snubby. My current job has me on the range with LE about 100 days out of the year with handguns. About half of my drills are on steel targets and I like to use steel knock down poppers. The poppers are set up to drop after 2-3 "high center" shots with a .40 S&W, that is the issued duty weapon for my agency. Many officers carry a snubby for back up or off duty. Those carrying the 38 have a very difficult time dropping the steel poppers, those who shoot the 357 drop the poppers in 2-3 rounds.

Additionally, the ballistic testing we have witnessed showed us that snub 38 require specific loads to perform properly (ie; expansion and penetration). I stopped carrying my Taurus 38 snubby because of the lack of power it provides me. If you must carry a snubby go with the 357.
 
#5
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

What I would do is try both and see what happens.

Get a little snubby in 357, set up a target, see how fast you can empty the gun and how well you can hit with it.

Now try the same thing with a snubby in 38. Compare the times and scores.

Now get a couple big city phone books, soak them in water. Shoot both guns (using a simular type bullet) into the phone books, compare the bullets shape and penitration.

Guess what, you will see a big difference in the speed/accuracy test, but you wont see a whole lot of difference in the phone books.

Yeah you can set poppers up where a 38 wont knock them over, you can even set them up where you can't know them over with a 44 Mag. But I've never shot a match where I can't knock over poppers with my 2 in 642 in 38.

I like 357s, I carried a Model 28 most of my 20 years in LE. I love that gun. I can shoot it fairly well. But its a heck of a lot heavier then my 642.

It doesn't make much difference shooting my Model 28 in 38 or 357. It would make a hell of a lot of difference shooting a little snubby in 357.

I'm not you, you're not me, so try them both out and see what works for you.
 
#6
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I own a S&W 340M&P and I've shot it with full house .357 loads, it is not a pleasant experience. I do carry it with .357 ammo but the majority of my practice is with .38's. I like having the option of carrying either but it sounds like you're not find of the price tag.

I carried a S$W 342 titanium .38 for years as a backup gun. I was never worried about it being underpowered to accomplish the task. Shot placement is everything.
 
#7
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Since you already have 9mm in the inventory, you might also be interested in the Taurus 9mm j-frames.

A bit more snot than the 38 Spl, but not as bad as the 357 in a small revolver.
 
#8
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I have the S&W 638 airweight and have been impressed with the gun but I am now thinking of switching to the Taurus version of it in 357 for the simple fact that I will have access to a wider range of ammunition when the zombies begin their mating dance.

I have tried a few scenarios with 38 JHP and feel that it will protect me adequately. Afterall, it is going to be used in a hurry and at close range. If I can place the shot at 7 yards that is all that matters.

I know folks take a stance that bad guys wear layers of clothing and bulky coats but most bad guys arn't heros....they see a gun and they scurry back into the hole they came from and will not stick around to see if their Goodwill coat will limit the penetration of what round I have loaded.

I guess the main thing is to carry something that you feel comfortable with and that you will carry it.
 
#9
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I carry the 642 almost every day. It was $360. You decide.
smile.gif
 
#10
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I would do is try both and see what happens.

Get a little snubby in 357, set up a target, see how fast you can empty the gun and how well you can hit with it.

Now try the same thing with a snubby in 38. Compare the times and scores.

Now get a couple big city phone books, soak them in water. Shoot both guns (using a simular type bullet) into the phone books, compare the bullets shape and penitration.

Guess what, you will see a big difference in the speed/accuracy test, but you wont see a whole lot of difference in the phone books.

Yeah you can set poppers up where a 38 wont knock them over, you can even set them up where you can't know them over with a 44 Mag. But I've never shot a match where I can't knock over poppers with my 2 in 642 in 38.

I like 357s, I carried a Model 28 most of my 20 years in LE. I love that gun. I can shoot it fairly well. But its a heck of a lot heavier then my 642.

It doesn't make much difference shooting my Model 28 in 38 or 357. It would make a hell of a lot of difference shooting a little snubby in 357.

I'm not you, you're not me, so try them both out and see what works for you.</div></div>

The answer is simple do i want to shoot someone with a fast lighter bullet or alot heavier fast bullet. With the 357 mag a center of mass hit will produce so much more shock and trama a follow up shot on the same target is not needed. And a much higher probability of a DOA result.

If you are concerned with controlability of a follow up shot a Kahr k40 carries and conceals nicely. I prefer a flat profile of a carry piece.
 
#11
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Look at it this way. Everyone talks about pistol stopping power, Dead right there, stopped in their tracks, etc. etc.

Now think about you deer hunting. We are all taught to shoot the deer in the heart lung area. Find, but how many times have we seen a deer hit with, lets say a 30-06, in the heart lung area. It often runs 20 - 50 yards or futher before it drops, Sure its dead, but it still runs.

Deer normally are smaller then bandits, yet they run away when hit propertly. Why do we think we can expect any hand gun round to do better.

So I'd worry more about my ability to get good shots, and good fast follow up shots when I think of a carry round.

I also spend a lot more time carrying my SD revolver then I do shooting it.

Choose accordingly.
 
#14
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the 357 mag a center of mass hit will produce so much more shock and trama a follow up shot on the same target is not needed.</div></div>

Take in a few autopsy's and get back with me. The only guarantee you'll get in shooting any round, rifle or pistol, magnum or standard, is you never know what the round is going to do.

As I mentioned, if you get a good heart/lung shot on a deer with a '06 or other normal hunting round, and it runs 50 yards before it goes down, how can you say a 357 will not need a follow up shot.

It may or it may not, same with shooting deer with rifles, hit them in the heart/lung area, the may go down, and they may not. You never know.
 
#15
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I have the 340 PD and will never shoot .357s in it again. It is more than unpleasant, it is painful. Scandium framed revolvers and .357s dont make a good couple. The 442 is your best deal, or a Model 60 in .357 if you want the hotter load. SS is heavy which is a negative for pocket carry, but a plus for shooting .357.
 
#16
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DWood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the 340 PD and will never shoot .357s in it again. It is more than unpleasant, it is painful. Scandium framed revolvers and .357s dont make a good couple. The 442 is your best deal, or a Model 60 in .357 if you want the hotter load. SS is heavy which is a negative for pocket carry, but a plus for shooting .357. </div></div>

I want to shoot magnums through one of those 340s one day just to see. It's got to be pretty brutal. Even +Ps in my 15 ounce gun hurt. It's not fun to shoot at all.
 
#17
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Just something else to throw in the mix... I saw my first Diamondback DB9 (average street price around $350) at my local gun club a couple of weeks ago. The range owner carries it daily and says he's been well-pleased with it, and this fellow knows his firearms. As far as .357 vs .38SPL, for a snubbie I tend towards the .38 side of the house.
 
#19
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Im lookin to purchase a pistol, its either gonna be a Sig P229 or a H&K USP. but the problem i run into is that when it comes to automatic rounds i know next to nothing, i do know my revolver rounds well. Heres the question 10mm, .357 Sig, .40S&W or .45ACP? Things to consider: this is for personal defense, i wont carry a 9mm, easy reloading, penetration, price. I currently carry a .357mag so recoil and control i think i can handle.

All input is encouraged and welcomed
 
#20
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

.357 magnum in a snubby is a handful. Have you looked at a Glock 26 for carry? It is remarkably easy to control with 124 gr +P 9mm ammo.
 
#21
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

rtr - get either of those in a .45acp. Overall, you can't beat it. ShtrRdy, I don't want to carry a Glock. I don't shoot them as well and the little revolver feels much better in my hand than a block of wood. No offense to Glock - the 17 was the first handgun I purchased and I really enjoy it - but it's not my choice for a carry gun.

I think what I'm going to end up with is a 442 with .38 +P loaded in it. I just don't feel that I can get better follow-up shots with .357 in a snubby than I can with .38, and accuracy is more important to me than BOOM factor. Thanks for all your inputs and opinions, and for those of you touting bigger guns and the .357 cartridge, I'm probably going to end up with a 5" .357 down the line somewhere. Thanks again everyone!
 
#22
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I have experience with both.

the 340 carries better due to weight. the 442 shoots better due to weight.
smile.gif


drop me a pm if you'd like to try them sometime

hth,
LM
 
#25
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I have shot a S&W scandium 2" barrel .357 that weighed 12 ounces with rubber grips, 11 ounces with wood ones. I have also shot an S&W airweight Chief's Special, which also weighed about 12 ounces.

I am 6'8" tall, 324 pounds, at 11% body fat. I bench press 525 pounds. I shoot .500 S&Ws, .454 Casulls, and 4" barreled S&W 629 .44 Magnums extensively, and I do not mind the recoil of them at all. I have stated the foregoing so that you will understand exactly where I am coming from when I say that, after 1 cylinder from the scandium .357, I do not want to fire it again. The .38 was not bad at all, by comparison. In the 12 ounce weight range, I would stick with the .38. Rapid follow-up shots may be a necessity, with either caliber, and with such a lightweight .357, I do not think you will be able to shoot accurately anywhere near as quickly as with a .38 weighing the same.

If you want a .357, I would suggest you get one that weighs at least 23 ounces.

If you are going to get a 23 oz. gun, there are many better ones (in other calibers), in my opinion, from which to choose.
 
#26
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Thanks, you guys who've just chimed in. That further cements my decision and thank you for providing the real-world feedback I asked for. Before I go pick one up for sure, Luvman, I may take you up on your offer. Thanks again everyone!
 
#29
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rtr mXIV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im lookin to purchase a pistol, its either gonna be a Sig P229 or a H&K USP. but the problem i run into is that when it comes to automatic rounds i know next to nothing, i do know my revolver rounds well. Heres the question 10mm, .357 Sig, .40S&W or .45ACP? Things to consider: this is for personal defense, i wont carry a 9mm, easy reloading, penetration, price. I currently carry a .357mag so recoil and control i think i can handle.

All input is encouraged and welcomed </div></div>


And 9mm isn't an option why? you can push 9mm as fast as .357sig. and in many cases you increase your capacity by 2-5 by going with 9mm. I would go with a HK p30 9,or .40 over the 229, I carried a 229 for 4 years and prefer the HK.
 
#30
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomahawk84</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rtr mXIV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im lookin to purchase a pistol, its either gonna be a Sig P229 or a H&K USP. but the problem i run into is that when it comes to automatic rounds i know next to nothing, i do know my revolver rounds well. Heres the question 10mm, .357 Sig, .40S&W or .45ACP? Things to consider: this is for personal defense, i wont carry a 9mm, easy reloading, penetration, price. I currently carry a .357mag so recoil and control i think i can handle.

All input is encouraged and welcomed </div></div>


And 9mm isn't an option why? you can push 9mm as fast as .357sig. and in many cases you increase your capacity by 2-5 by going with 9mm. I would go with a HK p30 9,or .40 over the 229, I carried a 229 for 4 years and prefer the HK. </div></div>

You should probably make your own thread. I also agree with the poster immediately above. I would seriously consider 9mm as a carry round and second choice would be .45. I also second not getting a Sig as they are horrendous as of late.
 
#31
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Just to throw more salt in the equation. I am not sure why you are waving away the 380acp but are considering the 38 special? They basically have the exact same ft/lb energy and you usually are able to carry more ammo in the 380 variety than a 38 revolver.

Since pretty much a 38/380acp have the same terminal effects i will throw in that the 380 was the official side arm of most European countries for decades and they sure killed plenty of people with that round. And just as many people have been dropped by the good old 38 by our boys in the blue since it was the official side arm for most police departments in the US from the late 1920s to the late 1980s.
 
#32
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I'm primarily throwing away the .380 because I don't like any of the weapons I've handled that are chambered for .380. In order to get one that feels good, I may as well purchase the same pistol in 9mm (for which I wouldn't have to start a whole new collection of ammunition). Also, in my area I have no problems finding .38 +p or umpteen other variations on .38 practice rounds. The .380 ammunition is more difficult to find in stores around here for some reason.

I don't plan on capacity being an issue if the weapon ever has to be used in a self-defense situation, as the areas I'll be carrying this in won't be far from either escape or cover. In any areas that will find me too far from a familiar area, vehicle, or exit I'll still be carrying the .40 with 10+1 and an extra 10 round mag, as I am accustomed. Thanks for your input, as it's always good to really think things through instead of just waving something away based on misconceptions or anecdotal hearsay.
 
#33
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have to have a J-frame type pistol, just shoot 38s. The advantage of .357 Magnum doesn't make up for the shock and awe of the report, muzzle flash, and abusive (in comparison) recoil. Without looking up model numbers, I'm going to assume that the pistols that you're considering are at least partially made out of some light and wonderful new-fangled metal that is supposed to represent an advantage in the pocket or on the hip. I really can't say enough about having something substantial in the hand to help smooth out the recoil, and if it were me I'd forget about a J-frame in the pocket and go to at least a 3" K-frame in the waistband. Nonetheless, you want to conveniently shove something in your pocket. </div></div>

damn good...I would only add that if "shove" is going to stay....buy an all steel J-Frame, reload .38 hollow base wad cutters backwards into the shell and practice without sight acquisition for 20 feet.

exp_38HBWC.jpg


"Bullet #1 was loaded with the hollow base down, as normal. Penetration was far too great and there was no expansion.

Bullet #2 was loaded backward, but the bullet hit solid bone. There was no "fluid" to effect an opening of the hollow cavity, so the cavity collapsed and the bullet nose "self forged" into a spire point. Expansion was to 0.625" with very sharp cutting edges, and penetration was not excessive.

Bullet #3 was loaded backward and fired into fluid with no solid object hit (a "gut shot"). Hydraulic effect in the hollow cavity resulted in expansion to 0.694", and penetration was 6". The hydrostatic shock of this bullet is incredible, and there was <span style="text-decoration: underline">full transfer of 200 ft. lbs</span> of energy within 6" of bullet impact travel.

Bullet #4 was loaded backward and first hit soft tissue and fluid, then hit hard bone. The hydraulic effect opened the hollow cavity which was then further expanded by contact with a hard object. Expansion was to 0.800" with sharp cutting edges. <span style="text-decoration: underline">This is almost twice the diameter of a .45 ACP bullet</span> - and the sharp edges combined with the rotational aspect imparted by the rifling <span style="text-decoration: underline">had a cutting power not possible with a non expanding round nose 0.452" bullet</span> at the same velocity."

Spend more time with your round construction, you will be rewarded...

The following was classic passage and should be mandatory reading for execs at S&W....

"I am 6'8" tall, 324 pounds, at 11% body fat. I bench press 525 pounds. I shoot .500 S&Ws, .454 Casulls, and 4" barreled S&W 629 .44 Magnums extensively, and I do not mind the recoil of them at all. I have stated the foregoing so that you will understand exactly where I am coming from when I say that, after 1 cylinder from the scandium .357, I do not want to fire it again"

I, too, own it and load .38s now.

..
 
#34
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm primarily throwing away the .380 because I don't like any of the weapons I've handled that are chambered for .380. In order to get one that feels good, I may as well purchase the same pistol in 9mm (for which I wouldn't have to start a whole new collection of ammunition). Also, in my area I have no problems finding .38 +p or umpteen other variations on .38 practice rounds. The .380 ammunition is more difficult to find in stores around here for some reason.

I don't plan on capacity being an issue if the weapon ever has to be used in a self-defense situation, as the areas I'll be carrying this in won't be far from either escape or cover. In any areas that will find me too far from a familiar area, vehicle, or exit I'll still be carrying the .40 with 10+1 and an extra 10 round mag, as I am accustomed. Thanks for your input, as it's always good to really think things through instead of just waving something away based on misconceptions or anecdotal hearsay. </div></div>


I can definitely see your reasoning. I own a few 380s that i carry as a back up gun. They dont get shot nearly as much as my 9mm. Needless to say they are a BUG. I may put 200-300 rounds thru my 9mm in a session but a mag or two in the 380 is enough. In the same sense, (i may be wrong) but you aren't going to practice with the 38spl 200 rounds at at time. You also need to consider that the transition from one semi-auto to another semi-auto is much much easier than if you used to shooting your .40 90% of the time and a DA revolver the other 10% of the time.

I dont buy ammo at Walmart or momma pop stores. There are plenty of places on line that you can buy your 380 enough for practice a couple of mags here and there and have a couple of boxes of defensive rounds for when you are carrying.

As far as the gun itself, the S&W 380 Bodyguard really fits well, shoots well and is compact as hell. It is hard to beat it. Going anything smaller than that makes a terrible shooting experience. I waited 9 months and took possession of a Seacamp 380 and god it was painful to shoot. I am not recoil sensitive but the first time i shot it the trigger guard cut my hand. I gave it to one of the big burly guys that run the gun range, he shot is one round and handed it to me and said "Fuck that" lol. Also, going bigger than something like the Ruger LCP or the Bodyguard 380, as you mentioned you might as well get a 9mm such as the Walther PPS and such.
 
#35
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I carry a 642 in my pocket while on duty everyday. With +P ammo the recoil is stout but manageable and I shoot it well. That being said, I have no misconceptions about what it is- a pistol round and all pistol rounds are inferior, don't let anyone tell you different.

Hollywood has been the culprit of serious misconceptions that too many people take as gospel. I think this cannot be said enough- Handgun wounds are highly survivable and handguns themselves are mediocre at best in killing people.

Having several years of patrol time in a large metro police department, I have seen my fair share of people surviving upper body hits from handguns, everything from .25 auto to the "man stopper" .45 acp.

My favorite was the gang banger who had just taken a 40s&w in the chest (which lodged in his spine) and he walked out to my patrol car with the bullet still there (inoperable and non life threatening). When I asked him if he was concerned about being shot he simply showed me his 9 other scars from being shot.

The only thing I have seen that works well in regards to a handgun is making multiple hits on the target- the more holes the better.

.38 or .357 are both decent choices...you will only feel the recoil when you practice.

Jethro
 
#37
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

I owned a S&W 442 (15oz) and a Taurus CIA .357 (24oz). Shooting .357 out of 24oz gun was not much fun. Shooting .38spl +p out of the 15oz 442 was very manageable. I sold the .357 as it was about twice as heavy as the 442 and I would only load .38spl +p in it anyway.

A short time after I bought the 442 the M&P 340PD came out, and I have really been looking at this revolver for two reasons. Better sights and a little bit lighter (I would still load .38spl +p and not .357). My main complaint about the 442 is the sights on it and the lack to upgrade them. Many guys put a crimson trace laser on them but now you just added $300 to a $400 revolver. I would prefer the M&P 340PD then a 442 with CT grips.

I think the J-Frame revolver is the perfect pocket,BUG,deep concealment carry gun. Now you just have to figure out which one you like the best. The 442 is a solid weapon, but I would look hard at the M&P 340PD.
 
#38
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

LCR. Skip the smith, save the money.

I've been down this road and spend money like it's endless. Never smiled as much when I dropped a gun onto concrete or mistreated it as much. And it kept on going.

Buffalo Bore makes some mean 38 loads for it as well.
 
#40
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

9mm is off the table because i have seen 9mm rounds fail multiple times. my dad was in law enforcement and wouldnt carry a 9mm for lack of stopping power and he said he saw round bounce of windshields
 
#41
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

im really trying to stay away from the 9mm. Although i do agree with you, after some research i clearly realized that .357sig isnt the round for me and it seem not to live up to the expectations i had for it. Im really interested in 10mm but havent been able to find much info on the round that i find useful
 
#44
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rtr mXIV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9mm is off the table because i have seen 9mm rounds fail multiple times. my dad was in law enforcement and wouldnt carry a 9mm for lack of stopping power and he said he saw round bounce of windshields</div></div>

Are you for real? First of all, ammo has changed significantly in the last 25 years, so your dad's experiences aren't all apples to apples. Second, no handgun round does a particularly good job through windshield glass. Shoot someone in the head with a 9mm, place the shot where it's supposed to be, and then tell me if it's effective or not.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rtr mXIV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im really trying to stay away from the 9mm. Although i do agree with you, after some research i clearly realized that .357sig isnt the round for me and it seem not to live up to the expectations i had for it. Im really interested in 10mm but havent been able to find much info on the round that i find useful</div></div>

What do you want to know about the 10mm? It's hard on guns, ammo isn't the most plentiful, it has a loyal cult following, was originally chambered in the Bren Ten (magazines are rare as hens teeth), it's good on 4 legged predators, 175gr Winchester Silvertip lists a muzzle velocity of 1290 fps and 649 ft. lbs. (not sure what the test barrel length). FBI adopted it after the the 1986 incident, couldn't handle it, had it downloaded, and some enterprising individuals hacked off the extra case length and gave the us .40S&W. Anything else you want to know?
 
#46
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

Sorry to say, but I'll take 1911acp full of Federal 185gr. hydroshoks.
38/357's are fun to shoot but I would choose not to use them for self defense. Of course, I would not like to be shot by either one!!!
What it all boils down to is shoot what you are comfortable with and shoot it often. Having a paint brush does not make you an artist! Training and practice does. Without the necessary training and practice your pistol might as well be a brick!
It is Friday and the sun is up...going to take my own advice and hit the range!
 
#47
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

There was a story running around our unit for a long time about an old Sergeant Major sitting in an Army conference about bullet size, weight, caliber, velocity, etc. when the ole SGM had enough and stood up and said
"This is bullshit, I have killed men with a .223. 30 cal, 9mm, .45 none of that shit matters, it is where you put the bullet that matters" and with that he got up and walked out to go train.
 
#48
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krm375</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was a story running around our unit for a long time about an old Sergeant Major sitting in an Army conference about bullet size, weight, caliber, velocity, etc. when the ole SGM had enough and stood up and said
"This is bullshit, I have killed men with a .223. 30 cal, 9mm, .45 none of that shit matters, it is where you put the bullet that matters" and with that he got up and walked out to go train. </div></div>

Someone was killed in Baghdad last spring with a 32ACP. One round.

Shot placement is more reliable as an indicator of a bullets likelihood of causing fatality than power or diameter.
 
#49
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krm375</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was a story running around our unit for a long time about an old Sergeant Major sitting in an Army conference about bullet size, weight, caliber, velocity, etc. when the ole SGM had enough and stood up and said
"This is bullshit, I have killed men with a .223. 30 cal, 9mm, .45 none of that shit matters, it is where you put the bullet that matters" and with that he got up and walked out to go train. </div></div>



Someone was killed in Baghdad last spring with a 32ACP. One round.

Shot placement is more reliable as an indicator of a bullets likelihood of causing fatality than power or diameter. </div></div>I do believe that falls under software. Does it not? lol
 
#50
Re: Yes, I'm starting a caliber debate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krm375</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was a story running around our unit for a long time about an old Sergeant Major sitting in an Army conference about bullet size, weight, caliber, velocity, etc. when the ole SGM had enough and stood up and said
"This is bullshit, I have killed men with a .223. 30 cal, 9mm, .45 none of that shit matters, it is where you put the bullet that matters" and with that he got up and walked out to go train. </div></div>

I tend to agree...shot placement is key. Select a reliable firearm and caliber with ammunition that you are comfortable shooting and carrying, and then go out and spend time training with it. The biggest baddest handgun on the planet won't stop a threat if you can't hit it.
 
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