Rifle Scopes Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

[SPDSNYPR]

OK - you have $2000 absolute max to spend on a riflescope for a Larue OBR 18" .308. This will be a work rifle. You will be using it as a tac team sniper, and most of your deployments are within 100 yards. A good FOV at close range is more important than long-range work, but you want it to be decent out to 600. Mil/mil is preferable. I'm not completely sold on FFP - I don't like how small the crosshairs get when you dial down to minumum power (like trying to cover the entry team as they approach). Illuminated reticles help in that regard, but batteries can fail. Since the OBR is already big and heavy, lighter might be better.

What are your opinions for a single, one-time purchase? Just the scope. Rifle, bipod, rings, all the ammo you want are already there.

Ideas?

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

For what it's worth, I would recommend the Nightforce 2.5-10x32 zs, mildot. I have one on my lmt 308 and I like it a lot. I find it works great for my 100 to 700 yd work. C291 should be the item #.

edit--- I didn't even think about the 3.5-15 f1 mlr. its a mil/mil scope that would also work. But I think for urban use the 2.5 would be a better choice.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

NF F1. Call around and you can get one for well inside your price range with LE discount. Try calling NF directly too.

 

[Northland]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

That 2.5-10 NF would probably be your best bet. We dont use those but we also didnt have a choice on our optics. 3.5-15 would work too

 

[Lowe Left]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Seems to me FFP would be a must for your application. If you're dialed down in power for better FOV and a threat appears, wouldn't you want to be able to engage with hold-over/under? I don't shoot the AR platforms, so I can't offer opinions on those type of optics, but FFP seems to be a logical must have.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowe Left</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems to me FFP would be a must for your application. If you're dialed down in power for better FOV and a threat appears, wouldn't you want to be able to engage with hold-over/under? I don't shoot the AR platforms, so I can't offer opinions on those type of optics, but FFP seems to be a logical must have. </div></div>

You're assuming you can see the reticle. I've noted several instances (I have a Leupold M5 FFP and a Weaver Tactical FFP illuminated) where when dialed down, the hashes or dots become almost invisible. Add stress, low light, etc - things stack up against it. If the outer part of the reticle were thicker, that would help a bunch. But they're not. Seeing the mil-dots or hashes down low is almost impossible - seeing the reticle at all is hard enough.

I have to consider the likelihood of a 25 yard shot being infinitely more likey than a 200 yard shot.

 

[RGraff]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

I have the NF 3.5-15 on my work rifle and, in my opinion, even at 3.5 the FOV is too small. The last 4 or so deployments found my hide well within 60 yards of the structure and to say I felt hampered by my choice of scope would be an understatement. I don't know that I'd feel comfortable with the 2.5 to be honest. Seriously considering a 1.5-5 on this rifle, then set up a dedicated "long range" rig for other applications.

 

[Lowe Left]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowe Left</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems to me FFP would be a must for your application. If you're dialed down in power for better FOV and a threat appears, wouldn't you want to be able to engage with hold-over/under? I don't shoot the AR platforms, so I can't offer opinions on those type of optics, but FFP seems to be a logical must have. </div></div>

You're assuming you can see the reticle. I've noted several instances (I have a Leupold M5 FFP and a Weaver Tactical FFP illuminated) where when dialed down, the hashes or dots become almost invisible. Add stress, low light, etc - things stack up against it. If the outer part of the reticle were thicker, that would help a bunch. But they're not. Seeing the mil-dots or hashes down low is almost impossible - seeing the reticle at all is hard enough.

I have to consider the likelihood of a 25 yard shot being infinitely more likey than a 200 yard shot. </div></div>

Understood and valid point. I still would want to know that I could hold under, or over (that 25 yard shot) no matter what magnification I'm on. Good luck with your choice, I'm sure you'll get better advice from those that know.

 

[shane45]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

USO 1.8-10.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Get a 3.5-15x50 F1 and a T1.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

The new SS 1-6

Live large and the US Optics 1-8

 

[KM375]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Call leupold and get the new mk 6 3-18 probably get a decent LE discount, your choice of a few reticles. Only issue, they are not supposed to be out for a few months.

edit: The larger Obj. lens would help to gather light in low light situations if you don't have Night Vision

 

[redirt78]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The new SS 1-6

Live large and the US Optics 1-8 </div></div>

Here are some great reticle pics that Jon A posted in his SS 1-6 review.
This is one of the reticle options they might offer (hope so, looks awesome)



Circle:
______________________________
<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">100 YDS</span>

________________________________
<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">300 YDS</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The circle reticle kicks ass. Having the circle go completely out of the FOV makes a big difference. On 6X it looks like any other mid or high power tactical scope set on 6X, with no horseshoe covering the target, no big dot covering your aiming point, no generic BDC, etc. I think that's what a lot of people are looking for in a "dual role" scope for long range use. It's better for low light as well with the illumination only lighting the center with no big posts or circle lit up washing out the picture.
</div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">LINK TO JON A's THREAD <---</span>

 

[Chiller]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

All the magnification people are talking about seem to miss where he said the majority of his shots are 100 yards or less.

Please firgive the ignorance. I think the furthest shot made by a police sniper is in the 2-250 yard range? I guy in VA if memory serves?

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Yes figure that most every shot you take is 100yds or less, so less is more in these cases! Less magnification for a broader field of view, as most of the time you are more of an observer than you are a shooter! I run a PST 4-16, mostly because it gives me a fairly broad field of view, but I can dial up the magnification if I need to take a shot that is farther out. We shoot to 600yds in training, but I've never ran into an instance where there would possibly be a shot of more than 100yds. Generally it will be much less. FFP is not essential to a SWAT type operation because of the range. The reticle is small at less magnification and I think a guy could be well serve by a 2 or 3-10x magnification if that is all that the rifle is being used for. I use my own personal rifle and it gets used for other activities as well. My department rifle has an older model Leupold 3-9x40 tactical and it has served very well.

 

[BCP]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Leupold 10X variants are probably the most widely accepted and you can get a discount. If you can sell your department on NF 2.5-10 that is a better scope though. Pretty sure the base 2.5-10 model with MOA reticule and 10MOA per turn knobs is 1200MAP price.

 

[3fingervic]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

I like the Nightforce F1 for your work.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cds7221</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For what it's worth, I would recommend the Nightforce 2.5-10x32 zs, mildot. I have one on my lmt 308 and I like it a lot. I find it works great for my 100 to 700 yd work. C291 should be the item #.</div></div>

I think the first answer is the best so far imho. I agree with the OP that holdovers aren't really a huge concern in an LEO scope. Seeing the reticle and a large FOV are. SFP 2.5-10 NXS gets my vote too.

J

 

[223ai]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cds7221</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For what it's worth, I would recommend the Nightforce 2.5-10x32 zs, mildot. I have one on my lmt 308 and I like it a lot. I find it works great for my 100 to 700 yd work. C291 should be the item #.</div></div>

I think the first answer is the best so far imho. I agree with the OP that holdovers aren't really a huge concern in an LEO scope. Seeing the reticle and a large FOV are. SFP 2.5-10 NXS gets my vote too.

J</div></div>

My vote too. I'm no sniper, but most of my hunting shots are 100 yards and below (40-85 yards), and the NF 2.5-10 mil/mil ZS is on my deer/hog rifle. Absolutely perfect with regards to FOV and flexibility, in my opinion. The reticule is nice too, as it's a hollow mil-dot and allows for less reticle "clutter".

 

[Timl]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

I would think a trijicon ACOG would be perfect for this application. 3 to 4 power with illuminated crosshair reticle. I think this would give you a good field of view and the ability to holdover with some accuracy out to 200 yards.
Tim

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

I had no trouble taking a 30 yard shot with a 6-20X scope. I have run a USO 3.2-17X for four years and can't remember dialing down below 10X on an operation with it. We are 95% urban and getting beyond 60 yards is usually a challenge here.

My vote would be a NF 3.5-15x50 with whichever reticle you prefer. I've never been out and wished I could dial down but have been on a few where I was glad to have 17X and wished I had more. The only thing keeping the NF from being the ultimate scope for our application is the pain in the balls illumination adjustment. I wish they'd do something to allow it to be adjusted as needed, quickly and without a small screwdriver.

 

[nleaders]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

USO... all the way. The 1.8-10 would do perfectly here... especially since you got the money.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Yeah I forgot he said $2,000 budget. I'd probably go with a USO 1.8 to 10 also. Built like a tank and you wont be carrying it for long distances or shooting off hand with it so weight is no issue. Of course I wouldn't mind having any of the scopes mentioned like the Nightforce 2.5-10x32.

 

[stan462]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

I would get the USO 1.8X10 The offer LE discount and have great customer service.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

The longest police sniper shot was 514 yards, the shortest about 5 yards.

There are several considerations here.
What is his qualification course of fire? I watched a guy struggle to qualify, he was rocking a PSG-1, which comes with a 6x optic. The rifle shot well, but when it came to precision, the 6x mag left a bit to be desired (he did qualify though).

Another thought:
Does the OP have an airport in his AO? Shots can be long here, higher mag will be needed.

Higher mag is also useful for positive target ID and identifying other important factors during your observation duties (for example: hinges on left or right, what can be seen through window)

FFP vs SFP is a personal issue.
True, the reticle gets small, on low power, I use it like a regular duplex reticle. It took me a range trip or two to wrap my head around it. I just prefer the FFP.

My choice was the IOR 3-18x42.

I think the OP should, at a minimum have 9 or 10x available, preferably more. Give consideration to the Bushnell HDMR scope or the new IOR 3-18 with illuminated reticle.

 

[ssatt68]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

+1 fo the USO 1.8-10

 

[jbgleason]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

FWIW, I shot Paul Howe's Urban Sniper course last year with my OBR and a NF 2.5-10X. The course is based around realistic LE distances (alot of 100 yds and in with movers and snaps). I found the optic to be ideal and FOV was sufficient. We did shoot out to 600 and the 10X made my job a bit more difficult than the guys rocking the ginormous 20X+ scopes but I was way, way ahead of them the rest of the time with respect to getting on target. I have also found the NF quality to be rock solid. That being said, I was a team medic and went to the school to satisfy my curiousity as to what the heck you guys do when out there by yourselves. So I am NOT an optics expert.

 

[Graham]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the furthest shot made by a police sniper is in the 2-250 yard range? I guy in VA if memory serves? </div></div>I thought it was 450+, in PA?

The NF 3.5-15x50 SFP would be ideal, but for what you decribed it's more than you need because you probably won't be dialing too much. The only problem with a scope that large is that it can over-power the rifle in terms of weight and balance. My AR has a 3-9x42 FFP Super Sniper, Mil Dot, which works just fine to 600 meters. The question is whether you need the high-end for observation beyond 200 meters.

 

[steve123]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Another vote for the NF 2.5-10 but with the LV reticle which is suited for 308 out to 600Y. I just don't like FFP scopes dialed down all the way even though I much prefer them otherwise.

With a little bit of practice you can use the LV reticles hash marks at 2.5x as a reference for closer shots. I do that for head shots in our local carbine matches.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

I'm at home and the sniper use report is at work, so I don't have the numbers in front of me - but discouting the washington monument unconfirmed shooting, IIRC the max is in the 200-300 yard range. The average is in the 50 yard range.

We do have a: and airport (FBI's problem

) and b: a college campus with incredibly long, manicured lawns that you can see out to 600 easily. We're a multi-jurisdictional team (city, county, and campus along with several FD medics and an ER doc). I've never set up more than 150 yards away, but there's plenty of possibilities for that to happen.

Our primary qual course is a thunder run from 100 down to 25. We also shoot a "long range" qual course from 150 out to 600. Steel targets are every 50 yards (they start smaller and get larger - the last few are steel IPSC size). Kind of a neat little course if I do say so myself. I've shot the LR qual course with a 16" ar with an ACOG on it - it's doable, but not ideal.

BTW - this isn't for me. We're setting up another guy on our team with an OBR as a test, and I'm more concerned about the optics than anything else. He's probably our best shooter, is smart, is a FA instructor, etc. I just want him to have the right tool for the job. I haven't been totally jazzed with the leupold FFP 3.5-10 mil dot M5. The Weaver I bought personally is good, but it's so new I don't know if I want to have the department buy it, since replacing it if something goes wrong in the future is not anywhere as easy as me selling a personal scope and replacing it. Anyone who works in LE knows how hard it is to get anything done equipment-wise.

Right now, I'm most seriously looking at the NF line. Although when we're shooting at longer range, the 3.5-15 F1 looks like the one to beat, for most of what we do, the 2.5-10 LV looks like it might be just the ticket. But I hadn't considered the USO 1.8-10.

The rifle is ordered and on the way, so I need to figure this out. I appreciate all the input so far (keep it coming of you feel you have something to add). All good info so far. I'm asking to make sure I'm not missing something obvious or doing something stupid.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

The NF would be a solid choice.

IOR also makes several 2-12x SFP scopes that might be a good answer.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Not specifically directed at the OP, but for general consideration related to the topic:

FFP vs SFP
Reticle Calibration – you can use any reticle at any power as long you understand how it works and you can do some math. I.E. your SFP scope is setup to range at 20x, but you are on 10x and you want to use the reticle to range or hold. Formula: Desired Power / Factory Set Power = Mod Factor, Reticle Reading / Mod Factor = Actual Reticle Reading. So 10x / 20x = 0.5, take whatever reticle read you have and divide it by 0.5 . If you do these math conversions ahead of time, and carry that data with you (in your head or on paper), you can refer to it and quickly employ a SFP scope on numerous magnification settings. I would agree a FFP can be quicker/easier to use, but I don’t like the argument that a SFP is only functional for ranging and holds on a single factory set magnification point. IMHO, too many shooters do not truly know or exploit the full capabilities of what they have access to.

Reticle Recognition – per comments above, the reticle on some FFPs will basically become a crosshair at lower power settings, you will lose the ability to resolve the finer details of the reticle. This means you will lack the detail you need to use it for ranging or holds at the lower power settings. If you are going to look at a FFP then IMHO this is something that you really need to look at and evaluate.

RANGE & WEAPON SYSTEM CHOICE
I always hear about “close range sniper engagements”, sorry but IMHO if you are engaging a target at 15-30 yards then it is not a “sniper engagement” and you don’t need a bolt gun with a magnified optic. At those close ranges a good marksman should be able to make T Zone shots with a quality patrol rifle (& ammo) using Iron Sights or a Red Dot, and you would probably be better off doing so. I can appreciate deploying LE personnel do not have a "caddy" to follow them around carrying a broad selection of weapon systems to choose from. That being the case, hopefully LE personnel will look at the specific details of a given situation and have the option when they deploy to take the weapon system that works best for that given situation. I see more rifles being put in service that are setup to be a “jack of all trades”, BUIS, Red Dot on a Offset Mount, and a Mid-High Power Scope. In many instances this will give the shooter a lot of options to use in whatever situation they may face. But likewise, the old saying “jack of all, master of none” can come into play. Going back to a “Golf Analogy”, you wouldn’t try to make a tee shot with a putter, likewise you shouldn’t try to make a 15 yard shot with a scoped rifle on 20x.

SHOOTER / SPOTTER & SITUATIONAL AWARENESS
Biggest transition I have had to make going from Military to LE Sniping is Military using a shooter on rifle and a spotter on scope, to LE using both personnel on rifle and both acting as shooters. Putting both on a rifle as shooters can change the dynamics where they both are focusing closely on a precise shot, versus one being focused closely in on the shot, and the other being focused out on the overall big picture. I can understand the desire by LE to get 2 simultaneous shots on the target to increase the probability of success, but I think the change / loss of the role of a dedicated observer can be detrimental. With LE you can also see more of a tendency to deploy a single individual to fulfill the sniper role due to staffing issues. This also obviously hinders the ability to maintain a broader overall situational awareness. This can also tie back into gear and rifle setup where the scope on the rifle becomes the only means of target observation and the use of additional optics (spotting scope or binoculars) can be lost. I always try to stress the importance of having a dedicated spotter, and if need be the possibility of using non sniper personnel to cover this role. With a little bit of training and practice, a patrol officer acting as a dedicated observer is better IMHO than having no one acting as an observer.

Sorry for the long winded dissertation, but I think those can all be important issues when it comes to operations and equipment selection. I don’t actually play golf, but I can’t get away from the analogies, a golfer’s shot is dictated by; the situation he is in, the equipment he has access to, and his capabilities. Likewise for success, a shooter has to take into account: situation, equipment, and capability, and come up with the correct combination for success. A golfer who shows up at a PAR 5 PGA course, with one golf club, and no practice, might as well not show up! A LE Sniper who shows up at a 25 yard engagement, with a fixed 10 power scope, he has only shot at 100 yards, is a recipe for disaster!

Scope selection obviously should be a well thought out process, which per above has a lot of variables / factors that come into play. IMHO, there is not always one simple, short, quick answer, but you have to take everything into account.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[captrichardson]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cds7221</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For what it's worth, I would recommend the Nightforce 2.5-10x32 zs, mildot. I have one on my lmt 308 and I like it a lot. I find it works great for my 100 to 700 yd work. C291 should be the item #.</div></div>

I think the first answer is the best so far imho. I agree with the OP that holdovers aren't really a huge concern in an LEO scope. Seeing the reticle and a large FOV are. SFP 2.5-10 NXS gets my vote too.

J</div></div>

My vote too. I'm no sniper, but most of my hunting shots are 100 yards and below (40-85 yards), and the NF 2.5-10 mil/mil ZS is on my deer/hog rifle. Absolutely perfect with regards to FOV and flexibility, in my opinion. The reticule is nice too, as it's a hollow mil-dot and allows for less reticle "clutter". </div></div>


More consideration, based on the comments above,

TARGET RECOGNITION vs POSITIVE TARGET IDENTIFICATION
Hunter looks across the field and recognizes an outline/profile in the distance which appears to be a deer. Standing on 4 legs, discernable rack, appropriate size. The hunter lines the crosshairs up based on appropriate landmarks sends the round. Classic example of Target Recognition, for the purposes of hunting, the hunter only needs to discern the size and shape of a deer.

A LE Sniper looks into a room, and recognizes the presence of 6 human beings, classic example of Target Recognition. Which one is the bad guy, which one will they target? This requires more work in order to get to Positive Target Identification. Gross Target Identification, which one is holding an obvious weapon and using it in a menacing manor? Fine Target Identification, who is wearing a blue shirt and has blonde hair? Before a LE Sniper can send a round, they should have 100% Positive Target Identification.

At closer ranges Positive Target Identification can be done relatively easily with low power optics, but as the range increases, so does the difficulty factor and the need for higher power optics.

Put four 1” circle targets at 100 yards, and tell the Sniper to shoot them. They should have no problem seeing and hitting a 1” target even with lower powered optics, classic Target Recognition. Now take the same 1” target, and make them a different color, put a number inside of them, or make them different patterns. Now see how well the Sniper will do when you tell them to shoot a specific circle based on a specific identifier. Now they must not only accomplish Target Recognition, seeing the circles, but also Positive Target Identification, which circle of the four has the required identifier? Do this drill, and you will most likely see everyone max out their magnification power. This is when you will also see the individuals with lower magnification scopes struggling / failing, even though they were just able to easily recognize and shoot the circles.

Different ball game when you have to go from Target Recognition to Positive Target Identification.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[lonely_wolf]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Thanks for posting, Richardson. Very interesting.

 

[BELLYCRAWL]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

You have many good choices. I would like to see the IOR 2-12 x 36 or 3-18 x 42 with SFP MP8 on the list, but I believe they be a little heavier than the NF or USO.

BC

 

[FLIGHT762]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

I'll put my .02¢ in. I put a long time in as a L/E SWAT operator and many years deployed as a Counter Sniper. I love my personal high magnification FFP scopes, being able to range, engage multiple targets at various ranges and hold over at any magnification. It's a lot of fun shooting the steel target games, but honestly, L/E requirements are much different.

My longest deployment was 120 yards. All other deployments were less. The reality for an urban L/E operator is going to be at short ranges and not engaging multiple targets at various ranges using the reticle for holdovers. The last scope I used was a Nightforce 3.5-15X50 SFP / MLR. I liked the way the reticle remained the same size at all powers. I can see the reticle clearly at 3.5X. When turning down the power in a FFP scope, the reticle gets really small.

15X is enough to get good target identification and positive target recognition at the shorter L/E distances. Illumination is needed for a L/E scope as many deployments are at night. The Nightforce scope leaves a little to be desired because of not having an easily adjusted rheostat, I had to turn down the illumination from the factory setting for use in low light and works all right, but adjusting it requires the removal of a turret cap and a small screwdriver.

The L/E urban requirements are very different than Military requirements.

We would train a few times a year at ranges out to 600 yards just to get our rifles doped out, noting the adjustments in our dope books and to let the operators get the confidence of taking longer shots, but a lot of the training is making precise cold bore shots and positive target identification at 100 yards.

My point is a SFP scope will work well and may be better suited for L/E work. An optic with Illumination, in the 3.5-15 power range. I do prefer the Nightforce MLR or the Leupold TMR styles of reticle over the traditional MIL Dot style.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Think about your AO and the call outs you have been on in the past.

It really doesn't matter what MY AO is like. I don't work in yours.

I can tell you that while most of mine have been under 100, a couple have been over. A couple training scenarios have required over 200. It is possible, and our capabilities have demonstrated that a 200+ shot can be safety taken.

I prefer an illuminated FFP reticle in a working scope. However if illumination is not a possibility, then the scope needs to be SFP. I have tried to use a non-illuminated FFP in urban environments before. I was happy when my illuminated SN-3 showed up.

Be VERY careful taking magnification advice from non-snipers. Target ranges and hunting don't carry the same legal implications that a live callout does. I prefer 3x on the bottom end because it allows me to cover most of the front of a house at relatively close ranges, but still make a snap shot on a head sized target if needed. I like as much top end as I can get without sacrificing the bottom end. Target identification is key. Is that a cell phone, toy or a real gun? It does make a difference and it has made a difference for me before. When I can dial up the magnification, I want it to be there.

Reticles are going to come down to your preference. You need a scale on them because when things start moving you don't want to guess at a lead or hold.

There are so many optics out there, that it's difficult for me to tell you to go get a specific one. There are tons that will work. Just make sure you run a tracking drill and let them bounce around in the back of the car for awhile to make sure they retain zero in harsh conditions.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

I appreciate all the input. This is giving me a headache though. There are so many options available out there right now that, frankly, it is a little confusing. I long for the days when the only option was a Leupold Mk4. Life was simpler.

I do like having all the options, but it's hard to know what the right answer is. The guy who is getting the gun will have the final pick. He's going to be turning the wrench - let him pick which wrench. This will all fall under "advice".

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Any reason you couldn't have a small reflex mounted on top or at 45*?

 

[mwroseberry]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssatt68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 fo the USO 1.8-10 </div></div>

+1

 

[Luke]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Coming from personal shooting experience and military precision rifle experience, I would personally choose a USO 1.8-10x.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

no love for the two mildot reticule reticule

 

[adam1122]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Might consider a S&B short dot...either of the models would work for you and the glass on those scopes is just ridiculous....you get what you pay for.

I used one on my duty rig for a while and it worked perfectly....then I decided to shoot at longer ranges and traded up for a USO 1.8x-10x so I could shoot to 1000.

Don't get cheap on optics...especially when your shots are mostly going to be inside 150 yards. Clarity and a reticle that doesn't obscure the target will be worth it's wait in gold if you have to take a shot. See if your dept. will either split the cost with you or pay for it all together. If they give you 2k you can get alot of scope if you throw in another 500 or your own cash.

 

[Dantrom]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Im not in law enforcment, but any reason the HDMR shouldnt be considered?

gets you down to 3X and if needed based on the comment above about properly IDing an individual you can go all the way up to 21x.

It's also within OP's budget by a long shot!

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dantrom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not in law enforcment, but any reason the HDMR shouldnt be considered?</div></div>

No illumination rules out an FFP for LE work. The reticle is too fine to use at low magnification in low light.

This is something I discussed with Bushnell. However some compromises have to be made in order to achieve a certain price. If you add illumination and zero stops, now you are competing with a higher price point.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

honestly for a LEO scope for shots 300 and under (90 percent of the time) i would expect ruggedness and ease of use to be top priorities. the whole FFP thing i don't see being a issue either way. i don't see any reason why a PST10 or similar with illuminated reticle wouldn't work just fine. a gun most likely to see work under 500 yards does not need a 5-25 or simliar scope. mabye a NF F1 at max.

Just my .02

 

[adam1122]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

The HDMR scope may look really badass but for an LEP weapon the first time you bang your rifle against something hard you will either loose zero or break the glass. You need something tough that will withstand abuse.

Case in point....I shoot my DMR rifle with a custom US Optics scopes that is built like a tank. Search Youtube and their are videos of guys throwing them off 3 story buildings and then putting them back on the rifle. Scope may be dirty of have a small scratch but not loss of zero whatsoever and the glass doesn't break.

If your budget is really low just go with an Aimpoint Pro or a T-1 since your shots will be inside 150y for the most part. Otherwise, 1x-4x adjustable FFP scopes with illumintaed reticles are the way to go....S&B (top of the line short dot but will break your budget) or a Leupold should work nicely.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The HDMR scope may look really badass but for an LEP weapon the first time you bang your rifle against something hard you will either loose zero or break the glass.</div></div>

Really....you know this firsthand?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If your budget is really low just go with an Aimpoint Pro or a T-1 since your shots will be inside 150y for the most part.</div></div>

We are not talking about a DM role. We are talking about an LE Sniper. A 1x optic is not going to cut it. If it's a situation that is that close, then you don't worry with the precision rifle. You just grab the patrol rifle and roll with the entry gear.

 

[adam1122]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

Yeah, I speak from experience as leo...depending on the length of the shot you could carry multiple scopes....Aimpoint for 50 yards and in and a 1-4x with illum. reticle for anything out to about 300-400 depending on how good your eyes are.

And yeah, I saw an HDMR scope break when a team member slammed it into a wall making entry into a building. Guess he should have dropped the rifle instead of slinging it. It is a kick ass scope and has its place but I wouldn't use anything that doesnt have protected glass that could break in case you drop your rig. Just my two cents....I know everyone who uses a C-More may disagree but I was taught to make sure your gear cant break even if you f*ck up and hit something with you rig.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Your ideas for a SWAT team sniper scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And yeah, I saw an HDMR scope break when a team member slammed it into a wall making entry into a building.</div></div>

Interesting...since I have bounced the predecessor to this scope off the pavement before attached to a rather heavy rifle. Not calling bullshit, but this is totally contrary to my personal experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGBYzbnSYGE&hd=1

However if you have a team member using an HDMR on a sniper rifle I hope he keeps a PVS-22 attached to it. Because a precision shot on 3x at night is going to be a tough one without an illuminated reticle.

If you don't mind PM'ing me, I would like to talk to the sniper who had the failure.