Your perfect action - and why

[EventHorizon]

I was recently asked about how I like my Big Horn Arms action for my 6.5Creedmoor. Truth is I love it - it's fast, smooth, accurate but beyond that I didn't know what else to say because it's my first custom action but I know there's a lot more to it than that.

What are the features that make up a great custom action and why?

I'm not talking about quality of craftsmanship - but specifics of design that make you think 'I want that action' over any other.

 

[pdd614]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

I'll take a stab at it.
Left bolt/right port.
60 degree three lug bolt. .750 diameter and fluted.
0 or 20 moa integrated rail.
Two or three integrated recoil lugs.
I guess a remington trigger would do, but an AI trigger would be better.
Safety on the shroud would be nice.
AW mag cut to run both aics and aw mags.
It would need to run properly at all times no matter how bad I treated it. What more could I ask for?

 

[Adam B]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

60 degree three lug Remington footprint action

 

[jpspeeddemon]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

AI action

3 lug 60 degree bolt throw
3 position safety, firing pin blocked when on safe
stratigically positioned flutes to funnel dirt/debris and aid in function during icy conditions
positive reliable feeding of round into chamber
very positive extraction everytime with extractor that secured around case head better than other actions to prevent case head seperation (if i remember correctly)
No need for truing
Crisp 2-stage trigger

 

[bward]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

An AIAW that has a smaller firing pin so that you can run small rifle primer cartridges, and an integrated 20 moa rail. I like the AI trigger but would rather have a TRG trigger in it.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

I agree with the 60 degree bolt throw. For me it would make follow up much smoother.

PDD614 - why that many recoil lugs?

Regarding integrated rail - is this necessary or just a 'feature'? Can the same stiffness be achieved with simply a closed top action and only side port?

Its been a while since I fired an AI - what's the feel of the action like? I'd say the smoothness of my Big Horn (ha!) is a major reason for why I like it. What about TRG actions?

 

[Midwestside]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Turtleman's trumps all:

 

[pdd614]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

I have a tc icon for a hunting rifle, and can't find fault with there integral three lug design. In fact, I like several things about that action, especially for a beater rifle.

 

[Mohawk3a]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">60 degree three lug Remington footprint action

</div></div>
With integral rail and recoil lug

 

[hewlett260]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

If an AIAW and a Mauser 98 made a baby: Basically an AW but with controlled round feeding and the claw extractor and have it offered in short action ultra mag cartridges, that would be about it for me.

 

[glock24]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veteran Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">60 degree three lug Remington footprint action

</div></div>
With integral rail and recoil lug </div></div>


THIS

 

[jc98ss]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Midwestside</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turtleman's trumps all:

</div></div>

WIN......thread closed

 

[Whit]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdd614</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll take a stab at it.
Left bolt/right port.
60 degree lift three lug bolt. .750 diameter and fluted.
0 or 20 moa integrated rail.
Two or three integrated recoil lugs.
I guess a remington trigger would do, but an AI trigger would be better.
Safety on the shroud would be nice.
AW mag cut to run both aics and aw mags.
It would need to run properly at all times no matter how bad I treated it. What more could I ask for? </div></div>


He nailed it, but for the MOA Rail would depend on what Cartridge it is for. For .308 (and WSM) and less would be 20 MOA, Magnums (300 WinMag ect.) would be 20-35 MOA and large bore ( 338 Lapua, 375 CheyTac, 408 CheyTac, 50 BMG, ect) be 45 MOA . Just so you can stretch out the cartridge to its potential with differant scopes.

If the AI action is like the Sako it would be perfect. I like the smoothness of the Sako but I like the beefiness of the AI action.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: whit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdd614</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll take a stab at it.
Left bolt/right port.
60 degree lift three lug bolt. .750 diameter and fluted.
0 or 20 moa integrated rail.
Two or three integrated recoil lugs.
I guess a remington trigger would do, but an AI trigger would be better.
Safety on the shroud would be nice.
AW mag cut to run both aics and aw mags.
It would need to run properly at all times no matter how bad I treated it. What more could I ask for? </div></div>


He nailed it, but for the MOA Rail would depend on what Cartridge it is for. For .308 (and WSM) and less would be 20 MOA, Magnums (300 WinMag ect.) would be 20-35 MOA and large bore ( 338 Lapua, 375 CheyTac, 408 CheyTac, 50 BMG, ect) be 45 MOA . Just so you can stretch out the cartridge to its potential with differant scopes.

If the AI action is like the Sako it would be perfect. I like the smoothness of the Sako but I like the beefiness of the AI action. </div></div>

Wouldn't the absence of an integral rail then be a benefit in that you can change the rail to suit the cartridge if you wanted? What does an integral rail add that's worth losing the ability to change the rail?

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Remington 700 action, properly trued. Bolt handle retimed and welded on ala Dans40x, lightened FP assembly ala Dans40x, REGULAR DIAMETER BOLT.

Always works, smooth as hell, easy parts replacement, easily field serviced.

 

[Midwestside]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Wouldn't the absence of an integral rail then be a benefit in that you can change the rail to suit the cartridge if you wanted? What does an integral rail add that's worth losing the ability to change the rail? </div></div>

...It's one less variable to worry about when trying to maintain accuracy.
Set your zero, then take a delrin punch and give your rail a swift tap on the side and see what happens?

 

[71firebird400]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Mauser 98. Because as much as the boutique custom action makers try, they cannot even come close to producing the features that made the Mauser great. What we have today are a bunch of Remington 700 clones with minor modifications where convenient.

 

[Hunt4life]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

One that shoots around 1/4 to 1/2 MOA when paired with a good barrel. Thats it, my custom built Rem700 is a tack driver that I am amazed at everytime I go to the range.

I am buiding a Savage in 7mm Rem Mag and based on my past experience with Savage, expect similar results from it. Heck, I was going to go the gusto on it but bought a new house and am rolling back to a budget build but have not changed my expectations from it as I do not feel I need to. Was going to be a 300 ultra, but the action came with nice 7mm Rem Mag bottom metal and have decided to build it as such. The 7mm bullet selection is amazing.

 

[c1steve]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

I think the Bighorn with floating bolt head is great. However, the tactical action cannot be top fed, so the action cannot be used with anything but a DBM. I think this is a drawback.

If the action had an integrated top rail, that would stiffen the action and the ejection port could be larger. This would allow a hinged floorplate to be used, rather than the DBM.

-Steve

 

[Conqueror]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

3-lug, 60 degree bolt lift (like TRG or AI)
Smooth action (Tikka gets this right, slickest I've used)
Big round bolt knob from the factory (like TRG or Savage)
Interchangeable KEYED top rails (Sako is the only one I know of)
Uses AI mags
Good 2-stage trigger (TRG trigger is great, but a lower adjustment range would be a nice addition)
Small ejection port
Integral recoil lug/s
Available in LH or RH
Strong extractor and ejector (tired of spent brass flopping halfway out)
Available in SA/LA/Magnum
Side bolt release
Safety allows bolt manipulation

That's all I can think of right now.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

If an AI AE had an integrated 20 MOA rail on the top and was cut for A/W mags, that would be pretty darn close.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c1steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the Bighorn with floating bolt head is great. <span style="color: #FF0000">However, the tactical action cannot be top fed, so the action cannot be used with anything but a DBM. I think this is a drawback.</span>

If the action had an integrated top rail, that would stiffen the action and the ejection port could be larger. This would allow a hinged floorplate to be used, rather than the DBM.

-Steve </div></div>

Now there's a comment I'm surprised to read, someone pushing for a floor plate usage capability on a tactical platform. My TacOps is floor plate and it's usually the one thing people say 'wish it could be DBM fed with an integral rail on top'.

Are you suggesting for a tactical action there should not be dependence on just one way of feeding the rifle (in case there's a mag failure for example)?

The ejection port size is interesting too. Some like a smaller one and others larger. I would have thought it's a trade off between keeping muck out and being able to fish out rounds/cases when something goes wrong.

I would have thought for a general purpose action a large port would be better and for a 'must have extreme stiffness/accuracy' a small one wins the day...

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

TRG action,

3 lugs
butter smooth
sako extractor
long bolt handle
great adjustable trigger
rock solid rail set up
super rigid

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now there's a comment I'm surprised to read, someone pushing for a floor plate usage capability on a tactical platform. My TacOps is floor plate and it's usually the one thing people say 'wish it could be DBM fed with an integral rail on top'.

Are you suggesting for a tactical action there should not be dependence on just one way of feeding the rifle (in case there's a mag failure for example)?

</div></div>

I believe it should be able to be fed <span style="font-style: italic">both</span> ways. one should have the ability to top off mags or swap in a single round of another variety of ammunition if necessary, without dropping the magazine.

Seems odd somebody would advocate A/W cut as a <span style="font-style: italic">drawback</span> these days.

 

[greentimber]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Sako A7 that takes AW mags.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

As I read this thread, it screams Badger M2008 to me.

Other than an integral rail, it pretty much embodies most all of the features mentioned.

I know I love mine, just wish it had a Win70/AI type 3-position safety on the bolt.

 

[Adam B]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

the only drawback the badger has it that it weighs a pound more than most of the other actions out there, other than that it is one sweet action.

 

[jbell]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TRG action,

3 lugs
butter smooth
sako extractor
long bolt handle
great adjustable trigger
rock solid rail set up
super rigid
</div></div>

^^^This^^^ and to add:
-one of the best magazines out there, sure people bitch that its pricy but I think you get what you pay for having ran an AW and a TRG I like the TRG mags better (I thinnk they feed smoother)
-less effort required to lift the bolt when cocking than most 3 lug actions
-no need to true when rebarreling

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Surgeon
4140 steel
intregated bolt lug
intregated picatanny rail
long bolt handle
close fitting bolt.

 

[LRJammer]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the only drawback the badger has it that it weighs a pound more than most of the other actions out there, other than that it is one sweet action. </div></div>

Curious how one would look toward the Badger, and overlook the action that it emulates (AI).

 

[Adam B]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRJammer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the only drawback the badger has it that it weighs a pound more than most of the other actions out there, other than that it is one sweet action. </div></div>

Curious how one would look toward the Badger, and overlook the action that it emulates (AI).</div></div>

Mainly because you can build a complete badger rifle for the same price you can buy an AE for

 

[LRJammer]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRJammer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the only drawback the badger has it that it weighs a pound more than most of the other actions out there, other than that it is one sweet action. </div></div>

Curious how one would look toward the Badger, and overlook the action that it emulates (AI).</div></div>

Mainly because you can build a complete badger rifle for the same price you can buy an AE for </div></div>

OK, but then you still are left with a rifle that is inferior to an AI.

 

[Adam B]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

I have owned them both and the AW isnt any better than the badger, it just carries a higher price tag.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Surgeon 591.

 

[pdd614]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

90 degree bolts and lefty's don't mix well with S&B. Surgeon is out as far as a perfect action, for me anyways.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Works just great for us righty's.

 

[Hondo64d]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Remington 700 short action footprint, 3 lug with floating bolt head, integral lug, integral 20 MOA rail, but thinner like weaver mounts, rather than thick like picatiny, 3" mag box. Yeah, that should do it.

Have never been a fan of barrel nut arrangement, but the ease of switching barrels is appealing if they just weren't so dang ugly...

John

 

[jerseymike]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

BAT tactical action

 

[KYS]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRJammer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRJammer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the only drawback the badger has it that it weighs a pound more than most of the other actions out there, other than that it is one sweet action. </div></div>

Curious how one would look toward the Badger, and overlook the action that it emulates (AI).</div></div>

Mainly because you can build a complete badger rifle for the same price you can buy an AE for </div></div>

OK, but then you still are left with a rifle that is inferior to an AI. </div></div>

A custom built Badger M2008 rig is NOT inferior to an AI. Thats absurd!

I think the integrated recoil lug is a better feature to have then an integrated scope rail. What if you end up needing to change out for more cant or less?

 

[223ai]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A custom built Badger M2008 rig is NOT inferior to an AI. Thats absurd!
</div></div>

What's absurd is thinking that an M2008, which uses a 700 trigger, is same/same as an AI, which uses bulletproof (and simple) trigger.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remington 700 action, properly trued. Bolt handle retimed and welded on ala Dans40x, lightened FP assembly ala Dans40x, REGULAR DIAMETER BOLT.

Always works, smooth as hell, easy parts replacement, easily field serviced. </div></div>

+1

and on the third day GOD invented the remington bolt action rifle to fight off the dinosaurs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZaCiP2_2RM ...amen

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A custom built Badger M2008 rig is NOT inferior to an AI. Thats absurd!
</div></div>

What's absurd is thinking that an M2008, which uses a 700 trigger, is same/same as an AI, which uses bulletproof (and simple) trigger. </div></div>

Hey Josh---you gave up on the Rem 700 2-stages too early. Should have given the CG Xtreme Tactical version a try. Likewise bulletproof and truly a perfect 2 stage. Makes an AI feel like a Glock

Plus, the safety actually disengages the sear rendering moot the 700 safety issue.

 

[hyena74]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TRG action,

3 lugs
butter smooth
sako extractor
long bolt handle
great adjustable trigger
rock solid rail set up
super rigid
</div></div>

^^^This^^^ and to add:
-one of the best magazines out there, sure people bitch that its pricy but I think you get what you pay for having ran an AW and a TRG I like the TRG mags better (I thinnk they feed smoother)
-less effort required to lift the bolt when cocking than most 3 lug actions
-no need to true when rebarreling </div></div>
u used to think like this as a trg was my first high end rifle. after i got some other things, i found they were not as great as i thought....heres why...

weak ejection

not a huge fan of their extractor

weak and failure prone bolt stop

bolt stop on the wrong side

screwed on bolt hande that has a weak attachment point

overly complex and very expensive trigger unit

trigger stick if adjusted to light

trigger group held on by a single bolt

bolt lift tension will cause safety to not disengage

parkerized finish is not ideal for a tactical rifle

special tool needed to remove firing pin

firing pin very prone to break when dry firing

bolt not fluted

zero moa rail or crappy sako direct mount are the options

...................

i vote for an aiaw action but dont have seven or eight grand to spend for one.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A custom built Badger M2008 rig is NOT inferior to an AI. Thats absurd!
</div></div>

What's absurd is thinking that an M2008, which uses a 700 trigger, is same/same as an AI, which uses bulletproof (and simple) trigger. </div></div>

Hey Josh---you gave up on the Rem 700 2-stages too early. Should have given the CG Xtreme Tactical version a try. Likewise bulletproof and truly a perfect 2 stage. Makes an AI feel like a Glock

Plus, the safety actually disengages the sear rendering moot the 700 safety issue. </div></div>

Would add the Huber Trigger to that mix....

 

[Chiller]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TRG action,

3 lugs
butter smooth
sako extractor
long bolt handle
great adjustable trigger
rock solid rail set up
super rigid
</div></div>

^^^This^^^ and to add:
-one of the best magazines out there, sure people bitch that its pricy but I think you get what you pay for having ran an AW and a TRG I like the TRG mags better (I thinnk they feed smoother)
-less effort required to lift the bolt when cocking than most 3 lug actions
-no need to true when rebarreling </div></div>
u used to think like this as a trg was my first high end rifle. after i got some other things, i found they were not as great as i thought....heres why...

weak ejection

not a huge fan of their extractor

weak and failure prone bolt stop

bolt stop on the wrong side

screwed on bolt hande that has a weak attachment point

overly complex and very expensive trigger unit

trigger stick if adjusted to light

trigger group held on by a single bolt

bolt lift tension will cause safety to not disengage

parkerized finish is not ideal for a tactical rifle

special tool needed to remove firing pin

firing pin very prone to break when dry firing

bolt not fluted

zero moa rail or crappy sako direct mount are the options

...................

i vote for an aiaw action but dont have seven or eight grand to spend for one. </div></div>

Broken firing pins?

 

[hyena74]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TRG action,

3 lugs
butter smooth
sako extractor
long bolt handle
great adjustable trigger
rock solid rail set up
super rigid
</div></div>

^^^This^^^ and to add:
-one of the best magazines out there, sure people bitch that its pricy but I think you get what you pay for having ran an AW and a TRG I like the TRG mags better (I thinnk they feed smoother)
-less effort required to lift the bolt when cocking than most 3 lug actions
-no need to true when rebarreling </div></div>
u used to think like this as a trg was my first high end rifle. after i got some other things, i found they were not as great as i thought....heres why...

weak ejection

not a huge fan of their extractor

weak and failure prone bolt stop

bolt stop on the wrong side

screwed on bolt hande that has a weak attachment point

overly complex and very expensive trigger unit

trigger stick if adjusted to light

trigger group held on by a single bolt

bolt lift tension will cause safety to not disengage

parkerized finish is not ideal for a tactical rifle

special tool needed to remove firing pin

firing pin very prone to break when dry firing

bolt not fluted

zero moa rail or crappy sako direct mount are the options

...................

i vote for an aiaw action but dont have seven or eight grand to spend for one. </div></div>

Broken firing pins? </div></div>

yeah. ive read before the firing pin is very hard and can break with repeated dry firing. i neved had it happen, but i always used snap cap to dry fire with.

 

[Skyking]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

The Bighorn!! Because, 4 of the 5 guns I shoot have the Bighorn. Also Aj is coming out with version 3 of the Bighorn. They will have a integral recoil lug, solid bolt handle.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Bighorn!! Because, 4 of the 5 guns I shoot have the Bighorn. Also Aj is coming out with version 3 of the Bighorn. They will have a integral recoil lug, solid bolt handle.

</div></div>

3 rights and 1 not so right?

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

Version 3? I like the sound of that. I love the shit out of my Tactical SA.

You have any details on those sporters? Mighty fine looking. A light-ish hunting Bighorn is definitely in my future.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Your perfect action - and why

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
yeah. ive read before the firing pin is very hard and can break with repeated dry firing. i neved had it happen, but i always used snap cap to dry fire with. </div></div>

Would love to see what you are reading? A quick google search did not produce much?