PRS Talk Your Squad Matters - Randomize it !

[Lowlight]

So, everyone knows I have an opinion on the matches currently taking place around the country. While I am not personally supporting the NRL or PRS (series) that does not mean we are not paying attention.

In fact, I have become the defacto complaint department, if not the "answer guy" when things don't look right.

A SH Member noticed a super squad this past weekend and decided to do a little bit of sleuthing using the published scores.

This is not accusing anyone of cheating, nothing so obvious as that. But demonstrating how a "squad" can dominate a match helping produce the winner.

Bit of history,

Going back to ASC, we used to operate in squads, that came to act as defacto teams. The squad did everything from picking the leadoff shooter to doping the wind as a group, as well as ranging targets by committee. It's common and effective, the entire squad working towards a like-minded end. In fact the last ASC I shot, along with several others was in 2007. This was a result of a big cheating scandal that ended up being resolved with a super squad being formed and the winner of the year in question getting a repeat win.

Other times I have moved into squads where its members would give me an advantage thanks to similar calibers, rifles, etc, It was not uncommon for squads back in the day to say, "Hey Shooter 3 is doing better than the rest of us, let's make sure his winning ways continue". And there are some simple, yet easy ways to help, let him shoot after other members of the squad figure out the best way to attack the problem. It's as easy as shooting last each time, or close to it. You don't even have to be that up front, just not first if the wind is involved.

An individual sport, where an individual shooter can excel by being part of a team. Working together has its benefits, it's like an open book test with the teacher out of the room. Just having a shooter come off the line and saying, "Move to the left side of Obstacle A, hold .4 at the 800, aim high on the 3rd target everyone is hitting low". It matters.

It's not cheating, it's typical everyday behavior, as who would not want to see someone succeed. The problem is, we are playing an individual game. If this is going to continue to be a "Team" sport with an Individual narrative, it will not work. The no coaching rule only extends to the shooter when the clock is running. There is nothing about walking off the line or on to the line where a person can help you. It's the same as coaching just not under time.

So, here is what I am saying, Randomize the Squads, or make blind stages.

Regardless of the situation, unless it is a physical type assistance, this needs to be random. Sure if a father & son want to shoot together you do that, but Bob and his friend John, sorry meet new people, get on the other squad.

if you are sharing equipment, one goes without, or borrow it from someone else. Every day we read about the great guys who loan new shooters stuff, so, problem solved, you shoot in Squad A, John in Squad B.

I could give you an example after example of how this plays out to help certain individuals shine vs the field. Random Squadding !

Blind stages are harder, especially at the square range type facilities. One effort could be made so shooters in the squad cannot communicate after the stage is completed. You force the finishing shooter to move to a place where the others cannot talk to him or her. If you can give a suggestion, especially when it comes to guys with experience, it will make a difference, clearly.

That is all, small "r' rant for today as the season is just beginning and already we can see them adapting to beat the field.

 

[Rob01]

2007 was my last ASC too LOL

 

[lash]

I know that this is not on the level you are polling, but at our local matches, we start setting squads the morning of the match. First, by order of registration, then if we notice too many new shooters on a squad, we move more experienced shooters to make sure there is a good mix on each squad.

I know this is not a great strategy for the big matches, but we do it with no questions asked and no changes. But to be fair, we don't offer prizes nor notoriety in any way, so the stakes are low.

And Frank, keep on being the conscience of the sport. Guidance is needed in any sport to help it mature. Those of you that know, and care and are vocal will help provide that.

 

[Bender]

.........waiting on the Anonymous bitch reply.......... lol

 

[FatBoy]

its not just PRS this happens with. NRA slow fire has its share of guys who won't mark a cross fire as a miss, or who will suttlely coach by making comments like, "damn look at all those guys out the left".

Random squatting helps this shit too.

 

[morganlamprecht]

ive shot some matches where squads were randomized or based on rank...and some (top) guys would wander from 2-3 squads over to ask their shooting buddies in my squad what their wind holds were on our stage lol

 

[Rob01]

Flip side for me is not really being geographically near a lot of friends I shoot with, including my team mate, going to matches is a way to hang out with my friends and shoot and have fun. Time before and after a match is tight so having the day during the match to talk and hang out is nice. Not all about getting info. Breaking up people/friends due to some assumption of working together is kind of like making gun laws due to the bad actions of some and effecting the good people.

With being able to be on glass now at matches when people are shooting having to ask wind holds etc isn't as big of a deal. Talking about stages and wind is still done with not just friends but other members of the squad to help new shooters or people who are unsure. Did it a couple weeks ago. The whole squad was talking to each other. I had only known one other person in my squad before the match but we all talked about the wind while watching it through spotters. we all worked as a squad. We had people from a guy shooting his first match to fairly new shooters getting into the sport to people in jerseys who have shot a bunch. About 15 people in the squad and there was about 4 groups of two friends and the rest were there by themselves but we all kind of made friendships through the day while still getting to stay and talk with friends we like to shoot with.

Also having done this long enough it's pretty easy to look at a stage and make a plan for it. I rarely change after a quick look and knowing positions and target locations. I would rather have blind stages and be able to squad with my friends for the camaraderie.

 

[Lowlight]

They want to be pro shooters, there are no friends,

The purpose of these matches have changed as guys have monetized it,

it's not bad actions of a few, it's a common way of doing business that has an effect on the outcome.

Take the prizes and money away if you want to hang out with your friends

 

[Rob01]

Shooting a match this weekend with no prizes or money to hang with friends Frank you know the old feel we used to have back at Rifles Only at matches. Was a lot of fun hanging with everyone. If I went to a match with you I would want to be squadded with you as i never get to hang enough with you. Would suck taking that away more than the monetary side.

 

[Lowlight]

Rob, you're conflating the point

The point is, the matches I am talking about have been monetized, I am not speaking of smaller matches. I am going to one Saturday too just to hang with friends. Different animal, no prizes, no issue, squad where you want.

The fact is, just like guys who have figured out which EVENTS give more points, they also know how to manipulate it via squads. If I can go to a specific event because I know it increases my points vs going to a different location, that points to a problem. The fact a squad can manage almost double the points vs the rest of the field points to a problem.

Our Ship has sailed, the events are not like it used it be, and these guys did that on purpose. Because of the "Points Races" they have to attend more matches than they truly can afford, so they have to supplement their travel with prizes, be it cash or product. It's no longer a situation of heading to a destination like Rifles Only used to be. Nobody goes for the week like in the past.

You guys jumping back into some comps doesn't change the fact, it's not 2007 anymore.

 

[Rob01]

Oh I know it's not that time again unfortunately but I can hope. LOL I don't run any points races so the points don't matter to me either. It's all for a finale. I don't really care about a finale. I shoot a match for the match. When it's done it's done.

And don't be using big words like conflating to confuse me. LOL

 

[Lowlight]

Then just randomize guys signed up for the series...

If you are not running a points race it really should not matter, but the guys that are, it has an impact

There is a reason why this stuff has plateaued

 

[djarecke]

I'd like to know who was in Squad 1!

There's no $5000 prize purse for first place anymore, but randomizing squads is not a bad idea.

I'm one of those shooters that is really there to beat "myself", and although being part of an interactive squad makes the weekend enjoyable, I don't rely on others to make my wind calls for me. In fact, if any of you squad with me, I'll be happy to shoot before you and give you MY wind call! As Jacob at Rifles Only says - "It's just a game, guys!".

I've seen the top guys in action, and for the top 10, it wouldn't matter what you did. Make them shoot support side the entire weekend, take away their bags, no tripod, etc. They'd still dominate because they're incredibly talented.

 

[danthecarpenter]

So, a squad of elite shooters puts up an average score higher than squads comprised of mortal shooters. Were they gaming a little... Maybe or did they just kick everyone else’s ass?

 

[Mormegil87]

I really like shooting the South Dakota Steel Classic. The squads are randomized and it gives me an opportunity to shoot with people I’ve never shot with. Is it a bit of a bummer that I don’t get to shoot with friends, sure. But at least I’m out shooting.

 

[Assault116]

It's an interesting dynamic even when you take out the buddy thing. I've shot a lot of big matches over the last few years and have found that simply being squaded with one of the top guys makes me shoot better, regardless of how helpful they are with wind calls and such. It gives me a drive and chasing them makes me shoot better. It's a mental thing. That said, I've heard of stuff that IMHO borders on cheating by having a designated wind bitch for the whole match. Yeah it's not in the rules, but it's BS.

Then on the other hand I think there's a lot to be said for helping new guys on your squad so I'd hate to see the wind talk and off clock coaching go away as it is how I and many others have learned a ton.

If it's self squaded, chances are I'll squad with my buddies for the good times aspect, but I'm not going to go out of my way to request a squad assignment either. Even being pretty seasoned in this game, I still learn something nearly every time I shoot with someone new. I also get to meet new people and make friends I'd have never approached had I not been thrown on a squad with them so I actually enjoy the randomized squad. Notably as mentioned the South Dakota match is that way as was the heat stroke this last year (by PRS Rank). I also had an absolute blast at the Finale shooting with guys I'd met but never shot with before.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

From what I have seen since starting out, a lot of the same guys always try to squad up together, and I definitely think that it makes a difference. But PRS is largely supported by a core group of shooters as well, and I see a lot of the same people at every match. Randomizing the squads might get in the way of the whole reason the sport exists; it's to have fun.

Also, my experience has been that most squads are self-selected, and I don't think removing the choice from the competitors would go over very well. Most people that are starting out are there to shoot with a friend of theirs. And some of the guys that aren't competitive also have their own group of friends that shows up and shoots just for the experience as well.

I did get into a pretty good squad for the AI Core match, and it definitely helped me out to at least be able to pre-game some of the stages and sometimes see what right looks like. It's a serious disadvantage for someone to trying to be competitive to end up in a squad with mostly new guys. It's really hard to maintain perspective of what a good score on a stage is when everyone on your squad is just average. Good shooters squad with good shooters so that they force themselves to shoot better.

 

[RyanM]

I am going to my first ever sanctioned match in about 6 weeks.

There is definitely a super squad and I would say they are also common at the matches that I run. A lot of the folks choose to shoot with their buds which I currently don't do much about. I do try to get a mix of newbies and veterans though as I think both get something out of the experience.

I don't know if it really matters up here as our prizes are given out as random draw but if there are big prizes on the table I could see it becoming an issue.

 

[entropic86]

Having an established rotating shooting order is a must. Just about every major USPSA match does this. Few precision rifle matches require it. I still prefer to squad with a buddy I shoot with regularly.

 

[kanem]

To those of you have competed and complimented in the South Dakota Steel Classic Thank You!!!

It is a challenge to setup a fair match for all competing. Even defining the word competing is a challenge for each person. Everyone has a different goal and level of expectations when they enter any match. I have been blessed to shoot a lot of matches across the country and rarely do I come across anyone who feels that they have shot to there potential. You always want some sort of a redue some where along the way. I encourage everyone shooting matches to look inside them selves and truly examine the experience they are taking from it.

I personally know all of the shooters from the super squad sited in Franks post and have spoken to 2 of them. They shot in there assigned squad they didn’t pick it. 2 of them didn’t even sign up until the week prior to the event. All of the shooters have been in the top 50 and many of them in the top 10 of the PRS. They flat out shoot lights out consistently and my hats of to them for that.

This leaves the question of should they have been split up to share there knowledge with other shooters? I personally leave in your hands to answer this when you consider running a national level match. But I feel that the result would have likely been very close to the same regardless of where they were squadded.

I personally feel it is a bit short sighted to say that match shooting has flatten out. If any thing it has exploded and is more accessible than it ever has been in the past. With your choice of national and local matches nearly every weekend of the year. When people talk about the good old years when it was started and it was X and Y I personally kind of chuckle to myself. When you look at just the equipment and improvements to technique it has developed. And I can tell you that it was just as hard to break into the inner circle of shooting when I started and now like then you have to earn your position speaking on behalf of my own experience. We all need to be careful when we don’t embrace change as it can tell the truth of who we are as a person.

My suggestion is if you enjoy shooting and like being challenged find a match go and have fun. Weather your competing to win or gaining experience to make better shot on a game animal. Remember that the only shot fired back at the people who choose to compete are from someone behind a keyboard.

Again thank you to all of the competitors who have shot the SDSC and good shooting to all of those who are competing in 2018.

Mike

 

[Mormegil87]

Thanks Mike.

 

[Lowlight]

It definitely plateaued they repeating the same thing over and over, the fact you can find more is not an example of success in this case.

The same people are chasing the same people, new blood pops in and drops out. It's watered down.

The equipment has gotten better but the stages have not caught up, in fact, they go the other way. Shorter ranges, more contrived bullshit stuff that has no practical application, free recoil, enough said.

It's closing itself off and competing with each other. There is stuff behind the scenes that is not very public but is quite telling.

The sense of entitlement has grown, the letter posted on FB this week proves that guy contacting a sponsor and telling them thanks for sending a worthless piece of paper because they offered $250 off a build. They laid into them for donating a scrap of paper.

The .22 leagues have more going for them as well as the club matches. The National Matches have become games to highlight their favorite sons, in fact, they don't' want you there if you're not up to snuff, their words, not mine and I have the screenshots to prove it.

Contrived is not innovation.

Sure they would have shot well regardless, but when an entire squad can play off each other, the score move in a positive direction. Split them up and see what happens, see how it affects the others in a positive way vs guys seeing this from afar. Perception matters and the perception is not good.

 

[Rob01]

The sense of entitlement has grown, the letter posted on FB this week proves that guy contacting a sponsor and telling them thanks for sending a worthless piece of paper because they offered $250 off a build. They laid into them for donating a scrap of paper.

Where was that posted? I would like to go post to the stupid entitled son of a bitch that he needs to shut his mouth and be happy with anything that is sent to a match.

Also would like to know the sponsor to let them know that not everyone is an idiot like the poster and we appreciate the donation.

 

[Mormegil87]

I'm not a great shooter, not by a long shot. I usually finish middle of the pack at the SD Steel Classic and finished middle of the pack at The Grind. Even in local matches I'm a top 30 shooter and maybe on a good day top 10. I guess I've never felt the need to get into or out of a squad to help my positioning. In the end I really don't care if people are forming super squads in an effort to finish higher or better. If they feel the need to do that, then so be it as long as the MD is cool with it. He/She is the one that has to answer to the shooters and sponsors. I'm there to compete against me and me alone. I can't control what other shooters are doing or not doing. Nor, can I control what the MDs allow. I can only control how I shoot and how I conduct myself. Nothing more and nothing less. I don't care about jersey's or logos, I just don't. Others may feel differently but that's how I feel.

The SDSC may be the exception to the rule as far as national matches go. Mike and crew randomize the squads which helps but it's also a smaller match. Less than 100 shooters each year. It's also more of a field match with the obviously exception of the PRS required stages. It's the only national match that I plan on shooting every year so long as the match continues and I'm invited back. To me it's well worth the 10+ hour drive for numerous reasons. I had planned on shooting the GAP Grind this year again but am thinking of maybe going to the NRL match just for a change of pace. Next year I'll shoot the SDSC again and maybe give the SH Team Challenge a shot or the match at Rifles Only.

-Garrett

 

[Sheldon N]

I've shot on super squads and know a lot of the guys who would be super squad "regulars". There is some truth in the above comments from this thread, both on the positive and negative side.

IMO though, the #1 reason that super squads happen is because these guys are all type A personalities who want to win. They want to be right there with their primary competition, seeing what score they had, whether they are up or down on points, if there's an advantage to be had that they would have missed if they weren't right there.

 

[superde]

There is a symbiotic relationship in groups, whether it's your friends or new people. If you squadded with people you don't know, your friends and sharing wind calls by the 3rd stage FWIW. I really enjoy shooting with friends I don't see but a few times of year, and is one of the main reasons I still participate in my 40's. If everything was blind stage and random squads, it would become worklike and I believe many would stop shooting.

Sheldon N, I think your second paragraph is spot on as well. Maybe we need scoreboards on the range like the PGA Tour.

 

[Assault116]

It definitely plateaued they repeating the same thing over and over, the fact you can find more is not an example of success in this case.

The same people are chasing the same people, new blood pops in and drops out. It's watered down.

The equipment has gotten better but the stages have not caught up, in fact, they go the other way. Shorter ranges, more contrived bullshit stuff that has no practical application, free recoil, enough said.

It's closing itself off and competing with each other. There is stuff behind the scenes that is not very public but is quite telling.

The sense of entitlement has grown, the letter posted on FB this week proves that guy contacting a sponsor and telling them thanks for sending a worthless piece of paper because they offered $250 off a build. They laid into them for donating a scrap of paper.

The .22 leagues have more going for them as well as the club matches. The National Matches have become games to highlight their favorite sons, in fact, they don't' want you there if you're not up to snuff, their words, not mine and I have the screenshots to prove it.

Contrived is not innovation.

Sure they would have shot well regardless, but when an entire squad can play off each other, the score move in a positive direction. Split them up and see what happens, see how it affects the others in a positive way vs guys seeing this from afar. Perception matters and the perception is not good.

Then post the links, screen shots, etc, show the world that hasn't seen these things and blow it wide open so everyone can see and it will have a chance to get handled by the community. If you aren't willing to do that, then you are just as much a part of the problem as the perpetrators IMO or you are doing more damage by creating hearsay, and suspicion vs nipping the problem when it pops up. You've claimed multiple times to have examples of this behavior but you won't name names or post copies for everyone to see. Just do it, out the fuckers, and drop the mic, I guarantee that will have a hell of a lot more impact than bitching about it without naming names. Even if it's some twat trying to do this crap anonymously, someone will figure it out and nail it down, and then out them. Those individuals need to be exposed and cut out like a fucking cancer as that is exactly what they are.

As to the National Matches, well I have yet to see any of them exclude anyone by any basis other than bad sportsmanship or the match filling up.

I know there are some that have started to argue that there's a need for a qualification process for certain matches in order to gain points or to limit the number of series points matches in response to trying to fix the points system that a lot of people think is broken. I don't agree but when I saw that, I also saw a lot of other spit-balling to try and come up with something to make it a more level playing field. If that's what you are referring to by "they don't want you there if you're not up to snuff" then I guess you read that differently than I do as the whole point of keeping track of series points and hosting a finale is to find and crown the best. If not the whole series might as well go out the window and start handing out participation trophies.

As to the squadding thing, I've thought about it a bit more and quite frankly, you don't want it randomized, you want it selected in a manor more like what they did at the heat stroke last year, which I thought was a good way to do it too. For example for all the guys registered for the match they put the top ranked guy on Squad 1, Second was squad 2 etc through #20, then number #21 was on Squad 1, and the pattern repeated. This put a top guy on every squad all the way down to a New guy. By a completely random draw which was what I understand they do for the South Dakota match you still end up with a squad that has a pretty strong set of shooters and some not so much. in 2017 I ended up on a squad with 3 guys in the top 10 that were there, along with myself (mid fifties in series points) and some that were lower and a couple brand new guys. Those couple new guys got a damn fine learning experience that weekend. But there were also squads that didn't have a ringer on them that didn't get that advantage too because it's random.

 

[Rob01]

Soon just squadding will be more complicated than doing your taxes and about as fun to shoot a match. LOL

 

[Lowlight]

Yes, it is all hearsay, I am making all this up ...

They know who does what and they know who wrote the letter, in fact, I saw a post just like week laughing about it.

They don't care, nobody cares really, do you not think when I was talking with them I did not mention names? Do you not think they know who does what, they are not gonna change anything.

Personally, I don't see it being hard to randomize a squad, the example above is good in, the top guy in squad 1, next guy in squad 2, when you get the end you repeat, that is pretty easy. It's easier to randomize a squad then to keep adding friends in

The person last week was Julio Salado, he posted it

Read if you think i am making shit up

I am not supporting the series, so I am damn sure not gonna help them either, the fact this stuff proves my point is what it is,

 

[Assault116]

Frank, I wasn't accusing you of making this shit up, but when you don't name names, it leads people to speculate and make assumptions and create hearsay which makes the problem worse because it gives these assholes a smokescreen of random speculation to hide behind and point in another direction. This issue is something that pisses me off and I, and a lot of others I know, haven't seen this stuff (names etc) and don't know about who's doing this crap. There's a lot of guys that simply don't follow the online stuff that close. We shoot, we train, rinse and repeat and these kind of assholes are starting to make those of us that play by the rules, work hard at it enjoy and support the sport look bad by association.

I know a lot of guys that have no clue this crap is going on or if they have heard something, have no idea who's doing it (Like me). That's why I say you need to blow it up when you hear about it. Because honestly, how can we start to police ourselves when we don't know who's doing this shit? When you talk about these incidents, and don't name names, we can't do anything about it, because we don't know what you do. We want to help but the lack of specifics makes it near impossible. You have contacts and connections most of us do not, you hear this stuff when many of us don't. Yet what the other shooters can do is turn these dipshits into total outcasts at matches, refuse to shoot with them, and otherwise help to produce pressure to get rid of this shit. Look what happened to Mr. Dawson when he pulled his shit and the rest of the shooters found out about it. It got elevated and heated in a hurry.

As for Julio Salado, If I'm reading it right, he's a USPSA shooter, not a PRS or NRL shooter/member so I fail to understand how this incident is somehow indicative of said problem in either series. I assume you're just using him as an example, but the point is valid, he's outside the sphere of influence of the Precision Rifle community.

You say you're not supporting the series and are damn sure not going to help them, well then why do you feel the need to prove this particular point, but still have yet to openly name names of this issue that you insinuate is rampant in the PRS and or the NRL? If that is indeed the case, Like I said before, OUT THE FUCKERS, and help the shooters clean it up.

 

[morganlamprecht]

 

[Lowlight]

I am not the governing body, I can only control what I can control, I cannot control what others do in this situation. My advice has been ignored since pointing out the situation on day one.

I have a blacklist, I know of others with a blacklist, maybe you need to ask the governing body what they are doing before you ask me anything. After all, you pay them a fee to organize and manage this Series.

What you are asking me to do, as a fan in the stands, is to officiate for them. That would be like NASCAR asking a random fan to supply a list of rule violations they saw during a race. NASCAR just penalized 13 cars this weekend for an initial inspection violation. The teams and driver names are public. Ask each series where their list of DQs is, do you know who has been DQ'd or who has been blacklisted, or who has been suspended for any period of time ? If the answer is no, ask why, you pay for them to keep it fair and level. I know names, you asking me to tell you those names is total bullshit. I pay attention, which is weird because I am not a paying member of a series, you all are.

Back in the day before the series, down at Rifles Only where all this started, we let people know who was not welcome and why. And we shot a lot fewer people per event. Pull something un-sportsmanship like at Rifles Only today and see what happens to you. Heck, I remember the time Kevin Elppers dumped a pistol round in the ground rather than make any attempt to engage a no-point pistol target, I made it public and loud in typical Frank fashion. Jacob & I DQ'd David Tubb at a SHC Event.

So spare me I am part of the problem bullshit. I am nothing more than a mirror pointed right back at you. Maybe a window, pick your poison.

Do your own work, petition the people you pay, as I am not asking you for anything. Last time I checked you and I didn't have a financial relationship, I owe you nothing. They know the same names I know, if you can't understand that, who's problem is it.

People trust me with this information because I am not afraid like so many of you are. These are open secrets, much of this easy to see if you bother to look. You're so afraid of not fitting in you'll spin and justify any level of bad behavior, hell look how many guys pay into these series knowing they will never shoot a single event. So they pony up feeding the top 10% just to say they are part of the in-crowd. There are less 300 guys actually trying to shoot the finale vs 1500+ paying members. The year before only like 180 guys shot enough matches to even begin to qualify for the finale. more clues, you have access to the members, look at 2017 and figure it out.

I do my homework, it's about time the rest of you start doing your own.

Remember this, The NRL started without any input from me, they were disgruntled without any of my help. I am not dividing it, and if I am it's too weak to survive especially when you consider what they have actually done to remedy these problems. 4 sales of the series since 2012 should be your first clue this is bullshit. and you're the one being lead by the nose, not me.

The fixes are there, you just have to be willing to accept the reality of them. Governing bodies have to govern, sometimes that means you have to make the hard decisions.

I am still amazed how many people will say, they agree with everything I am saying, but don't like how I say it, do any of you listen to yourselves?

 

[Jensey]

As a new precision shooter, I want to be able to self squad. I'm not trying to game it, or cheat, I'm just trying to learn. It is still overwhelming to me to get all my crap straight for each stage--what bags, what dope, whether to dial or hold each distance. I have a LOT of stupid questions that I would prefer to ask someone that I know at least a little instead of a complete stranger. I would prefer to not feel like an idiot in front of a complete stranger that I don't know whether they are helpful and understanding or someone less understanding that will be bothered by me. So IMHO, taking away self squadding will discourage beginners from competing. I am stubborn and want to learn enough that I will shoot with anyone and I will risk looking like a fool. I showed up to my first match not knowing anyone, with no bags and not a clue what I was doing. But I would be much more comfortable shooting with one of the few people I have met so far. There are no local matches near me. I am traveling 7-8 hours to matches, so if I am going to travel that far, then I am going to shoot a 2 day match. I don't have the option to shoot with friends at a local match.