Your technocrat elite knows best

[pmclaine]

So your argument is that Ryan is correct, but there are bigger issues to deal with?

No we need to cut the BS. The deficit spending and the waste are huge. In arguing for Ocare Obama famously said our current medicare suffers $500 mill in fraud a year so his program will be a bargain. It never occurred to him that accepting such waste should be reason to fire everyone in Washington.

Neither is a drop in the bucket. If you want real savings you're going to have to find it somewhere else.

Okay so neither will fund Bernies vision of a Socialist US but they would make things better for the West Virginia widower currently getting nothing while we give free stuff to illegals, SSDI scammers and corrupt dictators.

In the conspiracy theory sense?

I can add and come up with a correct sum. Look at the regulation designed to pull people into the cities. There is valid reason for the Electoral College. Im guessing you see that bit of genius as corrupt.

Bullshit. The majority of GDP is generated in a few hundred urban counties. I think something like 500 counties product 64% of GDP and the other 2500 counties produce only 36%.

Than let the cities occupants eat silicon chips. Wall themselves in and separate from the rest of the country. No one will miss them. Leave us with our guns and bibles.

 

[pmclaine]

Foreign aid is 0.6% of government spending, only about $50B per year.

The highest estimate for the cost of illegal immigration is President Trump's guess at $250B. If that is true then it costs a little over 3% of government spending.

So put together you've now accounted for close to 4% of government spending. Where is the other 96% going?

Lets pull out of the ME and run a military in our borders. The Pentagon is the Leviathon. I want a strong mil but let others do their own fighting.

Buying and abandoning MRAPS all over the world sucks.

All these Admirals and Generals speaking out are just sour grapes that their Raytheon consults are being threatened.

 

[SethB]

Suburbs are around cities. How are you segregating city v suburb tax data?

"Per capita income rose in cities from $25,170 in 2010 to $29,490 in 2015, a gain of 17.2 percent, and from $28,919 to $32,715 in the suburbs, a gain of 13.1 percent."

Big Cities Are Getting Richer, Leaving Suburbs Behind

It’s a massive shift in the dynamic between outlying communities and urban cores.

www.governing.com

In looking for this I found some interesting stuff. Richard Florida had a piece about how well suburbs are doing, but when you dig you'll see that it isn't the same suburbs. Much as Ryan and I have said, a new suburb comes along every few years and people move.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.citylab.com

What you'll see from the data is that suburbanites make slightly more money than urbanites, growing at a slower rate, but that the wealthy are disproportionately likely to live in cities, as are the poor.

If you included rural data you'd see that rural areas are the poorest places in America.

The censes data is interesting but their definition of "urban" isn't useful.

 

[SethB]

Lets pull out of the ME and run a military in our borders. The Pentagon is the Leviathon. I want a strong mil but let others do their own fighting.

Buying and abandoning MRAPS all over the world sucks.

All these Admirals and Generals speaking out are just sour grapes that their Raytheon consults are being threatened.

I've been making this argument for decades, now.

 

[SethB]

I can add and come up with a correct sum. Look at the regulation designed to pull people into the cities.

The US has been using regulation and subsidies to push people into the suburbs since Coolidge promoted zoning and Roosevelt promoted subsidized home ownership.

Than let the cities occupants eat silicon chips. Wall themselves in and separate from the rest of the country. No one will miss them. Leave us with our guns and bibles.

When my wife and I got together she wanted a place in the suburbs. I told her that I want to walk to restaurants or shoot deer from my porch and nothing in between.

Ironically, we live in the suburbs. But once she's done with her current program we are going to move to one or the other.

I have a pet theory that finance and ownership are sucking capital and value from rural America and taking it to NYC, SFBA, LA, Chicago, etc. I have some pet solutions as well.

 

[deersniper]

No. In recent times they are pushing people into cities or "priority funding areas". And they make it more expensive to build a house. They want everyone nut to butt in town homes or apartments.

 

[SethB]

No. In recent times they are pushing people into cities or "priority funding areas". And they make it more expensive to build a house. They want everyone nut to butt in town homes or apartments.

As someone that supports dense, walkable cities I can tell you that "they" are doing no such thing. If they were, it would be happening. Instead, many major cities are actually losing population because prices are going up as wealthy suburbanites move back in and bit up home prices.

I support inexpensive housing, density and conservation or rural land and farmland. I don't think any of that ought to be at odds or controversial.

 

[deersniper]

You can whine about suburbs being spoiled when they can pay for their own infrastructure maintenance and replacement. So basically never.

I just want to remind everyone what got this thread tangent started


So according to that suburbs don't pay for the roads they use. So it's ok to put robbers rapist and other scum into their neighborhood.

Which crashes property values then makes people move to the next suburb. Perfect.

 

[SethB]

I just want to remind everyone what got this thread tangent started


So according to that suburbs don't pay for the roads they use. So it's ok to put robbers rapist and other scum into their neighborhood.

Which crashes property values then makes people move to the next suburb. Perfect.

Suburbs don't pay for their infrastructure. They can't afford it. They often can't afford to replace their leaky pipes either. Or, in some cases, their own septic tanks.

Like I said above, what happens is that suburbs age poorly and people move. Which is causing a burgeoning problem with suburban poverty. As people move back into the city the poor are displaced to the older suburbs and suburbanites move to newer suburbs, and so on.

 

[deersniper]

Ok I give up if a couple of you think forcing landlords to accept section 8 or giving out $3500 / month section 8 vouchers so the scum can live in real nice areas is acceptable.

 

[lash]

...
I support inexpensive housing, density and conservation or rural land and farmland. I don't think any of that ought to be at odds or controversial.

That’s a great statement. How could anyone disagree? Why would there be controversy?

Except...

How do you propose to create that inexpensive housing and make it truly work as a solution and not just a show of success?
Rent control? Been done and it fails.
Use taxes to build it and make people live there? Good luck; also been done and failed.

I’m curious to hear your solution. I think that the whole world would like to hear your viable solution.

 

[SethB]

Ok I give up if a couple of you think forcing landlords to accept section 8 or giving out $3500 / month section 8 vouchers so the scum can live in real nice areas is acceptable.

Out of all the things I have to worry about that doesn't crack my top 25. And my family and I own and manage 50 doors between us.

 

[SethB]

That’s a great statement. How could anyone disagree? Why would there be controversy?

Except...

How do you propose to create that inexpensive housing and make it truly work as a solution and not just a show of success?
Rent control? Been done and it fails.
Use taxes to build it and make people live there? Good luck; also been done and failed.

I’m curious to hear your solution. I think that the whole world would like to hear your viable solution.

I've been working in Los Angeles for the last few years. I can tell you from experience that if you 1) shortened the permit process, 2) reduced the excessive open space and common area requirements and 3) reduced parking requirements, that I, and people like me, could build housing relatively inexpensively. Under those circumstances I could probably build apartments for $225,000 a door and rent them for $1,250 a month for a one bedroom. If you increased the number of units allowed on a parcel then prices would fall even more. I assumed paying current market prices for the dirt. More land zoned for more housing means cheaper housing.

By Los Angeles standards that is cheap... about half price, in fact.

Do you support deregulation in this fashion?

 

[308pirate]

Urbanized areas trend wealthier and produce the majority of economic activity. Ironically it’s rural areas that have the greatest percentage of government employees.

LOL GTFO

 

[Mike Casselton]

I've been working in Los Angeles for the last few years. I can tell you from experience that if you 1) shortened the permit process, 2) reduced the excessive open space and common area requirements and 3) reduced parking requirements, that I, and people like me, could build housing relatively inexpensively. Under those circumstances I could probably build apartments for $225,000 a door and rent them for $1,250 a month for a one bedroom. If you increased the number of units allowed on a parcel then prices would fall even more. I assumed paying current market prices for the dirt. More land zoned for more housing means cheaper housing.

By Los Angeles standards that is cheap... about half price, in fact.

Do you support deregulation in this fashion?

Nope.

Apartments and multi family housing are crime magnets.
I pointed that out above and you quoted me, but failed to address it at all.
No surprise there.

You could offer me 10m per year for free and it still wouldn't get me to move into that overpriced shit hole of a state.
You can have your overcrowded, crime ridden, everyone has a therapist cities. I'll take the burbs and flyover areas.

You two are pissing up a rope, trying to convince us that the way of the future is city living.

 

[pmclaine]

"Per capita income rose in cities from $25,170 in 2010 to $29,490 in 2015, a gain of 17.2 percent, and from $28,919 to $32,715 in the suburbs, a gain of 13.1 percent."

Big Cities Are Getting Richer, Leaving Suburbs Behind

It’s a massive shift in the dynamic between outlying communities and urban cores.

www.governing.com

In looking for this I found some interesting stuff. Richard Florida had a piece about how well suburbs are doing, but when you dig you'll see that it isn't the same suburbs. Much as Ryan and I have said, a new suburb comes along every few years and people move.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.citylab.com

What you'll see from the data is that suburbanites make slightly more money than urbanites, growing at a slower rate, but that the wealthy are disproportionately likely to live in cities, as are the poor.

If you included rural data you'd see that rural areas are the poorest places in America.

The censes data is interesting but their definition of "urban" isn't useful.

What you are missing is the disparity in rich vs poor and how the power brokers are fine with that.

If the cities are the model than you end up with the rich and their service slaves they allow to live under their noblesse oblige.

You have a choice of high rise concierge living or tenament.

The country may make less but its more likely they make enough and the health of their communities is better.

Any healthy society is judged by the health of its middle class.

The last regime was intent on killing the middle class.

A healthy middle class is the foil of tyrants.

Keep an eye on China.

Seems the people of Hong Kong like the idea of owning the fruit of their labor.

 

[pmclaine]

I've been working in Los Angeles for the last few years. I can tell you from experience that if you 1) shortened the permit process, 2) reduced the excessive open space and common area requirements and 3) reduced parking requirements, that I, and people like me, could build housing relatively inexpensively. Under those circumstances I could probably build apartments for $225,000 a door and rent them for $1,250 a month for a one bedroom. If you increased the number of units allowed on a parcel then prices would fall even more. I assumed paying current market prices for the dirt. More land zoned for more housing means cheaper housing.

By Los Angeles standards that is cheap... about half price, in fact.

Do you support deregulation in this fashion?

Los Angeles?

The place with Shit Tracker and home less laying in the street.

Im guessing you appreciate the homeless as they are effective for wiping your feet on before entering your high rise.

 

[pmclaine]

I support inexpensive housing, density and conservation or rural land and farmland. I don't think any of that ought to be at odds or controversial.

".....and if we would just increase abortions than reduce life saving medical care to all the chumps we could eliminate those in the population that make my enjoyment of farms and open spaces such a chore."


You dont want to say it but that is what you desire.

 

[SethB]

Nope.

Apartments and multi family housing are crime magnets.
I pointed that out above and you quoted me, but failed to address it at all.
No surprise there.

You could offer me 10m per year for free and it still wouldn't get me to move into that overpriced shit hole of a state.
You can have your overcrowded, crime ridden, everyone has a therapist cities. I'll take the burbs and flyover areas.

You two are pissing up a rope, trying to convince us that the way of the future is city living.

MF is not a "crime magnet." All things being equal there is more crime in a MF district. The real "crime magnet" is industrial space, but I'm willing to bet you don't log onto the internet to bitch about it.

Hell, I bet you'd be surprised to see a crime heat map and find out what the south looks like!

 

[SethB]

".....and if we would just increase abortions than reduce life saving medical care to all the chumps we could eliminate those in the population that make my enjoyment of farms and open spaces such a chore."


You dont want to say it but that is what you desire.

Why don't you try arguing with what I'm writing rather than spend your time building straw men to demolish.

Most people indicate a preference for walkable urban living. Why do you think people are willing to pay so much to live that way?

 

[SethB]

Los Angeles?

The place with Shit Tracker and home less laying in the street.

Im guessing you appreciate the homeless as they are effective for wiping your feet on before entering your high rise.

Do you have anything of substance to write, or is this all you can do?

 

[pmclaine]

The US has been using regulation and subsidies to push people into the suburbs since Coolidge promoted zoning and Roosevelt promoted subsidized home ownership.

Paid taxes on real estate lately?

Ive been living in the same place for 46 plus years.

People are being forced out of their single families as taxes increase to feed the ever greater BS service bureaucracy of the urban area.

That was than this is now.

It will be interesting to see how these leviathans fare going forward now that Trump has ended much of the Federal subsidy of Real Estate taxes.

People will begin to rebel as the local govts continue to hit them and they no longer claim it federally.

Although I will suffer I like it for the crying it created in the high dollar real estate areas.

Being middle class I just hope that crash comes while I can still afford to live in my present home.

 

[pmclaine]

Why don't you try arguing with what I'm writing rather than spend your time building straw men to demolish.

Most people indicate a preference for walkable urban living. Why do you think people are willing to pay so much to live that way?

Talk about straw men "Most people...."

Any sentence starting with that is bullshit.

The car made America free. Its mobility.

Im fine with another form of mobility but it must be controlled by the individual and the govt has no authority to take that mobility away.

Self driving cars, ride sharing etc is just part of a plan to hold people in place and control them.

 

[SethB]

Paid taxes on real estate lately?

Yes, I wrote a check out for $5,000 for six months worth of property taxes about a month ago.

Ive been living in the same place for 46 plus years.

People are being forced out of their single families as taxes increase to feed the ever greater BS service bureaucracy of the urban area.

That was than this is now.

What is "the urban area?" Chicago? New York? Dubai?

It will be interesting to see how these leviathans fare going forward now that Trump has ended much of the Federal subsidy of Real Estate taxes.

People will begin to rebel as the local govts continue to hit them and they no longer claim it federally.

Although I will suffer I like it for the crying it created in the high dollar real estate areas.

Being middle class I just hope that crash comes while I can still afford to live in my present home.

Trump did better than that, he limited the mortgage interest deduction which is a subsidy for home sellers.

Why would a crash impact your costs? It should reduce your taxes.

FWIW, I think we should replace consumption taxes and property taxes with a tax on land values.

 

[SethB]

Talk about straw men "Most people...."

Any sentence starting with that is bullshit.

The car made America free. Its mobility.

Im fine with another form of mobility but it must be controlled by the individual and the govt has no authority to take that mobility away.

Self driving cars, ride sharing etc is just part of a plan to hold people in place and control them.

So government subsidized cars on government owned roads was what made Americans free? Before that they were suffering from an over reliance on private transit systems?

And now spending two hours a day commuting gives them the freedom that they've always wanted? Paying 60% of their income for housing and transit really sets them up for retirement?

Do you listen to yourself?

If you took a woman too old to drive like my grandma and move her from her walkable neighborhood to a car dependent home in the suburbs to what degree has her freedom increased?

 

[pmclaine]

Affluent people tend to live in cities and pay for their children to go to private school. I get the distinct impression that most of the people posting here 1) don't know what affluence looks like and 2) haven't been a city since Carter was President.

Cities definitely provide for themselves. When you break down who is using government benefits it's a surprising number of rural dwellers, and as time goes by the suburbs are becoming poorer and poorer.

Your suburb might be nice, and shiny and new. But "suburbs" have been around long enough that many of them are as rough as the "inner cities ever were.

Meanwhile, cities are in the midst of a 20 year renaissance that leaves them looking nothing like they supposedly did 30 years ago.

Ryan is right. And all the statistics (which you all conveniently fail to provide) back him up.

Do I need to start posting a reading list?

Why thank you for enlightening us hicks.

You must wash after you come here and I bet you cant wait to tell the people at the cocktail party you spoke to "little people" today.

 

[pmclaine]

So government subsidized cars on government owned roads was what made Americans free? Before that they were suffering from an over reliance on private transit systems?

And now spending two hours a day commuting gives them the freedom that they've always wanted? Paying 60% of their income for housing and transit really sets them up for retirement?

Do you listen to yourself?

If you took a woman too old to drive like my grandma and move her from her walkable neighborhood to a car dependent home in the suburbs to what degree has her freedom increased?

Holy fuck are you Nancy Pelosi or Liz Warren?

You didnt build that must be your mantra.

The govt doesnt own anything or provide anything.

It takes and redistributes.

In the best case its works are for the public good.

In the present age its done for political gain.

Go sit in your govt owned living room and get off your govt owned computer.

 

[SethB]

Why thank you for enlightening us hicks.

You must wash after you come here and I bet you cant wait to tell the people at the cocktail party you spoke to "little people" today.

Not at all. Like I said, I grew up in a rural area and was raised by parents that were from rural areas. My dad was a logger.

I still don't know anything about you. I take it you don't live on public utilities?

 

[SethB]

The govt doesnt own anything or provide anything.

It takes and redistributes.

In the best case its works are for the public good.

So public utilities, publicly owned roads, etc are what exactly? Redistribution for the public good?

How do you think the private utilities and road operators felt when they had to compete with government programs?

 

[pmclaine]

Yes, I wrote a check out for $5,000 for six months worth of property taxes about a month ago.

And what did you get for it? I pay a bit more than you based on my quarterly payments and guess my 9000sf plot is much smaller than yours

What is "the urban area?" Chicago? New York? Dubai?

Where it all began. In the past the people that lived in my area would wish your "chains set lightly upon you." Now they are you.

Trump did better than that, he limited the mortgage interest deduction which is a subsidy for home sellers.

Why would a crash impact your costs? It should reduce your taxes.

FWIW, I think we should replace consumption taxes and property taxes with a tax on land values.

Yes a crash will bring balance back to the tax taker/tax payer relationship. You can only get so much from one well.

I was a Herman Cain 9,9,9 planner.

You buy something, you pay your tax, than its yours. The govt doesnt get to double tax or perpetual tax, otherwise you never really own the property.

 

[deersniper]

Out of all the things I have to worry about that doesn't crack my top 25. And my family and I own and manage 50 doors between us.

So it's your parents money you are playing with.

Do you even own guns ?

 

[SethB]

So it's your parents money you are playing with.

Do you even own guns ?

Of course I do. Most of them didn't make the move with me, though.

 

[308pirate]

So put together you've now accounted for close to 4% of government spending. Where is the other 96% going?

Defense (constitutional)
Interstate commerce (constitutional)
Welfare (personal and corporate, both unconstitutional)
Energy (unconstitutional)
Education (unconstitutional)
Research (unconstitutional)
Federal lands (unconstitutional)
And a bunch of other shit (almost all unconstitutional)

 

[308pirate]

Suburbs are around cities. How are you segregating city v suburb tax data?

Wondering that myself.......

Plus the majority of people who generate that economic activity in those cities don't live there.

 

[SethB]

Wondering that myself.......

Plus the majority of people who generate that economic activity in those cities don't live there.

That may have been true in the past but increasingly people that commute long distances for work have low wage jobs.

I mean, all those $600,000-$1,200,000 condos in downtown LA aren't being scooped up by Hooters waitresses.

They know where people live based on where they file their taxes, which is their home. That's why urban incomes are rising more quickly than suburban incomes. Rural incomes are downright depressing.

 

[308pirate]

That may have been true in the past but increasingly people that commute long distances for work have low wage jobs.

I mean, all those $600,000-$1,200,000 condos in downtown LA aren't being scooped up by Hooters waitresses.

They know where people live based on where they file their taxes, which is their home. That's why urban incomes are rising more quickly than suburban incomes. Rural incomes are downright depressing.

Sure, if you say so.

Showing your data would be a bonus.

 

[Rthur]

Stack them like hogs in a confinement shed:

Why are these L.A. people sleeping in stacked pods? It's not just the cost of housing

No private bedrooms for these L.A. residents. They choose to live in pods or rooms filled with bunk beds.

www.latimes.com

Straight from the source.

R

 

[pmclaine]

Stack them like hogs in a confinement shed:

Why are these L.A. people sleeping in stacked pods? It's not just the cost of housing

No private bedrooms for these L.A. residents. They choose to live in pods or rooms filled with bunk beds.

www.latimes.com

Straight from the source.

R

Perfect for warehousing the younger generations that have been set upon the world heavy with debt, no marketable skills and a govt shipping out their opportunities.

Aldous Huxley would write a book about it.

 

[Rthur]

Perfect for warehousing the younger generations that have been set upon the world heavy with debt, no marketable skills and a govt shipping out their opportunities.

Aldous Huxley would write a book about it.

It reminded me of the quarters of the Asian girls on Cloud Atlas.

R